We should abolish the United States.

[Husseinisdoingfine]

I have a better solution, comrades… ☭

 

Edited 5 hours ago by Husseinisdoingfine

[Cred]

10 minutes ago, Rilles said:

Another mega-brain thread on this high consciousness forum.

Do you have anything else to contribute to this discussion?

[Rilles]

5 minutes ago, Cred said:

Do you have anything else to contribute to this discussion?

[aurum]

26 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

It’s the complete opposite of dissolving. It would be putting the US under a capable, democratic administration that has both the interest and ability to resist oligarchal and fascist overreach and instead uphold the rule of law, human rights, democratic participation and material well-being.

They did it Cambodia. They did it in East Timor. They did it in Kosovo. It could be done in the US, who is currently a rogue, fascistic oligarchal state at war with its own citizens. If that’s not cause for international intervention, what is?

You can do with a place like Cambodia because it's a small, undeveloped nation.

The US is the world superpower. It'll never agree to it, and no one has the geopolitical leverage to make it happen.

[Basman]

I think it is interesting how in this sorts of discussions nobody really thinks about what the populace wants. People did vote for politicians like Trump because he gives them a sense of agency over a political system that seems obtuse and unmanageable while at the same being angry over policy that didn't get their consent, like immigration. 

More technocracy isn't going to solve anything without also addressing a fundamental distrust in institutions. Civic consent is an issue that a lot of liberal types tend to gloss over, but it is fundamental to a healthy democracy. A lot of "wokiesm" and culture wars is in part about policy being implemented without civic consent, like immigration or trans stuff. 

[Apparition of Jack]

7 minutes ago, aurum said:

You can do with a place like Cambodia because it's a small, undeveloped nation.

The US is the world superpower. It'll never agree to it, and no one has the geopolitical leverage to make it happen.

If it was hypothetically possible, would you support it? Or at the very least, expanding international norms and policies within the US itself?

America is, again, a rogue state. It has completely abandoned any sense of responsibility, restraint or decency on the world stage, both externally and internally. If the US can be seen as an organization, it’s an organization that exists solely to enrich the oligarch class at the expense of both its internal citizens and external nations. It has, in effect, become an armed mafia with the most powerful economy in the world to back it up. Something needs to change.

Edited 4 hours ago by Apparition of Jack

[Apparition of Jack]

9 minutes ago, Basman said:

I think it is interesting how in this sorts of discussions nobody really thinks about what the populace wants. People did vote for politicians like Trump because he gives them a sense of agency over a political system that seems obtuse and unmanageable while at the same being angry over policy that didn't get their consent, like immigration. 

More technocracy isn't going to solve anything without also addressing a fundamental distrust in institutions. Civic consent is an issue that a lot of liberal types tend to gloss over, but it is fundamental to a healthy democracy. A lot of "wokiesm" and culture wars is in part about policy being implemented without civic consent, like immigration or trans stuff. 

Frankly, I believe the last election was tampered with. We also know for a fact that the 2016 election was tampered with (Russiagate actually happened.) There is, again, HIGHLY illegal activity keeping Trump and his fascist goons in power. This is nothing to say of the, AGAIN, highly illegal corruption US corporations engage in on a daily basis to suck the life of out civic society and impoverish its own people. America is, again, a corporate mafia state protecting its own cynical interests. 
 

Hitler was also democratically elected, but that didn’t stop the world coming together to put an end to his madness. Targeted humanitarian intervention can and has been used as a tool to restore democracy and enforce the rule of law, especially when dictators start killing their own people.

Edited 4 hours ago by Apparition of Jack

[Basman]

1 minute ago, Apparition of Jack said:

Frankly, I believe the last election was tampered with. We also know for a fact that the 2016 election was tampered with (Russiagate actually happened.) There is, again, HIGHLY illegal activity keeping Trump and his fascist goons in power. 
 

Hitler was also democratically elected, but that didn’t stop the world coming together to put an end to his madness. Targeted humanitarian intervention can and has been used as a tool to restore democracy and enforce the rule of law. 

This is an issue of the system itself undermining democracy. Tampering is minor compared to that. 

[Apparition of Jack]

The only other option to this is for American kleptocrats, businesses, military leaders, corporate politicians to voluntarily cede power. 
 

If Trump, Miller, Elon etc all voluntarily stepped down and handed power over to the American public, all of this insanity would end overnight, and reason would be restored. But I’m not holding my breath.

[aurum]

4 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

If it was hypothetically possible, would you support it? Or at the very least, expanding international norms and policies within the US itself?

America is, again, a rogue state. It has completely abandoned any sense of responsibility, restraint or decency on the world stage, both externally and internally. If the US can be seen as an organization, it’s an organization that exists solely to enrich the oligarch class at the expense of both its internal citizens and external nations. It has, in effect, become an armed mafia with the most powerful economy in the world to back it up. Something needs to change.

I would like to see stronger global institutions that all nations are subject to.

There is nothing particularly unique about the US, in the sense that global superpowers have always been rogue. Geopolitics are about power, and those with power decide what happens.

Even if you could theoretically reel in the US, what then? Another global superpower will emerge and behave exactly as the US does now.

So my focus is not strictly on the US. It's more broadly about the challenge of superpowers.

[Apparition of Jack]

2 minutes ago, Basman said:

This is an issue of the system itself undermining democracy. Tampering is minor compared to that. 

Was it “undemocratic” to put the Nazi high leadership on trial, despite them being democratically elected? Even though doing so set the precedent for the next 75 years of global democratic security and prosperity? There are certain norms that the world adheres to for the betterment of everyone, and when a state actor breaks those norms, it’s only prudent the world steps in to once again enforce them.

