She's gone :(

[Zenterus]

And it's my fault and that's okay.

I proposed exclusivity too soon, before it felt truly aligned with me and instead of honoring it I went on to disrespect it with two other women. 

She doesn't know about that though.

All she knows is that I eventually came to the conclusion that being exclusive with her after only 3 dates didn't feel right. It felt like I introduced the concept as a way to control her. As a way to hold exclusive sexual and emotional access to her, not because it felt like a natural progression of our relationship. The truth is, I didn't feel secure in that connection. She took hours, sometimes even a whole day to respond to my texts (although she was very enthusiastic when she did) and when I told her that I would miss her when she was going away for 2 weeks to visit her family, she responded with "I'll miss you too, I think?" And so, when I told her that we might be moving too fast and need to take a step back, she replied with "I appreciate your honesty but I'm gonna have to say no. Wish you all the best in this new year and let us let this go with nothing but positive feelings <3"

Just like that. Gone. Poof.

I didn't feel safe, yet as a man it is my fault for not leading the dynamic of the relationship properly and, instead, introducing exclusivity before it felt aligned and then, furthermore, disrespecting that exclusivity by having sex with 2 other women.

What the absolute fuck, man? I never thought I'd be this type of man that treats women this way, especially one that I deeply care about.

I always prided myself in being honest with women. I would tell friends of mine "Don't lie to women! It reinforces a scarcity mindset!" Yet look at me, now. Look at what I've done. 

....

Yet, I accept this moment of clarity with grace. I accept her decision wholeheartedly and I accept that I am flawed and might have more work to do than I initially thought.

She's gone and I wish her nothing but the best.

 

Edit: To clarify, she didnt leave because I proposed exclusivity. She left because 2 weeks after we became exclusive, I told her that I may have proposed it too soon and that we should take a step back and get to know each other without commitment first as its only been 3 dates. She wasn't having it and ended things 

 

Edited Saturday at 10:18 PM by Zenterus

[Hojo]

Live and learn you came off as clingy cause you are deeply lonely. Dont do that you are looking for someone because you dont realize you make your own emotions.

You are lying to women you arent telling them you are deeply insecure because you lost a part of your soul.

Woman cant give you emotions you cant give yourself. Learn that.

Its easy to see when you know.

Edited Saturday at 08:37 PM by Hojo

[Zenterus]

@Hojo Thank you for your response but none of what you said relates to me. You don't know me nor her nor our dynamic like that to make all these assumptions. I will say that one thing you're right about is that I will learn from this experience and grow from it.

[Hojo]

@ZenterusIt relates too all humans. The feeling you had when she was there was being created by your own body. It has nothing to do with the person. You wont grow from this you are giving the emotion away to the woman.

You can grow from it by emptying your cup then keep giving all your emotions away to people.

You can tell you were being too clingy by what you wrote. 3 dates, upset that it took her hours to respond. Saying I miss you when shes going on vacation with barely knowing the person. It spells C-L-I-N-G-Y. Clingy men are dangerous to woman. You can tell she knew it by this response.

'I'll miss you too, I think?'

That means she dosent even know you yet.

You are caught in your emotions and the woman is saying she barely knows you.

Edited Saturday at 08:48 PM by Hojo

[CARDOZZO]

I feel you bro

 

[Joshe]

I had a friend in high school who girls absolutely adored for his looks. He could never make it more than 2 weeks with a girl before they bounced. His neediness was too much. Even super-attractive dudes run girls off with neediness. That's how repulsive it is to them (generally speaking). 

I was too needy with my very first girlfriend. She bounced and couldn't even give me an explanation as to why. lol. I figured it out though and came up with a rule of thumb: never be more invested than they are.

If you're doing everything you think you should be and a girl ever wants to leave, have some self-respect and show her to the exit.

I had a fling with a girl I met from a bar and she was going through a rough time with her boyfriend. Eventually, he found out about us and came over to my place one night. I opened the door and he starts pleading with her. She went out to talk to him. She came back inside and sat on my bed and was contemplating whether she should leave or not and I could tell she wasn't sure what to do, so I told her she should just go be with James and that I didn't want a gf anyway and things would be a lot simpler for her if she just left. 

I genuinely meant everything I told her because I couldn't stand feeling like an option she was weighing. After that night, I couldn't get rid of her. We were together for like 5 years after that.

Maybe the moral of the story is: Staying rooted in your dignity and self-respect creates opportunity. Or maybe, you can't perform non-neediness. You have to actually not be needy. 

Edited Saturday at 10:13 PM by Joshe

[Zenterus]

@Joshe Thank you for your emotionally intelligent response.

[Zenterus]

I feel like most of you are not fully comprehending what happened. She didnt leave because i suggested exclusivity and I was being needy.

