Debunking Solipsism

[Xonas Pitfall]

@Razard86

4 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

Oh I like this statement you think when his human life ended he remained lost in delusion? 

Most likely! 

[Inliytened1]

5 minutes ago, Xonas Pitfall said:

@Inliytened1

But there would be. It's the logic of God and (non)duality.

For example, length only occurs if there is a separation between two points so that you can measure from one object to another. Otherwise, you just get infinity in all directions, which is essentially infinite length. Now, sure, can you create alternative realities where lengths are measured in centimeters, millimeters, elephant stomps, golf carts, alien ⠋cryptic ⠋⣁⡞⠁language, etc.? Yes, of course, but the universal principle of needing two separate points to define length remains, no matter which reality you go to.

The same applies here. You can imagine infinite absolutes and countless more infinities, but the fundamental principle remains: for a separation to occur, there must be a separate 'boundary' or something 'separating' the difference.

But why do you assume that this logic has to apply to infinity? After all didn't infinity first have to create that logic?? So why is it limited to that?

By your logic God could never have created itself because this would defy "logic".  

[Razard86]

50 minutes ago, Xonas Pitfall said:

@Razard86

Most likely! 

I've done research on this (Researching NDE's) and the only delusion I've found people can get lost in when their human vessel dies is they can stay as individuated parts of Consciousness that think and act like their human selves and even create a body that is both physical and non-physical and deny that they are God in totality and just keep telling themselves they are only a part. Blew my mind when I found this out. So you can have relatives who die and become God again but deny it and stay and experience themselves as something less than.

[Breakingthewall]

5 hours ago, Xonas Pitfall said:

@Razard86

Most likely! 

According solipsism Einstein never existed, it's only an idea in your mind that you are creating to make this dream more real. If he have existed, he would be "other". Then saying that maybe he awaked is pointless because it would imply another reality separate from yours

Edited yesterday at 06:17 AM by Breakingthewall

[Xonas Pitfall]

3 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

According solipsism Einstein never existed, it's only an idea in your mind that you are creating to make this dream more real. If he have existed, he would be "other". Then saying that maybe he awaked is pointless because it would imply another reality separate from yours

Hahahahahaha ❤❤❤

[Xonas Pitfall]

9 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

But why do you assume that this logic has to apply to infinity? After all didn't infinity first have to create that logic?? So why is it limited to that?

By your logic God could never have created itself because this would defy "logic".  

@Inliytened1 No, that's not what I mean. The logic I'm referring to is tautological, not the typical reasoning used in science.

A tautology is a statement that is true by definition or by its logical structure, meaning that it’s true in all possible scenarios because of the way it's phrased. It doesn't need to rely on outside evidence or "other"  observations to be verified. It's a statement where the truth is built into the language itself.

For example:

"A blue tree is a blue tree."

This is tautological because, no matter what, it’s always true. The subject (a blue tree) and the predicate (is a blue tree) are exactly the same thing. There’s no new information being added, and no need for external verification. The truth is contained entirely within the logic of the statement. It’s true by definition, not by reference to any outside reality.

Why tautologies are self-evident:

They follow a structure where one part of the statement essentially repeats or reinforces the other part, leaving no room for contradiction or alternative possibilities. In logical terms, a tautology is true in every possible situation because it can't logically be false.

"All bachelors are unmarried men." (It’s true by definition because being unmarried is part of the concept of a bachelor.)

This is how one can come to understand God: by asking, What is God? What does being God imply? What are the "properties" of God, one could say?

• God is All.
• "All" must include both the finite and the infinite.
• Therefore, God must encompass everything, as God is infinite.
• God must have always existed, since to be infinite is to be ever-present in all things, everywhere, at all times.
• By the nature of being All, God cannot be bound by time, space, or any limitations. God defines time, space, or any limitations.
• If God is infinite, then God is both transcendent (beyond the physical realm) and immanent (present within everything).
• God would also be unchanging, as anything that changes cannot be infinite; it would be limited by time or space.
• Since God is the source of everything, all things would inherently have some connection to God, whether consciously recognized or not.
• God must be eternal, as eternity is a property of infinity; something that is infinite cannot cease to exist.

