Reconciling “Frame” with Truth/Consciousness in Dating & Social Life

[alexlazk]

Hi everyone—this is my first post here. If I’m missing any rules, please let me know and I’ll fix it.

I’ve been following Leo’s work for a while and keep up a mindfulness practice. A big area I’m trying to grow is interpersonal relationships. I’m not super introverted; I’ve had a couple of meaningful relationships and I’m currently single and doing fine—but I want to keep developing, getting out more, and becoming more successful with girls .

Lately I’ve been exploring ideas about what attracts the feminine, along with teachings of Leo and from people like Owen Cook and Jeff Allen. A lot of this centers on “frame”—the notion that the mind creates the reality we perceive and that you can consciously narrate (and reframe) the story of an interaction.

Here’s my tension: this sometimes feels at odds with a commitment to truth. On one hand, we all carry limiting beliefs and a “monkey mind” that distort reality; reframing can help expose those distortions. On the other hand, “creating a story” about an interaction can feel like I’m manufacturing something rather than aligning with what’s real. And socialization itself can sometimes feel like it pulls me away from deepening consciousness.

I’d love your perspectives on how to reconcile these points:

-Can “frame” be practiced in a way that’s deeply honest and non-manipulative? What does that look like in real conversations?

-How do you tell the difference between self-authorship and self-deception?

-What practices (specific meditations, journaling prompts, in-the-moment check-ins) help you stay grounded in truth while engaging socially?

-Any frameworks or books that bridge nondual/consciousness work with dating/relational skills?

Thanks for reading and for any guidance. If I missed a posting rule, I’m happy to correct it.

[samijiben]

Staying grounded in truth while engaging socially seem incompatible. 

If anyone has an answer to your riddle, I would be happy to hear it..

[aurum]

57 minutes ago, alexlazk said:

-Can “frame” be practiced in a way that’s deeply honest and non-manipulative? What does that look like in real conversations?

Yes.

Your frame can be aligned with reality or it can be deeply self-deceived. Obviously if you're into self-actualization, we aim for the former.

It looks like you being grounded in truth and then simply holding your center.

Remember that your job as the masculine is to hold the frame. Frame control = leadership.

She needs this from you, otherwise she cannot surrender. 

57 minutes ago, alexlazk said:

-How do you tell the difference between self-authorship and self-deception?

There is no easy solution here.

You must do years of introspection, contemplation and inner work.

57 minutes ago, alexlazk said:

-What practices (specific meditations, journaling prompts, in-the-moment check-ins) help you stay grounded in truth while engaging socially?

You don't necessarily need anything overly specific or formal.

Introspection, contemplation, meditation.

I like engaging with this forum to help clarify my thoughts.

57 minutes ago, alexlazk said:

-Any frameworks or books that bridge nondual/consciousness work with dating/relational skills?

That's a very tricky thing to do.

You've already found many good resources. I would spend less time reading books and more time engaging with women and contemplating about your experiences.

One powerful experience with a woman will be worth more than reading 50 books.

[alexlazk]

@aurum Thank you very much for your detailed response. I definitely see impartial contemplation as the only path.

2 hours ago, aurum said:

It looks like you being grounded in truth and then simply holding your center.

Remember that your job as the masculine is to hold the frame. Frame control = leadership.

What really confuses me is how I’m going to convince myself to have the mindset and confidence needed without gaslighting myself. I’m afraid that too much self-esteem can turn into delusion.

[Miguel1]

Hi, and welcome to the forum.

So to preface, I have a lot of dating experience. We are talking 10k+ approaches, 10 years of on and off gaming, multiple long-term gfs etc.

And the short answer to your question is: do not aim for Truth in dating. That's the surest way to lose all your girls. I was like you and I had to learn it the hard way, again and again because I was stubborn. Perhaps you need to learn it the hard way too.

Of course there is always an exception to the rule, but in this case, the exception is virtually non-existent. Take me for example, I am 30 years old (actually 31, I turned today!), the girls I find attractive are around my age and younger. How many of girls in this age group is highly develop and conscious? And how many of those are also physically attractive enough?

Girls unlike us, are emotional beings. Even the most conscious women are not necessarily doing hard-truth type of spirituality. They are more people orientated, like girls in general are. Teal Swan teaches trauma and relationships for example.

So to summarize: destroying fantasies of girls with truth is a damn terrible idea. Doing the opposite is what gets you the results in dating.

Thing of dating more like money making. Exhaust that desire, burn through the karma, and then let it go. Transcend higher.

