What's the Difference Between Consciousness and Intelligence?

[Eskilon]

7 minutes ago, Hojo said:

What knows the dream isnt real in lucid dreaming?

Me? Its true that I cant find myself in any specific place, but that realization is not profound yet like the recognition in a dream...

[LambdaDelta]

1 hour ago, Eskilon said:

But in the "should be done" part, that requires knowing which requires intelligence. You can't have knowing without intelligence I dont think.

Not necessarily. Oftentimes people that are not particularly intelligent in a traditional sense are better at intuitively knowing that you "shouldn't", for instance, harm others, despite having no logical ground nor a capacity to clearly articulate why. They can simply act selflessly on autopilot. Of course it's equally as common if not more so for them to be selfish as shit. 

 

1 hour ago, Eskilon said:

Though you can have zero intelligence which I think would be deep sleep. So consciousness can exist without intelligence, because existence exists by definition.

Can be framed in the exact opposite way, deep sleep is basically being unconscious. Existence existing by definition is a logical tautology, but equating consciousness to existence is a leap in reasoning that may or may not be true. Understanding logic and its validity requires intelligence, however its limitations are grasped through consciousness. 

 

1 hour ago, Eskilon said:

To be conscious of that requires intelligence no?

Yes, although someone conscious of that may not be conscious that they're employing intelligence. Further, they can use intelligence to dismiss the role of intelligence/logic and construct a paradigm where consciousness is more fundamental; a commonplace fallacy within spirituality.

 

1 hour ago, Eskilon said:

Consciousness can just be empty being there, but doing requires a type of knowing which needs intelligence.

What's the difference between being and doing? 'Just being empty' is the only way it has or ever will be, and it takes infinite intelligence (and love/selflessness) to structure reality that way, which is a doing of a sort. 

 

You might say Consciousness governs Sameness, Unity, Love; it is implicit. Intelligence governs Difference, Multiplicity, Truth, and is explicit. But that's merely a quick sloppy metaphor. The identity of Consciousness with Intelligence is the same as the identity of Love with Truth. Infinite Love is Unity through Multiplicity; in other words, Equality/Solipsism, which is True, Logical, and Perfect. In the end, all this can be explicated ad infinitum, but requires direct experience to actually grasp, as words are in the business of definition, and reality is Undefined. Nonetheless, definition is fundamental. 

Edited 20 hours ago by LambdaDelta

[Eskilon]

32 minutes ago, LambdaDelta said:

but equating consciousness to existence is a leap in reasoning that may or may not be true.

You are right, that's a jump. I still dont know that.

 

32 minutes ago, LambdaDelta said:

You might say Consciousness governs Sameness, Unity, Love; it is implicit. Intelligence governs Difference, Multiplicity, Truth, and is explicit. But that's merely a quick sloppy metaphor. The identity of Consciousness with Intelligence is the same as the identity of Love with Truth. Infinite Love is Unity through Multiplicity; in other words, Equality/Solipsism, which is True, Logical, and Perfect. In the end, all this can be explicated ad infinitum, but requires direct experience to actually grasp, as words are in the business of definition, and reality is Undefined. Nonetheless, definition is fundamental. 

Beautifully put. 

I think conciousness and intelligence is a marriage made in heaven, they can't be put apart. Although consciouness(if it is existence) is the only thing that seems to survive all conditions. Even the condition where theres no intelligence.

I still need to realize most of the stuff talked here, some I understand intelectually but not at the undeniable level, which I think is at the level of being.

Edited 20 hours ago by Eskilon

[Joshe]

7 hours ago, Eskilon said:

When you listen to Leo or read some trip reports here or elsewhere, you usually hear something like “I am infinitely conscious” and sometimes they will also say this also “I am infinitely intelligent”. Does this have to be absolutely linked? When you are absolutely conscious you MUST be absolutely intelligent? Can you be infinitely intelligent without being infinitely conscious?

Also, when you are infinitely conscious you don't necessarily know how to conjure a planet out of your ass… or do you?? Do you know the deep mechanics of how a planet or something like water is formed? Does being infinitely conscious mean you can do more things and understand how things work on the atomic level? If so I dont think consciousness and intelligence can be separated but they are also not the same thing?

