Another Hitler-Stalin pact upon Europe?

[Basman]

Putin is part of a current wave of political authoritarianism, which Trump is also an expression of. Russia has been way more conducive to authoritarianism through Putin due to it's particular cultural and historical trends, which is why it stands out.

Putin doesn't want to integrate with the West. Russia culturally isn't even sure if it's "European". His goal currently is to maintain power and protect his life from a violent upheaval, like what happened with Qaddafi. Integrating with the West would long-term mean checks on power, which is a big reason why Putin seeks political control over Ukraine, a country very closely linked to Russia historically and culturally which is democratizing and integrating with the west. A threat to Putin's position and eventual life. Currently Russia would only integrate with the West if Putin somehow could undermine it from within, but he doesn't seem interested in doing that.

[Sandroew]

Well, im not saying Russia should integrate into Europe, i would have to think about it… im not sure if thats realistic at all.

My point is they could have done so with all their effort they have put into scheming and trying to dominate the region. There could be a strong eastern European alliance. There is culture that would bind Eastern Europe together, but Russia is ruining it all by itself because Putin refuses to let go of the past when they were able to achieve it by dominance. That time is clearly gone by, the world has changed.

[Daniel Balan]

29 minutes ago, Basman said:

Putin is part of a current wave of political authoritarianism, which Trump is also an expression of. Russia has been way more conducive to authoritarianism through Putin due to it's particular cultural and historical trends, which is why it stands out.

Putin doesn't want to integrate with the West. Russia culturally isn't even sure if it's "European". His goal currently is to maintain power and protect his life from a violent upheaval, like what happened with Qaddafi. Integrating with the West would long-term mean checks on power, which is a big reason why Putin seeks political control over Ukraine, a country very closely linked to Russia historically and culturally which is democratizing and integrating with the west. A threat to Putin's position and eventual life. Currently Russia would only integrate with the West if Putin somehow could undermine it from within, but he doesn't seem interested in doing that.

This narative about Putin fearing a possible change of regime is laughable. Almost 80% of Russian citizens are backing Putin. Even if it were to be that Putin is ousted, what would replace Putin would be something more radical, more bloodthirsty. Not something more liberal. There is no threat for the Putin regime to collapse, all the oligarchs in Russia profit massively from Putin, Putin is a guarantee that corruption will stay the same, this is something that everyone on Russia wants, they want more corruption, not less. 

[Daniel Balan]

47 minutes ago, Sandroew said:

The Soviet Union wont happen again. Virtually none of the ex members want to partake in a divided Europe especially not led by Russia. Its not 1950 anymore, it doesnt work like that anymore. Clearly Europe has enough agency to defend itself and its not “ripe for taking” like you imagine it is.

Putin is such a fucking moron. What he should have done after 1989 is taking a step back, fucking process what happend in the meantime, and move on from the world view that was created in a century with two fucking world wars. Then he could have built a strong Eastern block with Russia as a flagship, but based on collaboration instead of dominance. Noone says that Russia has to be an enemy of Europe, it could be a part of it by now. But no, Putin plays the big bad wolf for 30 fucking years, goes as far as annexing Crimea in 2014 and now wants to play the victim when NATO stands up against him. Its your own fucking fault, you dickhead! Look at China, they sort of understood the assignment and they are doing a lot better than Russia.

I just hope when Putin dies his attitude goes with him. The world is ready to change for the better.

I'm staunchly pro European and pro liberal democracy and anti-dictatorship, Don't mistake me for @zazen.

I just connected the dots in my head and what I wrote in this thread is the end result of me connecting some dots. It is not about returning of communism or the USSR, this is laughable. But in Putin's mind, because the USSR lost 20 million of lives during their war with the nazis, they feel entitled to have half of Europe as a consolation gift for the 20 million of lives lost. Putin stresses this all the time. Russia wants eastern Europe as a buffer that will be between itself and the western led world which would be led by the US. Russia doesn't want to militarily occupy Europe, Russia wants a Victor Orban in each eastern European country. Russia wants the EU out of Eastern Europe. And Trump will happily fulfill Russia this wish because the US no longer has the resources to carry on its back a region that in Putin's mind, is already culturally, ideologically, religiously, corruption level -wise aligned with Russia.

That's my own conclusion. Say what you want about it. 

[Daniel Balan]

If Russia wasn't broke in the 90's, all of the former Warsaw pact countries except East Germany and maybe Czechia, all those countries would have alligned themselves with Russia because Eastern Europe is corrupt to the bone as is Russia. The only reason those countries moved towards the EU was for the money. Had Russia not been broke, all of eastern Europe would have migrated back to Russia, because Russia is the license for unchecked corruption while the EU is the kryptonite of corruption. And all of eastern Europe loves corruption. For Russia and Eastern Europe corruption is not a bug, but a highly desired and loved feature. Corruption is litteraly God for these countries. And if corruption is God, then Russia is the priest.

Edited yesterday at 12:19 AM by Daniel Balan

[Ajay0]

The US has a 38 trillion dollar debt, the largest in the world, which is increasing in leaps and bounds, and can create catastrophic damage and American decline if not managed properly.

