The ideological roots of the idea of 'toxic masculinity'.

[Crazy_ball]

@something_else Being raised by a single mother because she thought she could be 'strong and independent', not growing up with two parents as a result of this. 

Happy, or you want more sob-story? 

[mr_engineer]

8 minutes ago, LordFall said:

Yes low value men have to do better and bring value to the world otherwise they are mostly useless and will be ignored. More news at 5 pm. 

Here's the thing, though - feminism is not doing any favors to your 'high-value men' either. Whether you define 'high-value' in terms of looks, money or even performative morality. Justin Baldoni got accused of sexual-assault, even though he had a TED-talk on feminism. 

[something_else]

2 minutes ago, Crazy_ball said:

@something_else Being raised by a single mother because she thought she could be 'strong and independent', not growing up with two parents as a result of this. 

Happy, or you want more sob-story? 

I actually grew up with a single mother who also saw herself as strong and independent as well, so I do understand that experience to some extent.

That’s partly why I’m unsure about the conclusion though. Lots of people grow up in single-parent households for all sorts of reasons. Why do you see that as specifically a result of feminism rather than just the choices or circumstances of two individuals?

Do you think your life would necessarily have been better if your parents had stayed together? In my case, although I was upset about it at the time, in hindsight it probably was the best outcome. I would have had more influence from my dad if they’d stayed married, but the relationship between my parents was unhealthy in other ways, so growing up in that environment might actually have been worse.

[LordFall]

That's what I mean by you have a narrow understanding view of feminism. You're looking at it from a social construct point of view, not a humans right point of view. Our social order is built on free enterprise and the freedom to own property and a high value man is someone who provides in abundance for himself and others. 

If you're watching videos online of women shit talking men and then you go online and make threads against feminism I think you're the one that's losing it brother. 

 

[Crazy_ball]

@something_else When you have a mother who hates men and doesn't have a very positive view of men to begin with, she's going to subconsciously make compromises in a marriage that shouldn't be made to begin with. Then, the relationship will go downhill and eventually fall apart. This will reinforce the feminist ideology and that's what'll lead to the decision to stay a single mother, as opposed to remarrying. 

The result? The child doesn't get to see a working relationship at home. 

[mr_engineer]

@LordFallThanks for the assumptions about a random person on the internet. Anything else? 

 

[something_else]

2 minutes ago, Crazy_ball said:

@something_else When you have a mother who hates men and doesn't have a very positive view of men to begin with, she's going to subconsciously make compromises in a marriage that shouldn't be made to begin with. Then, the relationship will go downhill and eventually fall apart. This will reinforce the feminist ideology and that's what'll lead to the decision to stay a single mother, as opposed to remarrying. 

The result? The child doesn't get to see a working relationship at home. 

I can understand the point about children benefiting from seeing a healthy relationship at home. That seems pretty widely supported.

Where I’m less convinced is the step where feminism necessarily means a mother hates men or can’t sustain a relationship. Plenty of women who would describe themselves as feminists are in long-term marriages, and plenty of non-feminist couples divorce.

It sounds like the bigger issue in the situation you’re describing is a parent having a very negative view of men, rather than feminism itself. Those aren’t necessarily the same thing.

[Crazy_ball]

1 minute ago, something_else said:

Where I’m less convinced is the step where feminism necessarily means a mother hates men or can’t sustain a relationship. Plenty of women who would describe themselves as feminists are in long-term marriages, and plenty of non-feminist couples divorce.

Yeah, right. Their 'marriages' are the so-called 'power-couple' thing, right, where both are out doing their own thing and the children go to daycare? Right, that works. 

2 minutes ago, something_else said:

It sounds like the bigger issue in the situation you’re describing is a parent having a very negative view of men, rather than feminism itself. Those aren’t necessarily the same thing.

I have never once heard a feminist say a positive thing about men. You can't be a feminist and believe that men are not your oppressors, that there are good men out there.  

[LordFall]

6 minutes ago, Crazy_ball said:

Yeah, right. Their 'marriages' are the so-called 'power-couple' thing, right, where both are out doing their own thing and the children go to daycare? Right, that works. 

I have never once heard a feminist say a positive thing about men. You can't be a feminist and believe that men are not your oppressors, that there are good men out there.  

I'm sorry about your negative experience with someone close to you that fits the toxic feminist version, but it's definitely not the case for all feminists. 

Your argument is falling into the logical fallacy of generalization 

[Crazy_ball]

1 minute ago, LordFall said:

I'm sorry about your negative experience with someone close to you that fits the toxic feminist version, but it's definitely not the case for all feminists. 

Your argument is falling into the logical fallacy of generalization 

Here comes the psycho-analysis. 

Here's your homework-assignment - read what I've said about the ideology. It says 'men are the oppressors'. What part of that sounds loving towards men? Read it again and again until you get it. 

Once you get it, tell me - what part of this is 'healthy'? 

[something_else]

2 minutes ago, Crazy_ball said:

Yeah, right. Their 'marriages' are the so-called 'power-couple' thing, right, where both are out doing their own thing and the children go to daycare? Right, that works. 