TLDR:

1. Intelligence is an activity
2. You can't do two complex things at once (verifiable)
3. 5-MeO doesn't change this
4. You can only be intelligent about what's on the slate
5. Meta-awareness doesn't escape this
6. Intelligence = structuring, manipulating, navigating the abstract
7. It manifests as compressed gestalt
8. "Infinite intelligence" - what does that even mean?
9. They can't answer, tell you to experience it
10. Ask real questions, they shift to character attacks. When people can't escape conceptually, they escape socially.
11. The real explanation: they're high on insight

---

Explanation:

Intelligence is an activity. 

Have you ever been able to hold onto some deep awareness of your metaphysics while simultaneously equally engaged with something else complex? 

No, because consciousness has limited bandwidth. 

When you try to do it, one thing or the other will always dominate your consciousness. This means you cannot be intelligent in more than one  complex domain at a time, because how can you do multiple activities at once???

5meo does not provide this ability. 

You can only be intelligent of what is on the slate of consciousness at the time. Since you can't be simultaneously engaged with multiple things at once in a serious way, you can only exercise intelligence upon that one thing. 

And meta-awareness doesn't escape this - it also competes for bandwidth. 

Intelligence is something like the ability to structure, manipulate, and navigate the abstract and to see clearly what is happening with the thing on the slate. 

IME, it manifests as a gestalt of knowing about a particular thing. And it has to be a compressed gestalt where things are just "known" because not many things can be on the slate at once. However, the things in the gestalt are available to be retrieved if you need them, but that process isn't necessarily effortless - like the term "infinite intelligence" implies. 

This begs the question, what do you mean by "infinite intelligence"? 

I think no matter how many times you ask it of those who say it, they'll just say they can't tell you what it means and you just have to experience it for yourself. And if you start inquiring with questions like:

"When you were "infinitely intelligent," could you solve any mathematical problem instantly?"

"Could speak Japanese?"

"Did your "infinite intelligence" give you the ability to predict the stock market or see what the cure for cancer was?

When these questions come up, there's a pattern of shifting the conversation from substance to your level of development or character, call you silly, assert their hierarchy and tell you to go deeper, etc. 

To understand the grandiosity behind such claims, I think it helps to realize that some of us can get extremely high on insight and knowledge. Psychedelics can amp this up to 11. This alone likely explains the bulk of it. 

The honest position is: "I took a substance. My sense of self and limitation dissolved. I felt like I understood everything. It was the most profound experience of my life. When I came back, I couldn't verify or demonstrate any of it, and couldn't even articulate it, but it felt infinite."

But obviously, this doesn't give the ego much to work with lol. 

"Consciousness is infinite" is fine. But "I am infinitely intelligent" is just someone high af with temporary (hopefully) delusions of grandeur. 

Edited 18 hours ago by Joshe

[LambdaDelta]

35 minutes ago, Eskilon said:

Although consciouness(if it is existence) is the only thing that seems to survive all conditions. Even the condition where theres no intelligence.

Any and all conditions are rendered by consciousness using intelligence, so it's only natural that it should survive them. Humongous degree of intelligence goes into creating the appearance of lack of intelligence. Being totally wrong on every single issue all the time especially requires infinite intelligence, just in the opposite direction. Absolute self-deception, as it were. Complete absence of intelligence is achieved through being totally wrong about presence of intelligence. 
 

54 minutes ago, Eskilon said:

I still need to realize most of the stuff talked here, some I understand intelectually but not at the undeniable level, which I think is at the level of being.

Being is intelligence. You already implicitly recognize this. If consciousness is existence/being, and can't be separated from intelligence, what does this say about intelligence? Even the most delusional beliefs are undeniable, precisely because they exist. 
"- It would be an accursed monster — a being that should have never been born in the first place.
 - But if he is already in this world, no one has the right to deny him his instincts."

The entire spiritual endeavor is a merger of epistemology with ontology so thorough that knowing and being become fully identical, which includes the realization that they always have been. 

[LambdaDelta]

45 minutes ago, Joshe said:

I think no matter how many times you ask it of those who say it, they'll just say they can't tell you what it means and you just have to experience it for yourself.

That holds for all experience across the board, the only difference is some experiences are more accessible than others. What does it mean to win the lottery? In the unlikely event I manage to replicate the victory itself, emotionally and practically it could still mean something entirely different to me than it did to you.
Maybe people say this because they're arrogant and confused, but cannot admit it to others, much less themselves, so they play a rhetorical trick. But maybe it actually is impossible to communicate, and/or they genuinely want you to experience it for yourself, not adopt their beliefs or deny them to validate your own. We're right back at interpretation. 

