I`m Confused WIth Free Will

[SimpleGuy]

Hello. Please, help me resolve this issue of free will.

I watched old Leo`s video about Free Will vs Determinism where he claims that Free Will doesn`t exist. But how does that works with 100% responsibility for your life?

If Free Will doesn`t exist, it means we are not responsible for our lives, thus we are victims, aren`t we?

I really tried to contemplate this issue, but I have only that conclusion above. So it`s quite hard for me to do any work because if free will doesn`t exist, everything will flow it`s own way.

Thanks for reading.

[zurew]

2 hours ago, SimpleGuy said:

If Free Will doesn`t exist, it means we are not responsible for our lives, thus we are victims, aren`t we?

Yes, victims in the sense that you cant change anything, but thats compatible with good changes happening in your life.

The casual confusion is the idea that "if determinism is true, then im not gonna do anything with my life, because im a victim" - no that doesnt follow, because if determinism is true, then you gonna do whatever you gonna do, regardless of what realization you have or dont have about free will. You might be determined to not act like a victim and to become successful.

The line of "then im not gonna do shit from now on" assumes that there is free will, so its kind of a performative contradiction.

So if determinism is true, then yes its hard for you to do the work, but also hard for you to not  do the work.

 

------

 

But regardless, you will experience life as though you have free will. And depending on what you mean by determinism, there are versions where you dont have any control over your actions and thoughts, but you still have control over how you react to those situations in your mind. So under that you can watch the movie of your life go down either a peaceful or a non-peaceful way, while you acting out an act that you have no control over.

And also, I wouldnt be confident in determinism just because Leo said so. You dont know which one is true, so if I were you I would act as though I have free will, and if there is in fact free will, then you can make a difference, and if there isn't any at all and you cant even have control over how you react to things in your mind, then none of this discussion and none of your drawn conclusions matter.

Edited yesterday at 11:13 AM by zurew

[Ishanga]

3 hours ago, SimpleGuy said:

Hello. Please, help me resolve this issue of free will.

I watched old Leo`s video about Free Will vs Determinism where he claims that Free Will doesn`t exist. But how does that works with 100% responsibility for your life?

If Free Will doesn`t exist, it means we are not responsible for our lives, thus we are victims, aren`t we?

I really tried to contemplate this issue, but I have only that conclusion above. So it`s quite hard for me to do any work because if free will doesn`t exist, everything will flow it`s own way.

Thanks for reading.

Free Will exists for sure, especially if Your 100% Responsible for Your Life, the two are one and the same...

In Yoga philosophy there is something called Samsara, the Wheel of Life, its part of the Karma theory, Karma means Action, for Humans there are 4 basic areas of Action going on every moment, Body Action, Mind Action, Emotional Action and Energy Action, most Humans I would say are less than 1% Conscious of any of the Actions going on in these areas, but we can be 100% conscious, that is the point of Yoga and using it as a method..

Samsara is basically the Situation You are in, what family You were born into, what country and culture, what time period, etc, You cannot do anything about those things except on How Your Respond to It! If You react (unconscious action) then You will let all of the above rule You, the culture will rule You, your family will rule You, your work, your government, your surroundings (good weather, bad weather, by the water, on land) will rule You.  For a Human this is Tragedy... If You Respond (Conscious Action) to these things then You decide how to Feel about it, how to Experience Life within It.

Fundamental Existence, like the act of creation, the Earth the way it is, Universe and such, and more basic life forms, are deterministic in nature, certain things have to be determined for things to be the way they are, if the Earth was an undetermined entity, then no life could exist on it, gravity would fluctuate, the atmosphere and all other elements/forces would not allow life to flourish as it has, only Humans have the ability to really get out of this loop of Determination and explore Free Will!

So that is the choice, Free Will is our basic Human Capability but very few evoke it and use it in their lives, they think it doesn't exist but it does, Choose wisely!!

Edited yesterday at 11:38 AM by Ishanga

[UnbornTao]

Does it really matter? It all boils down to an estimation you make. We're not even clear about the subject that supposedly has - or lacks - free will.

To use a metaphor, you're already the source of your experience, like a video game developer creating their own game. Owning your actions and becoming responsible for your life is an empowering stance to adopt. Responsibility doesn't mean blame, though - and neither does this imply that you're actually responsible for everything that happens in life - it simply means that's the attitude you take on.

