12 step groups useful for enlightenment?

[Hafiz]

I just joined a group for Adult Children of Alcoholics. It’s mostly the same steps as AA but I just wanted to ask everyone here if you have used these type of groups to advance your spiritual work? Do they work? Apparently the guys who invented AA first used LSD to get sober from alcohol.

[Inliytened1]

@Hafiz it's not useful i think AA is a detriment.   They put their power into a belief in God which is all concepts.  If you want an actual experience of God you won't get their via AA or anything of the like.

Edited Wednesday at 01:34 AM by Inliytened1

[Hojo]

Beleiving in a higher power and actually seeing it are different. Enlightenment is seeing God with your own eyes. It might make you feel better but not enlightenment.

Enlightenment is realizing you reside no where in the light. You are not in the light at all. When this happens you paradoxically unload all your baggage of the light making your body feel physically lighter. Way lighter you can start flying.

Aa meeting will never make you able to physically fly.

Enlightenment is a metaphysical phenomenon. It has nothing to do with anything you have seen with light. It has to do with what you cant see with light.

It might 'lighten' the load for the thing not seen by the light but enlightenment is lightening the entire load in 5 seconds.

You actually want to keep the load on until enlightenment as the load helps you become enlightened.

Edited Wednesday at 02:09 AM by Hojo

[Hafiz]

Hojo I know enlightenment won’t make me fly lol, I think you are very confused.

[Leo Gura]

No. It is a group for dysfunction people who can barely keep their shit together.

Such people are clueless about God. They are too psychologically broken to do serious existential work.

They are useful in the sense that if you are a dysfunctional addict then these groups can help you reform your ways, so you stop being a total degenerate. And then there is a chance that you can do some serious spiritual work.

Edited Wednesday at 06:27 AM by Leo Gura

[Inliytened1]

@Leo Gura What it is is they render themselves completely powerless to their addiction and put that power into God to save them.  And then the rest is just following the steps and going by a strict book.   But I believe if you are to beat an addiction you have to find the power inside you.  The God factor is insignificant to what we teach because they are so far behind that.  But the fact that they render themselves powerless  - maybe it works for some but that puts them in group think- that to me should be a sign.  You should not need an outside force or group think to save you.

Edited Wednesday at 06:48 AM by Inliytened1

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

You should not need an outside force or group think to save you.

Desperate people need desperate measures.

An addict is not in any position to do serious philosophical work. They just need rescuing from their inner demons. This is good and proper, but it is not the advanced work we do here.

This is the difference between therapy and philosophy. There is nothing wrong with therapy but it is not philosophy.

Edited Wednesday at 06:52 AM by Leo Gura

[Inliytened1]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

Desperate people need desperate measures.

An addict is not in any position to do serious philosophical work. They just need rescuing from their inner demons.

Not necessarily.  Wasn't Alan Watts an alcoholic.. 

Edited Wednesday at 06:52 AM by Inliytened1

[Malkom]

I've been there. I'll put it this way. Everything depends on your personality and the strength of your spirit.
For example, no one will convince me of any power independent of me. It's simply impossible. I am my own Authority. If anyone has any doubts, I will destroy them. Ahahahaha

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Not necessarily.  Wasn't Alan Watts an alcoholic.. 

He probably became one later in life. People can have their downfalls.

There are also functional alcoholics.

Edited Wednesday at 06:54 AM by Leo Gura

[Malkom]

It's a good thing I haven't had a drink in years. Alcohol only makes depression worse. Plus, you don't face reality, which means you're not working on yourself. If you want to learn how to make sculptures, sculpt them; if you want to speak well, speak. Alcohol is an escape and fantasies with bravado.
As for a Higher Power, there must be Faith. It's a matter of Trust in Life, it's fearlessness, it's not skepticism, it's not about a naive, childish perception. Just Faith, that's all. In what? Not in what. Just Faith.

[Inliytened1]

18 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

He probably became one later in life. People can have their downfalls.

There are also functional alcoholics.

It doesn't discriminate. I've dealt with addiction and yes it is easier to overcome the more self aware you are but it can still pull you into the darkness.  

[James123]

48 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No. It is a group for dysfunction people who can barely keep their shit together.

Such people are clueless about God. They are too psychologically broken to do serious existential work.

They are useful in the sense that if you are a dysfunctional addict then these groups can help you reform your ways, so you stop being a total degenerate. And then there is a chance that you can do some serious spiritual work.

Isn't that believing God, not actually believing, completely knowing that from bottom to heart, God is only thing that is real,

Therefore, completely giving back to It, including body and mind?

[Inliytened1]

14 minutes ago, James123 said:

Isn't that believing God, not actually believing, completely knowing that from bottom to heart, God is only thing that is real,

Therefore, completely giving back to It, including body and mind?

The people in these meetings completey give themselves over to a higher power but that's only because they have lost all self control in their lives.  It has nothing to do with God or whether God exists.   They have no self control so they are turning all self control over to a higher power.  When really they are turning it over to their sponsor or themselves. 

[James123]

4 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

The people in these meetings completey give themselves over to a higher power but that's only because they have lost all self control in their lives.  It has nothing to do with God or whether God exists.   They have no self control so they are turning all self control over to a higher power.  When really they are turning it over to their sponsor or themselves. 

That's actually what happen to me. Higher power, Self, God, Allah is all the same. 

All point is knowing that being on control impossible.

[Malkom]

AA won't help you unless you PERSONALLY want to change your situation. That should be the main message in AA.

[Inliytened1]

6 minutes ago, James123 said:

That's actually what happen to me. Higher power, Self, God, Allah is all the same. 

All point is knowing that being on control impossible.

Well that brings in the philosophical question of free will.  If you don't believe free will exists then I think you go too far.  But there is some Truth to that.  I think we do have free will.  Addiction can be physical and psychological.  The body can want something but you have free will to fight against it.  The mind can want something but you have free will to decide against it.  If you forfeit all free will then you are but the arm of God. Nothing wrong with that either but I do believe there is still a choice although sometimes you have to dig deep.

Edited Wednesday at 07:44 AM by Inliytened1

[Leo Gura]

37 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

It doesn't discriminate. I've dealt with addiction and yes it is easier to overcome the more self aware you are but it can still pull you into the darkness.  

Sure. I agree.

[Inliytened1]

8 minutes ago, Malkom said:

AA won't help you unless you PERSONALLY want to change your situation. That should be the main message in AA.

In which case do you really  need it?

[James123]

12 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Well that brings in the philosophical question of free will.  If you don't believe free will exists then I think you go too far.  But there is some Truth to that.  I think we do have free will.  Addiction can be physical and psychological.  The body can want something but you have free will to fight against it.  The mind can want something but you have free will to decide against it.  If you forfeit all free will then you are but the arm of God. Nothing wrong with that either but I do believe there is still a choice although sometimes you have to dig deep.

You can see that analyzing birth and death, actually there is no free will whatsoever.