Edited 10 hours ago by Miguel1

[aurum]

10 minutes ago, Miguel1 said:

So to summarize: destroying fantasies of girls with truth is a damn terrible idea

Destroying her fantasies is not frame control.

[Schizophonia]

Just now, aurum said:

Destroying her fantasies is not frame control.

"Telling women the truth."

"The truth."

Lol what on earth does that bullshit even mean?

[aurum]

51 minutes ago, alexlazk said:

What really confuses me is how I’m going to convince myself to have the mindset and confidence needed without gaslighting myself. I’m afraid that too much self-esteem can turn into delusion.

Good, that tells you’re not interested in being some narcissist.

But consider the following:

1) Frame control doesn’t mean you have to be rigid all the time or can’t change your mind

2) Truth is actually possible to grasp

3) Your self-doubt and fear could also be self-deception

[Schizophonia]

18 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

"Telling women the truth."

"The truth."

Lol what on earth does that bullshit even mean?

When a guy here say that, i wonder if they did that at their date :

-"🙂🍸"

-"btw, i have something to admit in case we go together "

-"Yes ?🧐 "

-"I love receiving a finger in the anus while being in doggystyle 🤗😏"

-"🤨"

-"When I moan and stick out my tongue, thinking my prostate is being caressed, it's like I'm flying."😱

 

Some time later on Actualized...

 

"You will discover that you shouldn't tell women the truth, that's the black pill you have to accept. " 

Edited 10 hours ago by Schizophonia

[aurum]

It’s not necessary to bash women over the head with truth to assert your frame.

The correct orientation is that she feels the solidity of your frame. Then her psyche surrenders in response.

[Kid A]

47 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

When a guy here say that, i wonder if they did that at their date :

-"🙂🍸"

-"btw, i have something to admit in case we go together "

-"Yes ?🧐 "

-"I love receiving a finger in the anus while being in doggystyle 🤗😏"

-"🤨"

-"When I moan and stick out my tongue, thinking my prostate is being caressed, it's like I'm flying."😱

 

Some time later on Actualized...

 

"You will discover that you shouldn't tell women the truth, that's the black pill you have to accept. " 

🤣

Seriously though: Once, I gave my then-girlfriend some insight into how attracted we men are to women’s looks. She was really shocked and I knew immediately that I had made a huge mistake. The relationship didn’t last long after that… I’ve also been top honest about other (non-sexual) things to other women I’ve dated and they lost attraction permanently. My impression is that it usually doesn’t take much to give a woman the ick, and there’s usually no way back from that, so I think it’s a good advice to be careful with truth if you don’t want to lose her.

[Schizophonia]

2 minutes ago, Kid A said:

🤣

Seriously though: Once, I gave my then-girlfriend some insight into how attracted we men are to women’s looks. She was really shocked and I knew immediately that I had made a huge mistake. The relationship didn’t last long after that… I’ve also been top honest about other (non-sexual) things to other women I’ve dated and they lost attraction permanently. My impression is that it usually doesn’t take much to give a woman the ick, and there’s usually no way back from that, so I think it’s a good advice to be careful with truth if you don’t want to lose her.

Because the underlying intention was mean, passive-aggressive.

[Miguel1]

1 hour ago, aurum said:

Destroying her fantasies is not frame control.

Truth = destruction of fantasies, self-deceptions, lies, BS.

OP started a conversation about whether there is reconciliation between frame control and Truth. I answered to that.

[alexlazk]

2 hours ago, Miguel1 said:

So to summarize: destroying fantasies of girls with truth is a damn terrible idea. Doing the opposite is what gets you the results in dating.

Thing of dating more like money making. Exhaust that desire, burn through the karma, and then let it go. Transcend higher.

Edited 1 hour ago by Miguel1

These last two lines definitely resonate. I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. I need to keep both worlds separate. And as you say, the right approach is to let go—to burn off all that prior karma before transcending further. I need to have that settled first, to focus, before thinking about, well, higher-level self-actualization.

[alexlazk]

1 hour ago, aurum said:

3) Your self-doubt and fear could also be self-deception

You're absolutely right; that might also be a mechanism of the ego to keep itself stuck where it is.

[aurum]

2 hours ago, Miguel1 said:

Truth = destruction of fantasies, self-deceptions, lies, BS.

OP started a conversation about whether there is reconciliation between frame control and Truth. I answered to that.

It was a good point.

My point though is that you don't have to do that to maintain frame.

Frame control is more about you staying aligned with truth than convincing her of truth.