What's the point of trying to understand reality, if reality is mystical?

[Ishanga]

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

When your understanding of Reality gets high enough, Reality becomes a never-ending mystical experience.

That's the point.

This is True, and never ending/infinity/endless Potential cannot be expressed via logic, via words, communication so that the one receiving the communication is instantly transformed, it can only inspire, maybe create a temp change,, Shit even ppl that take dmt/5 meo after having what they say is "God" like experience and come back proclaiming they are GOD, soon after go back to bad habits and old patterns, so Karma Rules, as You say it is all in our Genes, well Genes are one aspect of Karma, there are other forms of memory and conditioning being applied upon Us daily, so being Super Aware is key, that brings Clarity as a natural by product, via Clarity we transform, Bliss is normal, "What about Me" drops aside and then we can really explore this Infinity Possibility making machine we call Absolute!

[Joshe]

On 12/6/2025 at 5:09 AM, TheSelf said:

Actually most minds loves to create complexity out of almost every situations. It's in the nature of the mind to make a lot of movements as it survives in such waves. Go look out in the world, Talk to people.

It's not that minds love to create complexity, it's that they strive for answers/solutions. It's in seeking the solutions where complexity arises, but when most minds don't have any problems they're trying to solve, they are happy at rest and actually prefer simplicity. Some minds have a high Need for Cognition and some are neurotic and some are just bored. These minds DO seek and manufacture complexity, but this isn't the majority of humans. The majority of humans avoid complexity as much as they can. Also, "complexity" is relative. 

On 12/6/2025 at 5:16 AM, TheSelf said:

Basically you are saying, how do we know if the truth is simple or complex.

It's neither actually.

Cause the Truth most transcend the mind as the mind can only see a thing or a situation as complex or simple, labeling is a thing the mind does. But there could be states in which the mind and thinking isn't there but the truth remains the same.

Truth just is.

What I'm saying is you cannot avoid complexity. Can you find a solution or the truth without delving into the complex? Most often not. The whole process of problem-solving and truth-seeking is inherently complex. You're seeking abstract answers to abstract things. You could only say the truth is simple once you've traversed the complex landscapes and found it such. 

You do not arrive at "the truth just is" without engaging with much complexity. 

Edited 11 hours ago by Joshe

[Eskilon]

9 minutes ago, Joshe said:

You do not arrive at "the truth just is" without engaging with much complexity. 

Hmm, not sure about this. Is meditation complex? If one just meditates(avoid the mind completely) and finds Truth, what is the complexity in this situation? Can you have complexity without the thinking mind?

Reality cannot be pinned down to complexity, it must have the other end too. It must be absolutely simple as well. And it doesnt necessarily need this progression; that is from complexity to simplicity.

Edited 12 hours ago by Eskilon

[Natasha Tori Maru]

There's no complexity about surrender.

You just drop everything.

[Joshe]

3 minutes ago, Eskilon said:

Hmm, not sure about this. Is meditation complex? If one just meditates(avoid the mind completely) and finds Truth, what is the complexity in this situation? Can you have complexity without the thinking mind?

You can't have complexity without the thinking mind. But one does not even start a meditation practice without the thinking mind. 

How did one arrive at the idea of meditation? Did they read a book full of abstract ideas and then pondered those ideas with the thinking mind before they decided to give it a try? Did they put "meditation" on the slate of consciousness for examination? And when they meditated, did they observe the nature of thought and draw conclusions about what they experienced relative to what the book said? 

Of course they did. This is all complex (not simple).

[Joshe]

2 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

There's no complexity about surrender.

You just drop everything.

But you have go through complexity to see that. Otherwise, how can one know they didn't miss anything? lol. 

You can tell a newbie - "Just surrender and let go", but that will almost never work, IMO. 

Edited 12 hours ago by Joshe

[Natasha Tori Maru]

2 minutes ago, Joshe said:

But you have go through complexity to see that. Otherwise, how can one know they didn't miss anything? lol. 

You can tell a newbie - "Just surrender and let go", but that will almost never work, IMO. 

There's still no complexity to it....

You are pointing to the issue that you are stuck in - the mind and intellect 

Edited 12 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[Joshe]

1 minute ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

There's still no complexity to it....

Only once you know that. 

From your vantage point, there is no complexity, but only because you've traversed a very complex landscape to find that truth.

Edited 12 hours ago by Joshe

[Natasha Tori Maru]

1 minute ago, Joshe said:

Only once you know that. 

So what does that tell you? There's still no complexity.

[Leo Gura]

@Natasha Tori Maru Have you tried surrendering to complexity?

[Joshe]

1 minute ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

So what does that tell you? There's still no complexity.