Trump, a shrewd businessman, realizes this better than his predecessors , and consequently is creating pacts to reduce the haemorrhaging of American economy and also redirect it from a potential nuclear war with Russia, which can end the American dream forever.

This is why he wants Europe alone to fight Russia and keep the US out of it opportunistically so that only Europe will end up as the loser.

However European nations are also not free from debt and economic crises, and the loss of cheap energy from Russia replaced by highly expensive energy from the US has increased inflation and poverty in Europe.

Though less than past years, this is why Europe still pays many billions to Russia each month for its energy, or else the economic backlash can be severe on the european economy as well.

This is why the  EU, that is at war with Russia with western media narratives proclaiming it as its most dangerous adversary, and at the same feeding it billions of euros each month for its fuel and adequately funding its war campaign.

Since Russia’s war in Ukraine began, the EU has paid over €220 billion for Russian energy - about the same amount that Russia has spent on its war.

It is similar to criticizing a ruffian for kicking one's behind and then paying him well for some valuables he has in his pocket. And then continuing the same process again and again endlessly. 

It is clear that EU still wants cheap Russian fuel to power its economy rather than going to poverty, and at the same time they want Nato to come to russian borders.  Both cannot happen at the same time.

If they want Nato at Russian borders, they should be willing to leave all of Russian fuel and risk greater poverty and a weaker economy in the process.

If this is not an option for EU, then they should get to negotiations with the Russians.

Obviously if trade is good enough for EU to give the russians billions each month even in wartime, why not sit and talk about the weather as well and later on about each other's security considerations and create a best case scenario for both parties. 

Edited yesterday at 04:55 AM by Ajay0

[Sandroew]

8 hours ago, Daniel Balan said:

If Russia wasn't broke in the 90's, all of the former Warsaw pact countries except East Germany and maybe Czechia, all those countries would have alligned themselves with Russia because Eastern Europe is corrupt to the bone as is Russia.

Im from Hungary. We literally have a national holiday representing the people who fought for our independence. Google the 1956 revolution in Hungary. That was in ‘56 !! Viktor Orbán started as a voice of independence in ‘89. Believe me, aligning ourself with Russia as in Russia as any sort of leader is not what we think about.

And i can tell you its the same with almost any former Warsaw pact countries. We arent the same as Western Europe i’ll give you that, but we are not under the sphere of Russian influence and we never be. That way of thinking is the remnant of the last century. Time to move on.

[Daniel Balan]

@Sandroew You are probably living in a big urban centre, but rural Hungary wants Russia, I've been across Europe and I know what the peasants want, only educated people from big cities want the west, the rural people which are close to 50% of any country in Eastern Europe, want back with Russia. You can't deny that.

[Ajay0]

34 minutes ago, Sandroew said:

We arent the same as Western Europe i’ll give you that, but we are not under the sphere of Russian influence and we never be. That way of thinking is the remnant of the last century. Time to move on.

Russia already have major sphere's of influence in Asia, Africa and South America.

Brics is largers than G7 and accounts for nearly half of the world population in itself. Russia boasts of friends like China, India, Indonesia Kazhakasthan, Saudi Arabia,  Brazil, South Africa, Nigeria, Vietnam, Mongolia and so on.

Why should Russia be interested in some very small eastern european countries which does not have any major economic strength or resources to boast of ?

Russia's only interest in eastern europe is in its neighbors on the border for obvious security reasons !
 

[zazen]

10 hours ago, Daniel Balan said:

I'm staunchly pro European and pro liberal democracy and anti-dictatorship, Don't mistake me for @zazen.

Lol bro i'm pro European too - pro world in fact. These labels can be way too limiting - we slap them on too easily and think they explain everything. Life is much more complex and ''liberal democracy'' whatever one thinks that is isn't the final form or universal model we are all ''developing towards''.  There's all these assumptions which come along with these terms we use.

One assumption of being a liberal democracy is that it's the only and best model to cut corruption. Singapore, UAE and China beg to differ. Another conflation that happens is between liberal progressiveness as a cultural phenomenon with liberal democracy as a system - we think that because the political system is a certain way - the culture will and should follow as a end point. Poland, Hungary etc are electoral democracies with rights frameworks (liberal democracies)  - but socially and culturally more conservative. Singapore protects property rights and operates under constitutional rule but rejects social liberalism. Not everything has to be identical to the West to be legitimate.

We should also interrogate our own democracies - is it just enough that we have the right to vote or is the impact of that vote equally important? Does the center of power exist at the presidential level the way we think it does or is there deeper layer of multiple interests groups ie the permanent bureaucracy or ''blob'' or ''deep state''. Are we really in democracies in the way we think and define them?

I staunchly disagree with what liberalism has turned into or permitted today in the West:

 

Maybe Zelensky should be sent 2-3 year Dagestan and forget haha

On a serious note about how to Make Europe Great Again lol. If Europe wants to be militarily sovereign and have a unified military umbrella like NATO  - the issue becomes who leads the command structure when you have 27 nations?