[Joshe]

@LambdaDelta Of course there are times when "you have to experience it for yourself" is the only real answer. 

I'm confused by the word "infinite". The most charitable read I can come up with is people mean there is a state of being that you realize is itself infinitely perfect/intelligent and that thing is you, but you don't actually have access to functional infinite intelligence. Is that it? 

Or is the claim literally that one's own intelligence is functionally infinite in that moment? I mean, this question sounds so absurd I feel stupid for asking it, lol. Surely that's not it, right?

Edited 17 hours ago by Joshe

[Human Mint]

10 hours ago, Eskilon said:

yeah that's what I was thinking too, they cant really be separate. As soon as you have any type of recognition that is intelligence at play.

Though you can have zero intelligence which I think would be deep sleep. So consciousness can exist without intelligence, because existence exists by definition.

Maybe. Although that's not how I experienced deep universal Intelligence. Zero intelligence still sounds like a factor of intelligence, but I don't want to stretch words.

[Human Mint]

6 hours ago, Joshe said:

@LambdaDelta Of course there are times when "you have to experience it for yourself" is the only real answer. 

I'm confused by the word "infinite". The most charitable read I can come up with is people mean there is a state of being that you realize is itself infinitely perfect/intelligent and that thing is you, but you don't actually have access to functional infinite intelligence. Is that it? 

Or is the claim literally that one's own intelligence is functionally infinite in that moment? I mean, this question sounds so absurd I feel stupid for asking it, lol. Surely that's not it, right?

You're not accessing it right now, although you're it. That's the only difference. That is the game of life, not being able to access infinite Intelligence. But what you do is to pragmatically raise your intelligence in every day life, and try to keep a track of your progress. You're putting together a puzzle of Intelligence

Also, experiencing for yourself is the only answer. If you want to understand intelligence spot it in you.

Edited 10 hours ago by Human Mint

[Human Mint]

9 hours ago, Eskilon said:

I still need to realize most of the stuff talked here, some I understand intelectually but not at the undeniable level, which I think is at the level of being.

You definitely can do that. Intellectually is like the compass which points to a truth.

[Breakingthewall]

Intelligence involves selecting among options or possibilities within a system, aiming for maximum coherence. For example, one could say that life is intelligent in its evolutionary drive, or that an entrepreneur is intelligent in their market analysis and the adaptation of their actions.

Consciousness means the perception of an external reality from a perceiving center. This conscious center can be more or less intelligent depending on its ability to read the variables of the system in which it operates and its capacity to seek maximum coherence.

 

[Eskilon]

11 hours ago, LambdaDelta said:

Any and all conditions are rendered by consciousness using intelligence, so it's only natural that it should survive them. Humongous degree of intelligence goes into creating the appearance of lack of intelligence. Being totally wrong on every single issue all the time especially requires infinite intelligence, just in the opposite direction. Absolute self-deception, as it were. Complete absence of intelligence is achieved through being totally wrong about presence of intelligence. 

I see.

 

11 hours ago, LambdaDelta said:

The entire spiritual endeavor is a merger of epistemology with ontology so thorough that knowing and being become fully identical, which includes the realization that they always have been. 

I want to merge. I will work on this.

[Eskilon]

@Joshe I think this is the topic of omniscience.

People say they do know everything, but not every micro thing. They claim omniscience is mostly a macro understanding, not a micro one.

So I don't think they will magically solve any equation or know all the languages in the world fluently.

But this puzzling because to me ominiscience includes both the macro AND the micro. But what do I know... Never experienced so I cant comment. 

[Eskilon]

3 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Intelligence involves selecting among options or possibilities within a system, aiming for maximum coherence. For example, one could say that life is intelligent in its evolutionary drive, or that an entrepreneur is intelligent in their market analysis and the adaptation of their actions.

Consciousness means the perception of an external reality from a perceiving center. This conscious center can be more or less intelligent depending on its ability to read the variables of the system in which it operates and its capacity to seek maximum coherence.

This is a good take.

But I don't think intelligence is limited to coherence. It must include absolute decoherence. Total chaos must be there.

Edited 6 hours ago by Eskilon

[Breakingthewall]

43 minutes ago, Eskilon said:

This is a good take.

But I don't think intelligence is limited to coherence. It must include absolute decoherence. Total chaos must be there.

Chaos is chaotically coherent. We could say that reality is absolute intelligence because everything that exists is absolutely coherent with everything else; otherwise, it wouldn't exist. This would be ontological intelligence, the essential quality of manifested reality.