Edited 6 hours ago by UnbornTao

[zurew]

2 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

Does it really matter? It boils down to an estimation you make. We're not even clear about the subject that supposedly has - or lacks - free will.

Yeah this is quite important to mention.

The question and the problem is often times loaded with a specific sense of 'you' that is taken for granted.

[Ishanga]

7 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

Does it really matter? It all boils down to an estimation you make. We're not even clear about the subject that supposedly has - or lacks - free will. You're already the source of your experience, like a video game developer creating their own game. Owning your actions and becoming responsible for your life is an empowering stance to adopt. Responsibility doesn't mean blame, though - and neither does this imply that you're actually responsible for everything that happens in life - it simply means that's the attitude you take on.

Of course it matters! If You buy into there is no Free Will, then what is the point of life if it is already predetermined and written in stone?

Its important to explore these things and find out what is Truth and what is not Truth Yes?

Free Will is an aspect and quality of life that is available to Us Humans more so than any other life form, so should we just not concern ourselves with it, and let life go on as it is? If Your suffering for no real reason (self caused suffering, feeling anxious or depressed about something that does not yet exist, living in fear when there is nothing to be fearful of, etc), isn't it important to find a way to not suffer anymore?

One problem we have today in the world is that ppl are not redefining what words mean to adjust to their personal belief systems..  We can talk about a subject on this forum, and ppl will have completely different definitions of words and understanding of things so that for sure arguments and conflict arise, so this is a huge problem, ppl will say Free Will is exactly this, when it may be a part of that but also other things, so we have to explore these concepts for ourselves, not be too influenced by what others say, especially others that have no credibility or authority with the subject matter...

[SimpleGuy]

2 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Does it really matter? It all boils down to an estimation you make. We're not even clear about the subject that supposedly has - or lacks - free will. You're already the source of your experience, like a video game developer creating their own game. Owning your actions and becoming responsible for your life is an empowering stance to adopt. Responsibility doesn't mean blame, though - and neither does this imply that you're actually responsible for everything that happens in life - it simply means that's the attitude you take on.

You mean that even though Free Will doesn`t exist, we still should take 100% responsibility to achieve goals in our lives?

[SimpleGuy]

3 hours ago, zurew said:

Yes, victims in the sense that you cant change anything, but thats compatible with good changes happening in your life.

The casual confusion is the idea that "if determinism is true, then im not gonna do anything with my life, because im a victim" - no that doesnt follow, because if determinism is true, then you gonna do whatever you gonna do, regardless of what realization you have or dont have about free will. You might be determined to not act like a victim and to become successful.

The line of "then im not gonna do shit from now on" assumes that there is free will, so its kind of a performative contradiction.

So if determinism is true, then yes its hard for you to do the work, but also hard for you to not  do the work.

 

------

 

But regardless, you will experience life as though you have free will. And depending on what you mean by determinism, there are versions where you dont have any control over your actions and thoughts, but you still have control over how you react to those situations in your mind. So under that you can watch the movie of your life go down either a peaceful or a non-peaceful way, while you acting out an act that you have no control over.

And also, I wouldnt be confident in determinism just because Leo said so. You dont know which one is true, so if I were you I would act as though I have free will, and if there is in fact free will, then you can make a difference, and if there isn't any at all and you cant even have control over how you react to things in your mind, then none of this discussion and none of your drawn conclusions matter.

You wrote so many words and I didn`t get much of what you were saying. 

I only got that line:

3 hours ago, zurew said:

So if determinism is true, then yes its hard for you to do the work, but also hard for you to not  do the work.

 

So is it what you really tried to say?

[zurew]

1 hour ago, SimpleGuy said:

So is it what you really tried to say?

Im just trying to break down the different versions of determinism and trying to show some of the entailments that comes from those views and also try to point out that depending on what is true, what actions you can take (without trying to push a particular view on you).

The other main point is that the creation of this whole thread only make sense if you assume some level of control, because otherwise people giving you answers wont change anything, since under determinism even your reaction to those answers are completely predetermined (including what actions you will take, and what feelings and thoughts those answers will create within you).