All of these are simply implications of "infinity."

For example, if I say, "Jeremiah has all pink nails," that implies her thumb, pointer, middle, ring, and pinkie nails on both hands are pink.
Similarly, if I say, "God is infinite," that implies a range of qualities: Oneness, Solipsism, Truth, Love, Omnipotence, Everpresence, and so on.

As mentioned, one of the properties of God is Omnipotence and Everpresence. God is the source of distinctions, finitude, and limitations. By pure logic, this means that any limitation or boundary that exists must have been created by God.

Quote

The same applies here. You can imagine infinite absolutes and countless more infinities, but the fundamental principle remains: for a separation to occur, there must be a separate 'boundary' or something 'separating' the difference. And the key question is: what is that space made of? Vacuum? How did that appear? Intergalactic alien fluid? Who created that, and what's the substance of it? How did that come to be? If you say God made it, then it's God, God separating Himself into gods.

This reasoning follows a type of logic more akin to "I am, therefore I am", a self-evident, self-determined truth, rather than typical human rationality. I believe Chris Langan makes a good point in this regard here:

Edited yesterday at 10:17 AM by Xonas Pitfall

[Breakingthewall]

@Xonas Pitfall the lagnans point is interesting, but there is another possibility, the only possible if you contemplate it:  

In the absence of limits, any movement will unleash a wave of infinite cause and effect. Therefore, any event, change, or relationship will have infinite causality. You can unfold the events that led to it without end, which means you could claim that the cause of that movement is all of infinite reality. You could say that God is creating it, so to speak. But this doesn't mean that this infinite cause will produce a predetermined effect, since the range of possibilities and subsequent effects is unlimited and therefore indeterminate.

The openness to any existing reality is absolute, and therefore it is absolutely impossible to foresee where its future will lead. An infinitesimal change results in an infinite deviation. This is the essence of reality: openness or the absence of limits in all directions.

You can see this in Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle: it’s impossible to know both the position and the momentum of a quantum particle at the same time. This is not due to a lack of measurement tools; it is an intrinsic property of reality.

The uncertainty principle shows that there is no absolute fixity of states. You cannot simultaneously know the position and momentum of a particle because they are not absolutely defined at the same time. This means that reality is not completely determined at any point: there is always openness, there is always possibility.

This implies that reality is neither closed nor fixed. There is no "ultimate framework" from which you can completely reduce reality to deterministic relations. That is, reality has no absolute epistemic limit. And this openness is not only of knowledge, but ontological: reality itself is structured as open possibility.

Edited 23 hours ago by Breakingthewall

[Xonas Pitfall]

@Breakingthewall

Sure, but I'm still not quite sure what's being said here. The original question or problem was about multiple gods, infinity, and solipsism.

21 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

In the absence of limits, any movement will unleash a wave of infinite cause and effect. Therefore, any event, change, or relationship will have infinite causality. The openness to any existing reality is absolute, and therefore it is absolutely impossible to foresee where its future will lead.

By defining God as infinity, you’re essentially saying that all is infinity. So, unless you're claiming there’s something “outside” of this infinity that is putting a limit on it, then nothing novel is being added.

God is still infinity, and all is God, Oneness, Solipsism.

Yes, it’s infinite in nature and ever-unfolding, but still, nothing exists outside of it, which was my original point. Therefore, you cannot claim there are infinite absolutes "outside" of God, only within or as it, expressing itself infinitely. Hopefully, that makes sense? I am not denying that infinity has infinite unfoldings and expressions, but they are still just that: infinity expressing itself. It’s not necessarily some other substrate or origin.

[Leo Gura]

I recommend you first have the realization that God is solipsism, and then try to go beyond that and try to break out of solipsism if you can.

This is not about having an answer. This is about going on an exploration. Getting God requires exploring it from various angles. You're not going to get it all in one hit. You'll need multiple hits anyways. So don't get hung up on having one final answer, rather you will have a variety of awakenings. Your attitude should be one of open-ended exploration. Try various things and see what happens. Explore solipsism, explore its opposite, and just see where you naturally end up. Don't try to force a single conclusion upon reality. You always want to be open to radical new consciousness -- whatever that might be.

