Is meditation actually detrimental to regular people?

[Wiz]

I'm not an experienced meditator. But I've had some interesting experiences, not just from meditation but also contemplating a lot about spiritual stuff, nature of consciousness, non-duality, and learning about spirituality in general (a lot from Leo's channel actually). And there is something that concerns me about meditation and, I guess, is partly a reason why I have had difficulty establishing a consistent meditation habit.

We often hear that meditation can help quiet the mind and make us more present. At first, it seems something that would be desirable, especially for people with mental health issues. But upon thinking more deeply about this, is that really something we want as regular people? What I'm worried abut is that meditation over time may quiet my mind to the point that I'm not really able to think about stuff. What I mean is that my default mode would be more of an observer than someone engaged with life.

When we meditate, we are training our mind to recognize thinking and observe it without judgment. When, you don't actively engage with thoughts, they usually quickly disappear from the consciousness. But I don't know, maybe advanced meditators are able to develop a thought while still being fully aware the whole time of their thinking so that they do not become "lost in thoughts". But I'm not sure if I would want to train my brain to operate like this. To me, it seems it would make thinking more difficult due to increased cognitive load. And what if you train your mind in this manner for 1 year, 5 years, 10 years? Due to neuroplasticity, the brain would change. But what if that change results in a state where you're not as creative; you're not bothered to solve your problems, etc. When I meditated previously, I had reached a state (again, not entirely from meditation) where all I wanted to do was to meditate and just sort of bask in awareness as they say. I guess there is nothing wrong with that, but in an extremely competitive modern environment it's not really helpful unless you want to become a monk or something.

Also, there is a lot of evidence that meditation helps with anxiety and depression. To me, it seems that these benefits come from an effect of meditaion where the mind is conditioned to be less active. You lessen the activity of the whole brain, just like some drugs for anxiety reduce the firing of neurons to calm the brain. At first, it would seem that it's a good thing. But I'm starting to wonder, is it actually a good thing for everyone? I mean, there is a reason why anxiety and depression exist. Your body and mind tell you that something is not right, something needs to change. And yes, I know that sometimes the anxiety and depression might be irrational. They might be detrimental, and for a lot of people they are obsessive, and your mind is often over-exaggerating stuff. But in general, I think these systems exist to benefit humans and serve as a signal to seek change, not to make them suffer.

What really made me wonder about this stuff was when I started studying Buddhism a little bit. One of the goals in Buddhism is to extinguish all suffering by breaking attachment. But that is a scary thought with profound implications. That really fucked with my mind and made me seriously question whether meditation should be pursued by someone who is not on the path to become enlightened as it was traditionally intended.

So, have I got this wrong? What are your thoughts on this? How has your cognitive abilities changed after years of meditation? What about motivation, ambition, passion, and drive to achieve things in life?

Are there any books, videos that address this particular concern?

[gettoefl]

My take is, you need a good idea of the goal. Pre meditation, you have one thought system. When you begin, you have 2 running simultaneously and concurrently. Most thoughts are egoic and some thoughts reflect truth. Post meditation, you have rewired yourself to have one thought system again, the right one. This is the default and is liberation. This thought system paves the way for a smooth exit out of here. Namely drop the body and be what you always are.

Meditation is good since it expedites this. Some may not be willing while others may give it a go and succeed. For me I just have to focus on me.

[Elliott]

2 hours ago, Wiz said:

I'm not an experienced meditator. But I've had some interesting experiences, not just from meditation but also contemplating a lot about spiritual stuff, nature of consciousness, non-duality, and learning about spirituality in general (a lot from Leo's channel actually). And there is something that concerns me about meditation and, I guess, is partly a reason why I have had difficulty establishing a consistent meditation habit.

"Difficulty", trying to force yourself to meditate can cause problems, feeling guilty or anxious about needing to meditate has the opposite of the desired result. Perhaps you're not in a good way to meditate much.

Quote

We often hear that meditation can help quiet the mind and make us more present. At first, it seems something that would be desirable, especially for people with mental health issues. But upon thinking more deeply about this, is that really something we want as regular people? What I'm worried abut is that meditation over time may quiet my mind to the point that I'm not really able to think about stuff. What I mean is that my default mode would be more of an observer than someone engaged with life.