Think of a game where your avatar is on a tiny sliver a map and you can only see a small portion of the map and the only way to see the rest of the map is to traverse it. If the player is approached by a lone peaceful traveler and the traveler tells the player the truth of the map, they cannot know for sure.  They have to make the difficult trek. They cannot avoid the complexity.

 

[Eskilon]

@Joshe I guess  your position makes sense if we are talking about the relative domain.

But it is still biased, maybe that little step by step work on this dream, but it might not be all there is.

Edited 11 hours ago by Eskilon

[Joshe]

1 minute ago, Eskilon said:

@Joshe I guess  your position makes sense if we are talking about the relative domain.

But it is still too biased, maybe that little step by step work on this dream, but it might not be all there is.

Is that how Truth works? Does it toggle on or off depending on your conceptual/perceptual frame?

If it's true in one, it must be true in the other. 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

27 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Natasha Tori Maru Have you tried surrendering to complexity?

Fucken...LOL absolute reverse uno card - well played 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

23 minutes ago, Joshe said:

They have to make the difficult trek. They cannot avoid the complexity.

I think what I am pointing to is - are you sure this isn't an assumption?

I only ask this because you are attempting to approach this from the finite human intellect.

You talk about traversing the map to understand it/grasp it - but what if all you need to do is take off the frosted glasses?

[Joshe]

1 hour ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I think what I am pointing to is - are you sure this isn't an assumption?

I only ask this because you are attempting to approach this from the finite human intellect.

You talk about traversing the map to understand it/grasp it - but what if all you need to do is take off the frosted glasses?

I'm not 100% sure of anything except consciousness exists and certain things within it cannot intelligently be denied.

Consciousness can only know a thing by a process of discovery (fact). 

In your consciousness, what led to you knowing you were wearing frosted glasses most of your life?

I can't tell you exactly what, but I can tell you the discovery was the result of a very complex process, involving much contemplation, observations, questions, etc. This I know, the same as I know 1 + 1 = 2. The structure that underlies 1 + 1 = 2, is the very structure that supports my claim that you cannot know the map until you traverse it.

Taking off the glasses involved much complexity. You don't simply "take off the glasses".

 

Edited 10 hours ago by Joshe

[Natasha Tori Maru]

8 minutes ago, Joshe said:

Taking off the glasses involved much complexity. You don't simply "take off the glasses".

All it took was me becoming aware I was wearing them.

How you get there is surrender. Which goes back to it not being complex.

Obviously I am not putting this to words in a way that is illustrating the above... which possibly goes back to it being... understood through being? When I read my statements, thinking how they would present if I had not had my own realization of my nature, it wouldn't make sense. So any failure to communicate is probably on me - or on the method (text, english, language) itself.

The meaning of the words and statements - surrender and its simplicity - they mean wholly different things to me now.

Edited 10 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[Joshe]

31 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

All it took was me becoming aware I was wearing them.

How you get there is surrender. Which goes back to it not being complex.

Obviously I am not putting this to words in a way that is illustrating the above... which possibly goes back to it being... understood through being? When I read my statements, thinking how they would present if I had not had my own realization of my nature, it wouldn't make sense. So any failure to communicate is probably on me - or on the method (text, english, language) itself.

The meaning of the words and statements - surrender and its simplicity - they mean wholly different things to me now.

I see. Well, I admit that I don't think I'm that spiritually advanced, so I always leave room for error in these types of convos and remain open-minded.

Still - I know human psychology very well. I know that when people experience a "surrender" (I've also experienced this), it's not truly a spontaneous thing. It's the result of a long process and an eventual culmination of many things they've processed, which is incredibly complex if you mapped it out. That's all I was saying. 

If you collapse it into a single thing, I think it would serve to confuse more than facilitate. 

The path to "surrender" is long an arduous. One doesn't simply magic wand their way like Mario. 

Edited 9 hours ago by Joshe

[Natasha Tori Maru]

31 minutes ago, Joshe said:

The path to "surrender" is long an arduous. 

The fact you keep repeating this reads (complex, arduous or some such synonym) as doubling down without considering that it could be anything else. 

I might implore you to consider you may not be willing to drop the idea it is complex - because you are convinced you 'know'.

Quote

I know human psychology very well. I know that when people experience a "surrender"

As shown above - this 'knowing' - how can you remain open to anything else if you are convinced you know? How can you consider anything else in a state of 'knowing'? This is why it appears to me you are approaching this intent on your own knowledge already being certain, rather than really open to what could possibly be said regarding grasping reality.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

All you need to consider is what you think understanding reality is going to be (or look like, present as) isn't what you think it is going to be, or look like. Or present as. The concept of “ultimate understanding” is built out of the very limitations that understanding would dissolve.