Why atrocities in Gaza get defended so much relative to others

[thedoorsareopen]

I do sympathize for those suffering and dying in Palestine. I pray for them, and I think it’s sick how irresponsibly Hamas put their lives in danger. I also question how much human rights they would really have under an Arab regime anyway.

My Arab friends assure me that “human rights” is just meaningless, made up western propaganda, so I guess Arabs don’t need those right? Allah will dictate what their rights truly are.

[Raze]

2 hours ago, thedoorsareopen said:

I do sympathize for those suffering and dying in Palestine. I pray for them, and I think it’s sick how irresponsibly Hamas put their lives in danger. I also question how much human rights they would really have under an Arab regime anyway.

My Arab friends assure me that “human rights” is just meaningless, made up western propaganda, so I guess Arabs don’t need those right? Allah will dictate what their rights truly are.

 

2 hours ago, thedoorsareopen said:

Hamas killed people and knew their actions would get countless more Palestinians killed. Hamas has blood on its hands.

The only people I see in this discussion ever being held responsible are Israel, all worldwide Jews, and the American president. I have never seen anyone in online debates consider what things Palestinians could do differently, or Hamas, or other Arab nations.

The justifications I see for Palestinian violent resistance frame it as a need for Palestinians to hold and recover land, possibly even “take back” Israel, as a part of Arabs’ supposed rightful ownership of the whole Middle East. But when it comes to that greater Arab region’s responsibility to protect or provide humanitarian support to the Palestinians, we pretend they’re all just individual stranger countries. Egypt closed its border tight. Qatar funds Hamas and uses Palestinian lives like disposable chess pieces for power plays.

Here in the US, Arab American month was recognized by the federal government just 20 years after 9/11. Millions of Americans do the emotional labor to welcome Arabs and Muslims into American society.

But the idea of middle eastern Arabs embracing their Palestinian brothers, let alone Israel, is somehow unthinkable. There are so many other ways to resolve this issue than putting 100% of the responsibility on Israel and the US. If Arabs really care primarily about the Palestinian people, then a couple million Palestinians could easily be absorbed into the other Arab countries. And if it’s really about the land, then all parties involved could come to some kind of deal.

But every time there was a deal on the table, the Palestinians rejected it. I heard from Arabs at the time it was because Arabs are in it for the long haul, Islam has existed far longer than this ephemeral United States and western world, and if a few Palestinians have to suffer and die while the Arab world fights its war of attrition on the west, at least their lives were sacrificed for the cause, and they’ll be rewarded in heaven.

This is insanity. 
 

It’s funny to me at this point, the idea of Arabs ever presenting an actual plan for how we can all get along together on this planet, is just unimaginable. Other cultures on this planet do it every day. The idea of a headline like “Arabs lead the way on Middle East interfaith initiative” is somehow an absurd fever dream. But “Arabs attack a music festival,” yep, that’s the one that’s real.

It’s sad. The “debate” on this topic is nothing but sad retreads that go nowhere. The idea of the Arabs ever being like “yknow what? We’re just gonna eat this one because we can see this is causing endless problems and we want to be good global citizens, let’s just take care of the Palestinians ourselves rather than continuing to make it someone else’s problem” or literally ANY other NEW approach to the situation… I see new and innovative approaches to everything, from everyone, all over the globe, all of the time. And this region is just stuck in the same old BS like reruns. What is happening today is exactly like what happened in the 60s, the situation hasn’t progressed at all.

Again your comments show a massive lack of knowledge about the conflict and dehumanizing rhetoric / double standards

Just for starters,

- completely ignoring the peace initiatives supported by Arab states and Palestinians like the Arab peace initiative which I brought up

- complaining only Israel and the US are blamed yet removing all blame from them by ignoring the US vetoing every diplomatic solution at the UN and blaming Hamas for war crimes israel commits, ignoring how the PA ceased armed resistance to Israel yet Israel ramped up violence against West Bank Palestinians

- why is Hamas to blame for killing civilians in response to Israeli occupation and violence, but israel isn’t to blame when they massacre hundreds in bread lines, block food and medicine to starve children, block rescue equipment and destroy 70% of residential infrastructure to leave thousands buried under rubble. It’s a blatant double standard to justify violence against Palestinians.

- blaming Palestinians for arabs collectively and blaming arabs collectively such as suggesting they don’t deserve human rights because of what your random friend said. Some Jews say the holocaust was punishment from god, should we just conclude Jews deserve the holocaust since we are assigning collective blame based on what individuals say? 

- Qatar sent money to Hamas at the direction of Israel because Israel wanted to make Hamas stronger because they were designated terrorists by the US so it would stop israel having to negotiate peace, this was the stated aim. Was your reaction to Oct 7 “israel has blood on its hands for letting settlers attack civilians and funding Hamas to continue it”? 

The Arab states ignore the Palestinians because they don’t want to enable Israel’s war crimes and the US lobbies them to not defend their rights. The US was actually pressuring the Arab states to normalize with Israel without Israel ending its constant violence and occupation of Palestine which spurred Oct 7 to try and stop the world leaving them to permanent occupation. You ignore all of this context to somehow imply because Arabs don’t solve the problem they are blocked from solving Palestinians deserve not having basic human rights.

Really you don’t realize it but you’re exactly the person who would have excused apartheid South Africa and the Jim Crow south. Whatever rationalizations, deflections, and excuses necessary to blame the victims of injustices placed upon them.

Edited 6 hours ago by Raze

[thedoorsareopen]

This is why this topic engenders so much indifference. Every time I try to bring up the 2000 deal that Yasser Arafat walked away from, the pro-Palestine person says no no, it was Palestine who offered the deal and Israel denied it. And then you link some article from a pro-Palestine echo chamber where all the details are reversed. I’m not even saying that I’m not susceptible to such things either but again, this is madness and so boring how intractable it is.

And then the other part is where all Palestinians and Arabs are absolved of their deeds because supposedly Israel is the grand puppet master directing them to do it, again justified by some unverifiable echo chamber conspiracy brain rot.

In every discussion of this topic there are multiple levels of absolving Palestinians and Arabs of agency or responsibility for their actions. The bottom line is the Middle East was about as peaceful as it’s been in my 40 year life, and then Hamas shot up a music festival. They broke the peace. The things you say Israel did that are supposedly equivalent happened AFTER that. Sucker punching some civvies at a music festival in a time of peace is some ugly shit. But when a Palestinian does it, the world treats them like a wounded animal who doesn’t understand their actions and can’t be held accountable for them.

And then you conflate the idea of the Palestinians and Arabs letting Israel live in peace as the same thing as Israel taking over the whole Middle East. No, this is what BORDERS are. One doesn’t have to dominate the other into extinction. But, if you spend decades shooting rockets into your neighbor, you incentivize them to come over and hold your land to try to make you stop.

[Nivsch]

8 hours ago, thedoorsareopen said:

There are so many other ways to resolve this issue than putting 100% of the responsibility on Israel and the US.

True. The responsibility of the Palestinian side is also quite significant. Years of terror attacks instilled fear in Israelis and led many of them see the Palestinians as they were a single demonic entity that cannot be trusted.

Edited 54 minutes ago by Nivsch