[Apparition of Jack]

2 minutes ago, aurum said:

I would like to see stronger global institutions that all nations are subject to.

There is nothing particularly unique about the US, in the sense that global superpowers have always been rogue. Geopolitics are about power, and those with power decide what happens.

Even if you could theoretically reel in the US, what then? Another global superpower will emerge and behave exactly as the US does now.

So my focus is not strictly on the US. It's more broadly about the challenge of superpowers.

Says who? We’re entering an unprecedented age of global interconnectedness. The difference between New York and Warsaw is only a fraction of what it was even just a century ago.

Who’s to say we can’t genuinely start uniting as a species? Make no mistake, I still understand nations like China, Russia etc will resist this for their own reasons, but let’s be real, WW3 is never going to happen. Nukes alone make war between major nations a thing of the past. Are we going to keep playing this dogshit game of geopolitical cynicism (for the betterment of the Epstein class, I might add), or are we going to unite?

[Raze]

A better option would have been US joining the ICC, dismantling the empire, and empowering international law.m

[aurum]

Just now, Apparition of Jack said:

Says who? We’re entering an unprecedented age of global interconnectedness. The difference between New York and Warsaw is only a fraction of what it was even just a century ago.

Who’s to say we can’t genuinely start uniting as a species? Make no mistake, I still understand nations like China, Russia etc will resist this for their own reasons, but let’s be real, WW3 is never going to happen. Nukes alone make war between major nations a thing of the past. Are we going to keep playing this dogshit game of geopolitical cynicism (for the betterment of the Epstein class, I might add), or are we going to unite?

I didn't suggest we shouldn't unite.

Uniting is the point of stronger global institutions. That's what uniting looks like.

[Apparition of Jack]

There is, functionally, no difference between your average person from New York, London, Rome, Tokyo or Melbourne at this point (no, superficial cultural markers like NY pizza don’t count.) 

We do, legitimately, live in an actual global civilisation. The internet created that. It exists.

The only question is whether we’re going to be honest about this or whether we’re going to keep pretending we’re cavemen out for blood. We’re not. It’s time for us to unite.

[Apparition of Jack]

2 minutes ago, aurum said:

I didn't suggest we shouldn't unite.

Uniting is the point of stronger global institutions. That's what uniting looks like.

I’m not even sure we disagree here then lol. Im getting ahead of myself.

[aurum]

1 minute ago, Apparition of Jack said:

I’m not even sure we disagree here then lol. Im getting ahead of myself.

We disagree if you think the US is some kind of unique evil.

There is nothing unique about the US. This is the exact same game that has been playing out since the beginning of time: survival and power.

Every nation would behave like the US if they could. This is what history has shown us. They only don't because they can't.

And of course the US understands this and therefore wants to remain on top, which is why they will never give up power.

Is it fair? No. It is self-justifying? Yes.

Nonetheless, this is the situation we are in. Any serious solution you propose must contend with this. Otherwise you are just fantasizing, not doing real political thinking.

[Basman]

13 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

Was it “undemocratic” to put the Nazi high leadership on trial, despite them being democratically elected? Even though doing so set the precedent for the next 75 years of global democratic security and prosperity? There are certain norms that the world adheres to for the betterment of everyone, and when a state actor breaks those norms, it’s only prudent the world steps in to once again enforce them.

The rise of nazism was in part due to democratic decline. Your missing the point.

[Apparition of Jack]

So long as I’m rambling: the mistake that MAGA and all different stripes of American nativists make is assuming they’re seperate or above the global community. They’re not. Like I said, the internet has all but ensured global governance and connectivity is an inevitability. Whether people like or not humanity is going to look a lot more like a single civilisation in a few decades (rather than dozens of competing, self-interested civilisations.) In many ways MAGA is the last desperate attempt for the US to assert its individuality and supremacy on the world stage, but you can’t fight gravity.

We all exist on the same planet. We all share the same ideas. We all know thousands of people around the world. 
 

We’re not separated anymore. We are, increasingly, one entity. “Humanity” as a collective is no longer the domain of theologians or wide-eyed idealists, but an actual, growing lived reality for billions of people around the globe. 
 

Particularism will not survive the future.

[Apparition of Jack]

7 minutes ago, aurum said:

We disagree if you think the US is some kind of unique evil.

There is nothing unique about the US. This is the exact same game that has been playing out since the beginning of time: survival and power.

Every nation would behave like the US if they could. This is what history has shown us. They only don't because they can't.

And of course the US understands this and therefore wants to remain on top, which is why they will never give up power.

Is it fair? No. It is self-justifying? Yes.

Nonetheless, this is the situation we are in. Any serious solution you propose must contend with this. Otherwise you are just fantasizing, not doing real political thinking.

And you are failing to see the bigger picture. Nation-states as an idea are dead. Europe will be federalised within a few decades, if not sooner. Africa will likely start forming regional blocks. As it stands, nation-states only exist to protect the interests of tyrannical corporate interests, which as we can all see are rapidly resorting to killing to protect themselves. I’m not the crazy one for pointing out that is unsustainable for human survival and flourishing.

 

EDIT: Again, the Internet created all this. I, someone 10,000KM away from the US, have as much knowledge and insight to America’s political chaos (often more) than countless Americans themselves. I would encourage anyone who’s interested in Australian politics (or German, or Japanese, or Indian) to do the same. We’re not strangers anymore. Physical borders only determine what the weather is like in your location. The internet is omnipresent; something no Roman, or Brit, or Mongol ever had to contend with. It’s the silver bullet for particularism and nativism.

Edited 4 hours ago by Apparition of Jack