I live in a country with good parental leave, so typically the mother is with the child full-time for the first year regardless. After that, nursery or daycare usually just means a few hours during the day. Mornings, evenings, weekends, and often some weekdays are still spent with the child. Plenty of healthy families make that arrangement work.

9 minutes ago, Crazy_ball said:

I have never once heard a feminist say a positive thing about men. You can't be a feminist and believe that men are not your oppressors, that there are good men out there.  

I’m curious though, how many feminists have you actually spoken to in real life about this? And how did those conversations go?

I ask because the claim that feminists never say anything positive about men doesn’t really match my experience of people in the real world. I’ve met some who clearly have a very negative view of men, but they’ve always seemed like a minority. Often when they do feel that way it’s because of very negative experiences they’ve had with men in their lives.

[Crazy_ball]

1 minute ago, something_else said:

I live in a country with good parental leave, so typically the mother is with the child full-time for the first year regardless. After that, nursery or daycare usually just means a few hours during the day. Mornings, evenings, weekends, and often some weekdays are still spent with the child. Plenty of healthy families make that arrangement work.

And what about the man? Where's his family-time? Or, is he supposed to just slave away at work and come to an empty home with a crying child? When does he get to see his wife? 

3 minutes ago, something_else said:

I’m curious though, how many feminists have you actually spoken to in real life about this? And how did those conversations go?

I ask because the claim that feminists never say anything positive about men doesn’t really match my experience of people in the real world. I’ve met some who clearly have a very negative view of men, but they’ve always seemed like a minority. Often when they do feel that way it’s because of very negative experiences they’ve had with men in their lives.

They will say positive things about individual men, who play to their tune. But, 'men' as a whole? Very rarely, almost never. 'A woman can do everything a man can do and more', is what I've heard more often. 

[LordFall]

20 minutes ago, Crazy_ball said:

Here comes the psycho-analysis. 

Here's your homework-assignment - read what I've said about the ideology. It says 'men are the oppressors'. What part of that sounds loving towards men? Read it again and again until you get it. 

Once you get it, tell me - what part of this is 'healthy'? 

The patriarchy is oppressive ≠ men are the oppressors. Women having lived in systems of oppression which were in large part ruled by men doesn't mean they see the average man as an oppressor. Some do for sure but some are more like socialist types that stand against the system as a whole and some feminists are more the career driven individualist type. 

[something_else]

Just now, Crazy_ball said:

And what about the man? Where's his family-time? Or, is he supposed to just slave away at work and come to an empty home with a crying child? When does he get to see his wife? 

The entire family will be together in mornings, evenings, weekends and some weekdays depending on work patterns. It's common for parents to work part time while raising a kid so they get to spend more time together. That's plenty of time to raise a healthy child and create a healthy family dynamic.

2 minutes ago, Crazy_ball said:

They will say positive things about individual men, who play to their tune. But, 'men' as a whole? Very rarely, almost never. 'A woman can do everything a man can do and more', is what I've heard more often. 

It’s actually pretty rare for people to say positive things about the other gender as a whole. Humans tend to praise individuals close to them and criticise groups that feel more distant. That’s just how our brains are wired.

It’s also convenient to talk about patterns within a group by referring to the whole group, without literally meaning every individual in it.

In that sense, something similar might be happening here. You’re treating feminists as a single like-minded group rather than a large collection of individuals with different views. There’s a lot of nuance within feminism, just as there is within men as a group.

It might also be worth asking why feminism is such an appealing message to so many women in the first place, even if you ultimately disagree with parts of it. You don't have to change your mind, but creating a steelman of the opposing point of view can be a good way to open your mind and expand your own point of view.

[Crazy_ball]

10 minutes ago, LordFall said:

The patriarchy is oppressive ≠ men are the oppressors. Women having lived in systems of oppression which were in large part ruled by men doesn't mean they see the average man as an oppressor. Some do for sure but some are more like socialist types that stand against the system as a whole and some feminists are more the career driven individualist type. 

There is a lot of talk about how 'men chase power to satisfy their egos'. There is little to no credit given for the point of doing so. It's to provide and protect for the family. But, feminism sees the man only as an oppressor, whose ultimate aim is to oppress women. 

You talk about the distinction between the 'patriarchy' and 'men'. The system of rules that men consider 'fair' are agreed upon by a sizeable majority of men. There is a mutual respect between men even if on an unequal playing-field, just in principle. So, when they talk about 'patriarchy', this does refer to men.

10 minutes ago, something_else said:

The entire family will be together in mornings, evenings, weekends and some weekdays depending on work patterns. It's common for parents to work part time while raising a kid so they get to spend more time together. That's plenty of time to raise a healthy child and create a healthy family dynamic.

Look, if you have a family, your primary commitment is to the family. And, feminism has a fundamental issue with this. Ever since Gloria Steinem wrote her book denouncing the life of a mother. You can't ignore these realities. 

12 minutes ago, something_else said:

It might also be worth asking why feminism is such an appealing message to so many women in the first place, even if you ultimately disagree with parts of it. You don't have to change your mind, but creating a steelman of the opposing point of view can be a good way to open your mind and expand your own point of view.