When we meditate, we are training our mind to recognize thinking and observe it without judgment. When, you don't actively engage with thoughts, they usually quickly disappear from the consciousness. But I don't know, maybe advanced meditators are able to develop a thought while still being fully aware the whole time of their thinking so that they do not become "lost in thoughts". But I'm not sure if I would want to train my brain to operate like this. To me, it seems it would make thinking more difficult due to increased cognitive load. And what if you train your mind in this manner for 1 year, 5 years, 10 years? Due to neuroplasticity, the brain would change. But what if that change results in a state where you're not as creative; you're not bothered to solve your problems, etc. When I meditated previously, I had reached a state (again, not entirely from meditation) where all I wanted to do was to meditate and just sort of bask in awareness as they say. I guess there is nothing wrong with that, but in an extremely competitive modern environment it's not really helpful unless you want to become a monk or something.

Thoughts disappear more quickly if you regularly meditate, you'll notice how long your thoughts regularly stick around and it's often surprisingly long, you likely operate for years or your entire life with 'subconscious' thoughts replaying.

Quote

Also, there is a lot of evidence that meditation helps with anxiety and depression. To me, it seems that these benefits come from an effect of meditaion where the mind is conditioned to be less active. You lessen the activity of the whole brain, just like some drugs for anxiety reduce the firing of neurons to calm the brain. At first, it would seem that it's a good thing. But I'm starting to wonder, is it actually a good thing for everyone? I mean, there is a reason why anxiety and depression exist. Your body and mind tell you that something is not right, something needs to change. And yes, I know that sometimes the anxiety and depression might be irrational. They might be detrimental, and for a lot of people they are obsessive, and your mind is often over-exaggerating stuff. But in general, I think these systems exist to benefit humans and serve as a signal to seek change, not to make them suffer.

As long as people aren't faking resolve, and anxiety and depression is actually alleviated, given anxiety and depression are from 'negative' thoughts.

 

Quote

What really made me wonder about this stuff was when I started studying Buddhism a little bit. One of the goals in Buddhism is to extinguish all suffering by breaking attachment. But that is a scary thought with profound implications. That really fucked with my mind and made me seriously question whether meditation should be pursued by someone who is not on the path to become enlightened as it was traditionally intended.

So, have I got this wrong? What are your thoughts on this? How has your cognitive abilities changed after years of meditation? What about motivation, ambition, passion, and drive to achieve things in life?

Are there any books, videos that address this particular concern?

I don't think it's really to "extinguish all suffering" that would just be aversion. Meditation helps me be more focused and clear minded, calm and peaceful but in a productive way, not a lazy way. I enjoy meditation, it's like a walk through a park or watching a sunset.

 

 

You will absolutely probably have life difficulties getting into this stuff. You're talking about something that will deprogram you, that's painful, confusing, emotional, and hectic.

Edited August 25 by Elliott

[theleelajoker]

4 hours ago, Wiz said:

So, have I got this wrong? What are your thoughts on this? How has your cognitive abilities changed after years of meditation? What about motivation, ambition, passion, and drive to achieve things in life?

Are there any books, videos that address this particular concern?

I can see some of the effects you describe. It's not black and white IME. 

I had meditation retreats I came back from and I was full of life, joy, lightness and couldn't wait to do stuff back in "reality"

But I also had times when I came back and had a hard time giving a fuck about life.

So, depends on many variables. Phase of life, circumstances, environment, etc

Edited August 25 by theleelajoker

[inFlow]

4 hours ago, Wiz said:

What I'm worried abut is that meditation over time may quiet my mind to the point that I'm not really able to think about stuff.

You are concerned about the survival of your own ego. You dont want to change.
 

4 hours ago, Wiz said:

But I'm not sure if I would want to train my brain to operate like this.

This is just your ideas of what it FINNALY would become. Which is fasle.

 

5 hours ago, Wiz said:

To me, it seems that these benefits come from an effect of meditaion where the mind is conditioned to be less active.

No. Your identity changes to your True nature, the true Self and it cannot have anxiety, because he itself is anxiety.

 

5 hours ago, Wiz said:

What really made me wonder about this stuff was when I started studying Buddhism a little bit. One of the goals in Buddhism is to extinguish all suffering by breaking attachment. But that is a scary thought with profound implications.

It is not. You can have/do anything, but you do it in a non-attachment way.

 

5 hours ago, Wiz said:

So, have I got this wrong?

Yes. You have no idea what it ACTUALLY is. I've been there where you are at right now. I can see you have no idea or clue what it is just have vague ideas and concepts. It's okay to be where you are and you should not feel bad about it, but you can either go deeper or just close yourself off. You choose.

 

5 hours ago, Wiz said:

How has your cognitive abilities changed after years of meditation?