The issue with NATO is that the command structure is American. You can have all the military might in terms of arms and men ready to fight or protect Europe - but they require the political will to do so collectively and the command structure that is able to coordinate them against any adversary.

The world is getting much more complex - and in that kind of a world it will be the political systems that are the most nimble, flexible and adaptable that will deal better with that pace of change. The issue we have in the West and the EU is political paralysis and slowness of everything. This is a massive disadvantage in today's world and needs to be fixed. 

Edited yesterday at 10:24 AM by zazen

[Sandroew]

1 hour ago, Ajay0 said:

 

Why should Russia be interested in some very small eastern european countries which does not have any major economic strength or resources to boast of ?

Russia's only interest in eastern europe is in its neighbors on the border for obvious security reasons !
 

[Sandroew]

Russia is basically just the most eastern part of Europe. Of course they should be interested in their neighbors like any other country is. And europe including the ex soviet union members is by far their most important international partner. I dont think BRIC has any relevance in this. First of all BRIC is not created with the goal to be an opponent of the West. Neither is it a military pact like NATO. 

[Twentyfirst]

17 hours ago, zazen said:

But for all this they also need to compete and innovate economically especially in tech which they  are behind China and the US in.

What are the odds they can innovate? I hate that stupid water bottle in EU where you can't remove the cap. I like that they made Apple switch to Type C charging. What else are they up to lol

I think USA must have learned their lesson with allowing China to become the manufacturing powerhouse of the world. They will de industrialize EU

[Twentyfirst]

15 minutes ago, Sandroew said:

Russia is basically just the most eastern part of Europe. 

That's funny you worded it that way

Europe is Western Asia. The Middle East is officially West Asia but Asia just keeps going beyond that into Europe. Eurasia maybe?

[Daniel Balan]

6 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

That's funny you worded it that way

Europe is Western Asia. The Middle East is officially West Asia but Asia just keeps going beyond that into Europe. Eurasia maybe?

This is the equivalent of putting the cart before the horse.

[Sandroew]

Im saying that with economic integration in mind and not as a geographical statement.

[Daniel Balan]

Russia wants Eastern Europe as an ideological buffer rather than a military defence buffer. The west will never invade Russia. Nor did the west will ever even think about a potential invasion of Russia. This is total nonsense. Even by historical WW2 accounts the Russian paranoya holds no water. Without the West in WW2 Russia would have been defeated in WW2 by the fascists. The west offered tremendous support for Russia and even started a second front in order to speed up the defeat of the fascists. So Russia being afraid of NATO is nonsense and holds no water whatsoever. 

The real danger that is threatening Russia is ideological. The west with its close proximity to Russia is a huge threat because once the "woke liberal mind virus" starts infecting the Russian public, all the corrupt ways of todays Russia will be eradicated. A lot of powerful people will lose all the privileges that they have now, and that is precisely why that corrupt elite in order to mentain their corruption, they must create a physical barrier with conservative pro Russian, anti -EU countries so that the danger of the "liberal virus" crossing into Russia from the West due to the very close proximity, will be reduced to zero. Thats why Russians have no access to western media. This is what this war is all about. Creating an ideological buffer zone so that Russia can conserve its corrupt status quo as long as possible and without any foreign liberal interference from the west.

Thats my conclusion. I don't give a fuck if you guys will contradict me. I will never allow any fucker to ever gaslight me about my perception of reality, EVER AGAIN. 

[Daniel Balan]

Have you noticed? The most corrupt people, the biggest thiefs from your country are pro Russian and anti-EU and as of late pro-Trump. 

Why? 

Because under a Russian sphere of influence they will have license and free hand from Russia to steal and and enhance their survival on the backs of the plebs on ways like never before. Russian influence means license dirrecly from the government that stealing like hell is allowed and is also the new status quo. 

Thats why the most corrupt people are pro Russian and staunchly anti-EU.

The EU allows a lot of theft too, but it is child's play compared to the kind of theft that Russia allows.

[Sandroew]

I’ll respectfully back off then, there was no ill intent from my part.

18 minutes ago, Daniel Balan said:

The real danger that is threatening Russia is ideological. The west with its close proximity to Russia is a huge threat because once the "woke liberal mind virus" starts infecting the Russian public, all the corrupt ways of todays Russia will be eradicated.

We actually sort of agree on that part in our views.

[Daniel Balan]

@Sandroew no need to back off. I really appreciated your input. The thing is, I've been called all my life stupid and my patience is at an end. Sometimes when you see me calling gaslighting, it is just my ego's projection mechanisms kicking in, because no one ever took my perspective seriously, I've always been mocked and frankly I truly believe that sometimes my perspective is accurate and truthful. Especially after months of contemplation and independent thinking. I'm not parroting anyone here. I connect dots from everywhere and when I complete the puzzle in my mind, I share with others, and it drives me insane to be told that I am wrong or to be dismissed as a wishful thinker.

I am stupid many times, but sometimes I am really confident that my perspective is accurate.