She left because we were exclusive and 2 weeks later I decided that we should undo the exclusivity because it felt like moving too fast.

She wasnt down for that and she ended things.

[theleelajoker]

First of all, sorry to hear. Had a breakup last year and no matter the learning and growing etc, it did hurt a lot for me then. 

9 minutes ago, Zenterus said:

She left because we were exclusive and 2 weeks later I decided that we should undo the exclusivity because it felt like moving too fast..

Where did you get the idea from that it was "too fast"? 

[Zenterus]

@theleelajoker 

We've been on only 3 dates and while the connection was strong, my intuition told me that suggesting being exclusive was coming from the wrong place (I suggested it).

It was coming from a place of wanting her to be exclusive with me, yet I didn't feel like I've seen enough consistency and engagement from her to warrant being exclusive to her.

This became apparent when I slept with 2 other women as I knew in my heart that being exclusive was a manipulative tactic rather than coming from genuine intention, which doesnt make what I did right btw.

I knew I was taking a risk by taking back the exclusivity, since it is rare to move backwards in a relationship. But it just didnt feel right.

Honestly, when I got the message from her that we were done, i didnt even feel hurt or anything. It felt.. relieving in a way. But I do mourn that connection the potential it had had I played it more solid and with more integruous intention.

Again, thank you so much for your question, I need to vent this out.

(Im typing this while in the club btw lol)

[Joshe]

9 minutes ago, Zenterus said:

I feel like most of you are not fully comprehending what happened. She didnt leave because i suggested exclusivity and I was being needy.

She left because we were exclusive and 2 weeks later I decided that we should undo the exclusivity because it felt like moving too fast.

She wasnt down for that and she ended things.

She might not have liked your style and thought you were treating the relationship like a contract with clauses. 

I don't get the need to even mention exclusivity. At some point, the girl will let you know when she starts saying things like "you better not be talking to other girls".

If you try to manage it before she is ready for it, it just seems like hyper-vigilance or something. 

[theleelajoker]

21 minutes ago, Zenterus said:

@theleelajoker 

We've been on only 3 dates and while the connection was strong, my intuition told me that suggesting being exclusive was coming from the wrong place (I suggested it).

It was coming from a place of wanting her to be exclusive with me, yet I didn't feel like I've seen enough consistency and engagement from her to warrant being exclusive to her.

This became apparent when I slept with 2 other women as I knew in my heart that being exclusive was a manipulative tactic rather than coming from genuine intention, which doesnt make what I did right btw.

I knew I was taking a risk by taking back the exclusivity, since it is rare to move backwards in a relationship. But it just didnt feel right.

Honestly, when I got the message from her that we were done, i didnt even feel hurt or anything. It felt.. relieving in a way. But I do mourn that connection the potential it had had I played it more solid and with more integruous intention.

Again, thank you so much for your question, I need to vent this out.

(Im typing this while in the club btw lol)

Idea: you intuitively knew that the fit was not good, neither for you nor her. Might that be a possible source where the relief came from?

The potential is only on your mind. Few days ago I already referred a quote in some other post: "I'm sad it's over. But not for what was. But what could have been"

That quote fits so well re my last breakup. In hindsight I think: WTF? 🤣 Either it works or it doesn't, but hoping for the future just keeps me in my own mind prison. Am I not good enough to be happy NOW? 

What type of club you're at?

[Zenterus]

@theleelajoker

Hey man/gyal I'm so thankful for your responses.

I actually do feel like we were incompatible in some ways. She admitted to being an anxious avoidant, she was financially struggling voluntarily (all she had to do was get a new job), had an STD from a previous partner (nothing crazy) and wanted kids and marriage in the near future.

Typing this out, I realize how insane that may sound but she was also a very solid woman in other ways.

Im at a rnb, afrobeats, latin, hiphop type of club. 

Getting a lot of looks, so who knows what might come of this.

[theleelajoker]

55 minutes ago, Joshe said:

She might not have liked your style and thought you were treating the relationship like a contract with clauses. 

I don't get the need to even mention exclusivity. At some point, the girl will let you know when she starts saying things like "you better not be talking to other girls".

If you try to manage it before she is ready for it, it just seems like hyper-vigilance or something. 

You can make the point just turned 180°:

Mentioning exclusivity early is coming from a man who knows what he wants, and what not. He's showing his values and is authentic from day one. He's leading the way, showing confidence. Showing initiative, and the will to take responsibility. Only men that are insecure don't talk about it. 

Or, vice versa:

"Real men have a feeling for timing, and for the woman at their side. Instead of pushing through with their agenda, they are tactful. Instead of forcing issues, they are relaxed and let the woman introduce certain topics. They are confident and know their value. They are leading the way by being confident enough to let others lead. Only men that are insecure talk about exclusivity first"

Or: 

Exclusivity is for weak men. You don't talk about it. You don't ask for it. You just do what you want.  Clever tactic: Because the girl will be so impressed that she only fucks you, making it exclusive one person only"

Or:

"Exclusivity is for weak men. Tell your GF that she can fuck anyone anytime and truly mean it."