I only feel bad I didn't started to it earlier. Everything changes, you can see so much more, the depth of perception of situations is completely different. You can read other people just by looking at how they walk and carry themselves. I don't want to go deep on explaining, but you have no idea what is possible. Imagine being on psychedelics, but being sober ALL DAY, from the moment you wake up to the moment you fall asleep.

[theleelajoker]

35 minutes ago, inFlow said:

 Everything changes, you can see so much more, the depth of perception of situations is completely different. You can read other people just by looking at how they walk and carry themselves. I don't want to go deep on explaining, but you have no idea what is possible. Imagine being on psychedelics, but being sober ALL DAY, from the moment you wake up to the moment you fall asleep.

 I agree on the depth. I agree on a different filter of perception. But go deep enough, what do you actually see? You see others, independent beings? 

I see nothing but reflections and appearances. 

[inFlow]

@theleelajoker just myself in other forms.

[Sugarcoat]

You are onto something. I almost wanted to write a post about how enlightenment can lead closer to a vegetative state. I have found myself to almost be in one. So I struggle to reply here. I’ll just leave it at that 

[Ishanga]

@Wiz No...

Meditation is too general a word, it really doesn't mean anything other than sitting cross legged with eyes closed but that can be called sleep too..

Everything is according to needs and wants and levels of Expertise... If all You want is peace then do a certain sort of practice, if You want more clarity another sort of practice, but if You want to go all the way, it means a totally different thing than sitting eyes closed and cross legged for 20min a day..

But generally it is good for Us to be more silent of mind, calmer in emotion and healthy body wise which practices can for sure help with, a mentor is needed to help guide ppl, when they go solo too much it messes things up big time...

[theleelajoker]

4 hours ago, inFlow said:

@theleelajoker just myself in other forms.

@inFlow

Yeah. 

Hi you! Ahh.. me...uhm..us? 

 

[Cathy92506]

11 hours ago, Wiz said:

I'm not an experienced meditator. But I've had some interesting experiences, not just from meditation but also contemplating a lot about spiritual stuff, nature of consciousness, non-duality, and learning about spirituality in general (a lot from Leo's channel actually). And there is something that concerns me about meditation and, I guess, is partly a reason why I have had difficulty establishing a consistent meditation habit.

We often hear that meditation can help quiet the mind and make us more present. At first, it seems something that would be desirable, especially for people with mental health issues. But upon thinking more deeply about this, is that really something we want as regular people? What I'm worried abut is that meditation over time may quiet my mind to the point that I'm not really able to think about stuff. What I mean is that my default mode would be more of an observer than someone engaged with life.

When we meditate, we are training our mind to recognize thinking and observe it without judgment. When, you don't actively engage with thoughts, they usually quickly disappear from the consciousness. But I don't know, maybe advanced meditators are able to develop a thought while still being fully aware the whole time of their thinking so that they do not become "lost in thoughts". But I'm not sure if I would want to train my brain to operate like this. To me, it seems it would make thinking more difficult due to increased cognitive load. And what if you train your mind in this manner for 1 year, 5 years, 10 years? Due to neuroplasticity, the brain would change. But what if that change results in a state where you're not as creative; you're not bothered to solve your problems, etc. When I meditated previously, I had reached a state (again, not entirely from meditation) where all I wanted to do was to meditate and just sort of bask in awareness as they say. I guess there is nothing wrong with that, but in an extremely competitive modern environment it's not really helpful unless you want to become a monk or something.

Also, there is a lot of evidence that meditation helps with anxiety and depression. To me, it seems that these benefits come from an effect of meditaion where the mind is conditioned to be less active. You lessen the activity of the whole brain, just like some drugs for anxiety reduce the firing of neurons to calm the brain. At first, it would seem that it's a good thing. But I'm starting to wonder, is it actually a good thing for everyone? I mean, there is a reason why anxiety and depression exist. Your body and mind tell you that something is not right, something needs to change. And yes, I know that sometimes the anxiety and depression might be irrational. They might be detrimental, and for a lot of people they are obsessive, and your mind is often over-exaggerating stuff. But in general, I think these systems exist to benefit humans and serve as a signal to seek change, not to make them suffer.

What really made me wonder about this stuff was when I started studying Buddhism a little bit. One of the goals in Buddhism is to extinguish all suffering by breaking attachment. But that is a scary thought with profound implications. That really fucked with my mind and made me seriously question whether meditation should be pursued by someone who is not on the path to become enlightened as it was traditionally intended.