Cognitive intelligence, on the other hand, is the capacity of an actor within that system to understand it.

[LastThursday]

Intelligence is like currency, it moves from one thing to another.

Say someone teaches you how to tie your shoelaces, then that bit of intelligence has been transferred (or more accurately copied). If that's the case then intelligence moves and recombines from many different sources. If you keep tracing back where a bit of intelligence came from then in an idealist paradigm, the backstop is consciousness itself. Consciousness itself is the source of all intelligence.

Is intelligence then no different from consciousness itself? Well that depends on whether any part of consciousness is unintelligent. That seems reasonable, not everything is intelligent, there's a lot of stupidity in consciousness.

[Ziran]

17 hours ago, Eskilon said:

Interesting.

But in the "should be done" part, that requires knowing which requires intelligence. You can't have knowing without intelligence I dont think.

 

Thank you.  For sure.  Lacking intelligence is ignorance.  

 

20 hours ago, Ziran said:

"consciousness" is a confluence of self awareness and connection with others beyond oneself.

 

For me, speaking only for myself, connection beyond myself requires strict agnostism:  "I can't possibly know it."

Edited 4 hours ago by Ziran

[Eskilon]

2 hours ago, LastThursday said:

Intelligence is like currency, it moves from one thing to another.

Say someone teaches you how to tie your shoelaces, then that bit of intelligence has been transferred (or more accurately copied). If that's the case then intelligence moves and recombines from many different sources. If you keep tracing back where a bit of intelligence came from then in an idealist paradigm, the backstop is consciousness itself. Consciousness itself is the source of all intelligence.

Is intelligence then no different from consciousness itself? Well that depends on whether any part of consciousness is unintelligent. That seems reasonable, not everything is intelligent, there's a lot of stupidity in consciousness.

I makes sense too. But my view now is that there's not really anything unintelligent, just less intelligent but still intelligent.

Intelligence seems to be always present, the question is only about "how much".

Edited 3 hours ago by Eskilon

[LastThursday]

30 minutes ago, Eskilon said:

Intelligence seems to be always present, the question is only about "how much".

To distinguish a thing (intelligence) it must have a boundary. Everything outside that boundary is not intelligence, everything inside is. 

If everything is intelligence, then it has no boundary (because it's everything), and therefore it can't be distinct. Only things that can be distinguished exist. By that argument there must be non-intelligence. "how much" just means that there is a graduation between intelligence and non-intelligence. 

All that's a long-winded way of saying to have a thing, you need its opposite for contrast. There are non-intelligent things in consciousness.

[Inliytened1]

On 2/8/2026 at 2:51 PM, Eskilon said:

I want to explore this topic in depth. Keep in mind that I wouldn’t say I am awake, that life is a dream(like I am in a lucid dream, I would presume that's what awakening is), so that’s the understanding that I am coming from.

 

What is intelligence? A person can be an intellectual but that doesn't necessarily mean he is automatically intelligent – You definitely wont say every intellectual is actually intelligent I dont think. It seems to me that intellect has intelligence in it, but intelligence doesn’t necessarily have intellect. Intelligence seems to belong to something bigger while intellect belongs to the human mind, this 3d reality and thinking specifically. But then what is actually intelligence?? When you look at nature you definitely can’t deny its intelligence: the order of it, the balance, the self-regulation, it is intelligent, but what is it? What is the substance of that??

 

 

Thats because Consciousness includes all of nature.   Consciousness itself is the same as reality itself or the Universe with a capital U.  Its the Absolute.  Reality is a giant mind.  So it's alive - the chair is alive..the room is alive because it is all an aspect of Consciousness.   

Intelligence is an Absolute- it is a facet of Consciousness as is Love and Infinity.  So you can look at Consciousness or reality from one facet or as a whole.  So as a whole Intelligence and Consciousness are the same thing.  But you can also look at it as a facet.  Like a finger is to the hand. 

There are many facets to Intelligence too.  You can be incredibly intelligent at doing science but clueless at spirituality. You can be extremely intuitive but cant read.  You can be book smart but yet have no common sense.  These are all examples of finite intelligence.  Its very broad.  But Infinite Intelligence as an Absolute is all knowing and omniscient.   It is the one Infinite Mind in its purest state.  It can spawn things into existence instantaneously, create entre galaxies out of thin air - and so on.  Just as when you dream at night you are creating an entire reality of your own out of thin air. 

Edited 2 hours ago by Inliytened1