I have the perfect question to ask them related to this. 'Who hurt you?'! 

[something_else]

13 minutes ago, Crazy_ball said:

I have the perfect question to ask them related to this. 'Who hurt you?'! 

There is no point in us discussing this anymore if you aren't capable of giving a mature response to that last point, it shows that you are not capable of the self-awareness required for a healthy debate. I feel I have given my best effort to be fair and open to your POV. All I can say is good luck, and I wish you the best.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

Again. You can be a feminist - or at least - for the first waves of feminism (depending on if you agree or disagree with each movement) and not hate men. 

In fact, my family consider me a feminist, but I in no way hate men. I do not feel any negativity to them as a collective group at all.

You are speaking about misandrists. Not feminists. 

A touch more education is needed. And more real world experience. Less listening to what others say and adopting ideas there. Get off the internet with this stuff.

It's only going to harm you.

[Ulax]

1 hour ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Again. You can be a feminist - or at least - for the first waves of feminism (depending on if you agree or disagree with each movement) and not hate men. 

In fact, my family consider me a feminist, but I in no way hate men. I do not feel any negativity to them as a collective group at all.

You are speaking about misandrists. Not feminists. 

A touch more education is needed. And more real world experience. Less listening to what others say and adopting ideas there. Get off the internet with this stuff.

It's only going to harm you.

Feminists don't do enough to call out the misandry from those who identify as feminists. Its natural that misandry gets associated with the movement.

[Lila9]

21 minutes ago, Ulax said:

Feminists don't do enough to call out the misandry from those who identify as feminists. Its natural that misandry gets associated with the movement.

1. Feminists are more concerned with fighting misogyny, because it has real consequences in their lives.

2. Men are not even good allies for women in the fight against misogyny and often dismiss it or normalize it.

3. Misandry is not a systemic issue. Misogyny is a systemic issue. The major negative effect of misandry on men is inconvenience to the ego.

4. Women don’t go and shoot men just because they are angry at them.

They don’t kill men on the scale that men commit femicide, and women don’t fight for stripping men of their human rights.

There are incidents of women killing men because of hatred toward men, such as Aileen Wuornos and Belle Gunness (usually rooted in sexual abuse), but it is not very common.

5. Both misogyny and misandry are wrong, but they are not an equal threat.

6. Because society is systematically and deeply misogynistic, women are more likely to have internalized misogyny than misandry.

7. Feelings like anger, rage, moral disgust, and bitterness toward men are usually symptoms of trauma, abuse, and systemic oppression rather than hatred.

However, even when it does result in misandry, it is usually not a real threat.

[Ulax]

40 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

(Bolded to distinguish)

1. Feminists are more concerned with fighting misogyny, because it has real consequences in their lives.

Fair point. Selfish though.

2. Men are not even good allies for women in the fight against misogyny and often dismiss it or normalize it.

I don't see why that's relevant to my point. Agree with you though.

3. Misandry is not a systemic issue. Misogyny is a systemic issue. The major negative effect of misandry on men is inconvenience to the ego.

Disagree. Everything that ever occurs is a systemic issue. Because every event that occurs is a result of a set of factors that occur in a system of cause and effect.

4. Women don’t go and shoot men just because they are angry at them.

They don’t kill men on the scale that men commit femicide, and women don’t fight for stripping men of their human rights.

There are incidents of women killing men because of hatred toward men, such as Aileen Wuornos and Belle Gunness (usually rooted in sexual abuse), but it is not very common.

I don't see why that's relevant to my point. Agree with you though.

5. Both misogyny and misandry are wrong, but they are not an equal threat.

Fair point and i see the relevance to my point.

6. Because society is systematically and deeply misogynistic, women are more likely to have internalized misogyny than misandry.

I don't see why that's relevant to my point. Agree with you though.

7. Feelings like anger, rage, moral disgust, and bitterness toward men are usually symptoms of trauma, abuse, and systemic oppression rather than hatred.

I'm guessing you are making the following argument. Those negative feelings towards men as a group come about because of women being wrongly treated by various men, rather than because of distorted thinking. And that those negative feelings towards all men are therefore justified.

I don't see why that's relevant to my point. Somewhat agree with you though.

To the extent that the negative feelings are justifiably felt towards a sub-group of men, rather than men as a group, then i agree. But it is just distorted thinking to apply it past that non-group of men.  If it were true that it was justified to feel strong negative feelings to all men, then it would mean that its justified to feel hatred towards a dude who contracted polio at 5 and spent his whole life in an iron lung. Which is plainly ridiculous. 

However, even when it does result in misandry, it is usually not a real threat.

I'd agree and disagree. I get the power disparity between men and women. Usually, a misandrist women on a date isn't really physically threatening in the same way a dude is. And i'm sure there are various other similar examples.

But misandry inevitably leads to increased shame amongst various men, and increased shame is related to increased risk of suicide. And, suicide is a bad thing.

 

Edited 1 hour ago by Ulax