Or:

"Exclusivity is for weak and insecure men. Tell your GF she can fuck anyone and then watch her doing it"

 

All these strategies are mind fuck IMO. 

If it fits, it fits. If not, then not. There's no "best" or "right" way. 

 

Edited Saturday at 11:42 PM by theleelajoker

[theleelajoker]

8 minutes ago, Zenterus said:

@theleelajoker

Hey man/gyal I'm so thankful for your responses.

I actually do feel like we were incompatible in some ways. She admitted to being an anxious avoidant, she was financially struggling voluntarily (all she had to do was get a new job), had an STD from a previous partner (nothing crazy) and wanted kids and marriage in the near future.

Typing this out, I realize how insane that may sound but she was also a very solid woman in other ways.

Im at a rnb, afrobeats, latin, hiphop type of club. 

Getting a lot of looks, so who knows what might come of this.

I suspect you both subconsciously knew/know about the incompatibility and communicated this in subtle ways, verbally and non verbally. 

So did the idea to end exclusivity come from ONLY you? Or were you maybe picking up hints from her, subtly telling you she  somehow wants it to end? And you then did the favor of opening a door to end it? Who knows, but it's a scenario that I have seen before. Only that I did not understand it while it was happening.  

Yeah, I once dated a girl that also had a rather... let's say volatile lifestyle but she was also great in many ways. A bit crazy is sexy, isn't it? Who needs more people doing all the same boring stuff that everybody is doing 🤣

Re club : nice, zero expectations and then up to the dancefloor and maybe something happens, but if not you had fun dancing. 

[Joshe]

5 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

There's no "best" or "right" way. 

I think in general, early on, girls don’t like the pressure of exclusivity talk and even labels like boyfriend/girlfriend. I think they usually need to feel you out for a couple months first and you have to just wait on them to let you know if/when they’re ready.

I always just approached women with a “if it happens, it happens, if it don’t, it don’t” approach, and I let them choose when we move to the next level. They give signs when it’s time. 

If you say “I want to be exclusive”, that is MASSIVE pressure you’re putting on them because what can they say?  Either yes, no, or let me think about it.

Each response has significant implications. It almost feels inhumane. Lol. 

And many girls will say yes out of guilt, so they’re basically coerced. If they say no, then it’s possibly over right then and there, and they might not want that either. 

Saying directly “I want you to be mine and only mine” before they’re ready for that just doesn’t sit right with me, and I think in general, they don’t prefer it. Thirsty ones might. 

[theleelajoker]

1 hour ago, Joshe said:

I think in general, early on, girls don’t like the pressure of exclusivity talk and even labels like boyfriend/girlfriend. I think they usually need to feel you out for a couple months first and you have to just wait on them to let you know if/when they’re ready.
 

In most cases, that's also how I have experienced it. 

Quote

I always just approached women with a “if it happens, it happens, if it don’t, it don’t” approach, and I let them choose when we move to the next level. They give signs when it’s time. 

+1 to the signs. The “if it happens, it happens, if it don’t, it don’t” is certainly useful and just allowing reality to unfold while being relaxed. 

Quote

 

If you say “I want to be exclusive”, that is MASSIVE pressure you’re putting on them because what can they say?  Either yes, no, or let me think about it.

Each response has significant implications. It almost feels inhumane. Lol. 

And many girls will say yes out of guilt, so they’re basically coerced. If they say no, then it’s possibly over right then and there, and they might not want that either. 

Saying directly “I want you to be mine and only mine” before they’re ready for that just doesn’t sit right with me, and I think in general, they don’t prefer it. Thirsty ones might. 

 

Yes to the massive pressure. Yes to also that girls might say yes out of guilt. 

BUT my big argument is: why care so much about what the other does or not does?

What's my position? Do I want clarity re if we are fucking other people while dating, or do I want to leave it in the dark? How important is clarity for me? What's my position on this for now (exclusivity, partnership model, polygamy etc) Do I actually know what I want? Or do I want to openly discuss it? "Hey girl, we have been seeing each other for a while. What's your take on exclusivity?"

Do I want a girl that says "yes" out of guilt? No. 

Do I want a girl that feels that as immense pressure instead of a chance to get to know each other, and find out how we want to date? No.

Do I want a girl that sees that as clingy, even if it's simply aligned with who I am? No.

Do I want a girl that is so insecure that we can't talk openly about stuff? No. 