The other main point is that you shouldnt use Leo as an authority figure on the topic,and all of this is just speculation. Its pragmatically beneficial to act as though free will is true, because it might actually be true.

[SimpleGuy]

8 minutes ago, zurew said:

Im just trying to break down the different versions of determinism and trying to show some of the entailments that comes from those views and also try to point out that depending on what is true, what actions you can take (without trying to push a particular view on you).

The other main point is that the creation of this whole thread only make sense if you assume some level of control, because otherwise people giving you answers wont change anything, since under determinism even your reaction to those answers are completely predetermined (including what actions you will take, and what feelings and thoughts those answers will create within you).

The other main point is that you shouldnt use Leo as an authority figure on the topic,and all of this is just speculation. Its pragmatically beneficial to act as though free will is true, because it might actually be true.

Yeah, pragmatically belief that free will is true really helps. And I don`t just blindly follow what Leo says. He presented arguments, I verified those with my direct experience and agreed on them. That`s it.

Fuck. After your answer I`m even more confused...

[zurew]

7 minutes ago, SimpleGuy said:

After your answer I`m even more confused...

Then I fucked up. I probably introduced unnecessary nuance, that I shouldnt have.

The one takeway should be just that you dont actually know 100% whats the answer, and you should act as though there is free will.

[UnbornTao]

20 hours ago, SimpleGuy said:

You mean that even though Free Will doesn`t exist, we still should take 100% responsibility to achieve goals in our lives?

Quote

"Then I fucked up. I probably introduced unnecessary nuance, that I shouldnt have.

The one takeway should be just that you dont actually know 100% whats the answer, and you should act as though there is free will."

Pretty much what zurew said above. You notice that your actions have consequences, so pay attention to that fact and own what you do.

Edited 6 hours ago by UnbornTao

[Ishanga]

 

[Hojo]

You dont have free will to decide what to do you have free will to feel what you want about what is happening. When you feel like a victim you enter negative state when you accept you enter positive state.

Remeber you dont have to explain anything to anyone about what you are doing or what is happening.

Life will gaslight you into take sides. ( this is your free will)

Woman will do this especially.

For instance it has happened to me multiple times where I'm sitting there enjoying my life and the topic gets brought up that I'm rich cause I live alone and have no kids. I say im not rich I'm just chilling comfortably. I say if I had a wife then maybe we could save more together cause 1 income pretty much pays the bills and mortgage if I had 2 incomes maybe I'd be rich. Now they are telling me that I should find a wife and pick up more shifts to get more money. Do you see the gaslight?

I never was thinking about any of that and I was sitting comfortably. People just started making problems out of nothing. Now I'm sitting there thinking that I should work harder or go look for a wife for no reason. ( its my free will)

This happens alot more than you think.

Another instance i want to fast 1 day. I go to lunch the people say oh you aren't eating? Are you on a diet? No I'm just not eating right now. Well you should eat. I don't want to im not eating right now. 

Then next meal suddenly you are on a diet. The next day you bring in food and the person says you aren't on a diet anymore? I never was you are gaslighting me into taking an identity.

Its important to pay attention to these as they alter the free will you do have. You have the free will to control your ego thats it and people will try to take your free will from you.

Edited 17 hours ago by Hojo

[Xonas Pitfall]

A man can do what he wants, but he cannot want (choose) what he wants.

You can only be yourself.

God can only be God.

The duality of free will and determinism ultimately collapses.

There is nothing outside of God to control Him; He can be/do whatever, whenever, unrestricted by anyone.

But there is nothing for God to be but God, so He is trapped by Himself. He can only be Himself.

All dualities must ultimately collapse, and so does this one.

You are a victim of yourself. You are controlled by yourself. Therefore, you are free, since the only thing controlling you is yourself, which is the definition of freedom. God is inherently paradoxical, so this is the only correct definition.

Edited 15 hours ago by Xonas Pitfall

[SimpleGuy]

Thanks everyone

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@zurew cheers, the way you phrased your answer cleared up some misunderstandings I had on this topic.

@SimpleGuy thanks for the topic 🌱

[Schizophonia]

Freewill exists as an illusion, a sleight of hand, like everything else in Maya.

Every phenomenon that seems real from a certain point of view falls apart from a different point of view; whether it be free will, time, truth, etc.

Edited 4 hours ago by Schizophonia