So, have I got this wrong? What are your thoughts on this? How has your cognitive abilities changed after years of meditation? What about motivation, ambition, passion, and drive to achieve things in life?

Are there any books, videos that address this particular concern?

Is it possible that your questions have has legitimate concerns, but they're based on a misunderstanding of what healthy meditation practice looks like.
Real meditation develops clarity and presence, not detachment from life. 

[inFlow]

@theleelajoker Just It. 🤍🕉

[inFlow]

@Sugarcoat being too much into spirituality you are dieing as a human being. Solitude is nothing else but salvation from all the shit that is around. Once you reach a high enough level you start to feel other peoples karma just by being around and it affects you to a degree. And you get sick of it and tend to be alone. No wonder REAL enlightened beings are living in solitude. This is a double edge sword. 

[Sugarcoat]

1 minute ago, inFlow said:

@Sugarcoat being too much into spirituality you are dieing as a human being. Solitude is nothing else but salvation from all the shit that is around. Once you reach a high enough level you start to feel other peoples karma just by being around and it affects you to a degree. And you get sick of it and tend to be alone. No wonder REAL enlightened beings are living in solitude. This is a double edge sword. 

True dying as a human is dissolving the self. It’s the ultimate death apart from physical death. 

[theleelajoker]

42 minutes ago, inFlow said:

@theleelajoker Just It. 🤍🕉

@inFlowWhen did you become aware of "it" and started to see yourself in others?

For me (my character, whatever, let's keep it simple with "me" and "you") it was this year. 

But the funny thing is, suddenly other people I have known for a long time start to talk to me about "it" like they have always known and now I'm feel like the stupid one for not seeing it before. Real interesting this reflection-stuff and interconnections.

Of course there have always been hints, but it's like reading a book for the first or second time. First time you see the hints, but not the significance, the veiled meaning. Second time reading you're like "ahhh here it's hinted so clearly, now everything connects, so well done"

39 minutes ago, inFlow said:

@Sugarcoat being too much into spirituality you are dieing as a human being. Solitude is nothing else but salvation from all the shit that is around. Once you reach a high enough level you start to feel other peoples karma just by being around and it affects you to a degree. And you get sick of it and tend to be alone. No wonder REAL enlightened beings are living in solitude. This is a double edge sword. 

This is interesting because I get along better with people around me. Less time to think about this experience. More interaction, more distraction. And their Karma is a reflection of my Karma, so....feels like a circle. 

[Wiz]

Thanks everyone who contributed to this thread. I did not expect so many answers, especially considering I'm a new user here.

[Leo Gura]

Of course the point of true spirituality is to obstruct your survival.

Spirituality makes survival harder. Yes, spirituality makes you not care about living or dying. That is the point.

Humans are survival zombies. Most of the stuff humans do they would not do if they were conscious, including having children, starting businesses, making money, and making art.

You are like Elon Musk asking, "But if I do meditation then why would I need to go to Mars?" The answer is: your idea of going to Mars is stupid. You just don't realize it yet. "But I really need to go to Mars!" Yes, you are stupid enough that perhaps only death can cure you.

The point of meditation is that nothing in life matters but meditation because everything else is a silly dream.

Do normies need meditation? No. It won't work anyway because it is being done too shallowly.

Edited August 26 by Leo Gura

[Wiz]

13 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

You are onto something. I almost wanted to write a post about how enlightenment can lead closer to a vegetative state. I have found myself to almost be in one. So I struggle to reply here. I’ll just leave it at that 

Please do make a post about it. I think this is under-discussed topic. Even asking these sort of questions is problematic because there is a bias involed. It's analogues to asking a marathon runner if running is bad for your knees. Well, it depends because the runners who are able to run marathons either don't have fucked up knees, or they do but push through the pain because they associate their identity with this activity so much.

[Leo Gura]

@Wiz Look at this way: Meditation is designed to kill you. If you like that idea, that's the reason to meditate. Otherwise carry on with your monkey games.

Meditation is for those who are sick of playing games.

Edited August 26 by Leo Gura

[Wiz]

@Leo Gura Hi Leo! Very cool that you responded. I've been watching your channel for a long time, and you had a profound impact on me. Just wanted to say that first.

But what are you suggesting then? We should just become all enlightened, sit somewhere in a cave on a mountain and just die while being blissed out? I don't think the purpose of life is to become enlightened because, like you say, enlightnenment is problem for survival, the society would simple collapse, wouldn't it? 

I was making this post to get some clarity on meditation for regular people who just want to improve their life and are not pursuing spirituality seriously, like a lot of you guys here.