My last gf, I had the talk early on and in hindsight, I can see how it put pressure on here. But it's not the thing itself, it was HER creating pressure for herself. I wanted exclusivity, and it felt good, and it felt right. Sometimes I was working with attractive female clients, and knowing that there is that line I won't cross it was much easier for me to work with them without the sexual tensions that sometimes arise.  And when I went to parties, clubs I was so much more relaxed then my friends because no matter how hot the women around us - I could save all the thoughts and energy that I otherwise would use for flirting, dating. 

"if it happens, it happens, if it don’t, it don’t” --> if we work together as a couple, we do. If not, then not. Simply expressing who I am and then seeing what happens. Doesn't mean that you can't be smart about things (have discussions after eating and not before, after sex and not before,wait for a moment where mood is rather calm and you have lot of time do discuss, etc.) But I am not constantly thinking for my gf and thus treating her like a daughter instead of an equal that can handle essential questions about dating. 

Edited yesterday at 07:47 AM by theleelajoker

[Joshe]

9 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

BUT my big argument is: why care so much about what the other does or not does?

Empathy. Respect. Attunement. 

I understand your point. I'm not saying "don't do that". You can do it and things still work out for you.

I'm just saying that if you pull a fire alarm and everyone in the building panics, and you say "their panic is on them - I was just expressing myself", that's technically true, but it's ignoring the fact that you caused the panic.

9 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

What's my position? Do I want clarity re if we are fucking other people while dating, or do I want to leave it in the dark? How important is clarity for me? What's my position on this for now (exclusivity, partnership model, polygamy etc) Do I actually know what I want? Or do I want to openly discuss it? "Hey girl, we have been seeing each other for a while. What's your take on exclusivity?"

It seems you want clarity about a specific thing but want to ignore the impact clarity-seeking would generate. There are consequences to pretending the impact is only in the other person's head. 

Self-expression changes the emotional environment.

Edited 16 hours ago by Joshe

[theleelajoker]

Quote

Empathy. Respect. Attunement. 

I understand your point. I'm not saying "don't do that". You can do it and things still work out for you.

Yeah, I agree with this. Of course, there is a certain way of doing things with respect. 

Quote

I'm just saying that if you pull a fire alarm and everyone in the building panics, and you say "their panic is on them - I was just expressing myself", that's technically true, but it's ignoring the fact that you caused the panic.

Here I don't think the comparison fits. How about a "I am wondering - what will it be like if I pull the fire alarm? What's your opinion on that?"  And if she is already freaked out by introducing the topic without need to make a decision - then the fit certainly is not there for me. 

Quote

 

It seems you want clarity about a specific thing but want to ignore the impact clarity-seeking would generate. There are consequences to pretending the impact is only in the other person's head. 

Self-expression changes the emotional environment

 

Hmmm... not sure we have the same understanding. For me it means I accept the consequence. If I feel like talking about it, it's only a question of HOW to do it (empathically, respect) but not IF I do it. Saying "I don't put this topic on the table because of fear that her reaction is XYZ" is not a option.

Yes, self expression changes the emotional environment. 

1)  Same time, her reaction is her responsibility. If she either doesn't see that, or is not open for a discussion about it, then I already know that it doesn't make sense re relationship. Because if she doesn't take responsibility for her emotional state, then she will look for sth or sme on the outside to project that on. And is this how I want to live my relationship? Nope. 

2) Second, what is so bad at having some emotions coming up? Western culture is so programmed to avoid emotions but I don't see the sense in this

And I know from experience that tough discussions and questions can be successfully handled in early dating. I had this dynamic with my last gf in the first couple of dates - she asking me many personal questions directly, and I did the same. We thus knew at an early state that re value we are very aligned. 

[Joshe]

2 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

Here I don't think the comparison fits. How about a "I am wondering - what will it be like if I pull the fire alarm? What's your opinion on that?"  And if she is already freaked out by introducing the topic without need to make a decision - then the fit certainly is not there for me.

What about this analogy: If your boss of 3 weeks says to you "I am wondering - do you see yourself sticking around long term and devoting yourself to our cause"? No matter how he frames the question, it creates pressure, and IMO, is a bit unfair. 

If the employee feels pressured, is that just on them? 

2 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

1)  Same time, her reaction is her responsibility. If she either doesn't see that, or is not open for a discussion about it, then I already know that it doesn't make sense re relationship. Because if she doesn't take responsibility for her emotional state, then she will look for sth or sme on the outside to project that on. And is this how I want to live my relationship? Nope. 

So if you're deliberately using it as a filter, I think that's fine and makes good sense. 

2 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

2) Second, what is so bad at having some emotions coming up? Western culture is so programmed to avoid emotions but I don't see the sense in this

Nothing, as long as they're ready for it or have the capacity and desire to meet you there. But it seems risky. You might end up scaring some off that you'd actually like.