Edited 22 hours ago by Leo Gura

[theleelajoker]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I recommend you first have the realization that God is solipsism, and then try to go beyond that and try to break out of solipsism if you can.

This is not about having an answer. This is about going on an exploration. Getting God requires exploring it from various angles. You're not going to get it all in one hit. You'll need multiple hits anyways. So don't get hung up on having one final answer, rather you will have a variety of awakenings. Your attitude should be one of open-ended exploration. Try various things and see what happens. Explore solipsism, explore its opposite, and just see where you naturally end up. Don't try to force a single conclusion upon reality. You always want to be open to radical new consciousness -- whatever that might be.

IMO on of your best posts in recent times. 

Especially the "open end exploration" and this part 

Don't try to force a single conclusion upon reality. You always want to be open to radical new consciousness -- whatever that might be.

I remember Buddha saying one of the factors of enlightenment is " investigation of Dhamma" - so it's a mystery and will remain one. 

But this also means there is no final teaching, no final "God is this or that", which also means that we could stop about half the discussion here in this forum because it could be or become something radical new every moment, right?

[OBEler]

@Leo Gura So you remain open to the possibility that, within your imagined field, there could emerge beings who possess their own conscious field like you—just beyond your reality, yet synchronized with it by God's will?

 

@Xonas Pitfall 

 

[Xonas Pitfall]

@Leo Gura

Quote

This is not about having an answer. This is about going on an exploration. Getting God requires exploring it from various angles.

I don’t necessarily disagree, but I do feel that what we’re aiming for here is to understand the 'truth.' There are definitely things that are more or less "true", for example, Christianity vs. atheism, atheism vs. non-duality, etc. Some pointers to reality are clearer or more accurate, purer than others. When someone is giving teachings and making strong, bold statements, it feels a bit like a cop-out to then say, 'Please remain open...'

Quote

God is a singular mind that creates a reality around itself because it has no one to define reality for it. Lack of other is what makes God God.

All non-God notions of reality assume an other which limits reality.

The key to full God-Realization is realizing that other is imagined by you. If other is entirely imaginary then your mind has absolute power. Then you are truly God.

Quote

No, I am talking about the possibility of different Gods which have no contact with each other.

It is the notion of multiple Absolute Minds.

Imagine infinite different Absolutes.

This is a twisted notion.

If, from the start, it had been said, 'I am unsure what the answer is or what other possibilities exist; test it for yourself, this is about going on an exploration,' then there would be no issue with that. But this started with very bold, strong statements, hence why I was bringing up contradictions.

Leo often says things like, 'No one is awake more than I am. No one on this forum is awake.' These are pretty bold statements that aren’t very open-ended or exploratory 😅 One of the main things that attracts Leo (and many of us) is finding 'the answers.' That’s one of the main things he talks about in his videos: understanding consciousness, revealing life's biggest questions. So, there’s definitely an aspect of seeking answers and truth, or as close to the total answer as possible. Suddenly shifting to, 'Oh, it's about openness and endless exploration,' after making bold statements with clear passion about revealing "the truth" doesn’t quite sit right.

Hope that makes sense!

Edited 18 hours ago by Xonas Pitfall

[Razard86]

I really wonder when people on this forum will realize that contemplation is not TRUTH. Can it be valuable? Sure. But if you really want truth you need to change your state of consciousness and allow consciousness to SHOW YOU (which it will if you have a true desire for it) what is true. Once you discover the truth, coming on the forums and reading threads of people trying to debunk something that is Absolutely True is such an eyesore. I mean it reeks of such intellectual dishonesty it's laughable and this is me being nice. 

1. You have only ever known your own mind. 

2. You have never had an experience outside of your mind.

3. Your own body and all its parts have always been housed within your own mind.

4. You can only confirm what is right before you, anything else is just a thought. This means when a person is not in front of you, they do not exist in your reality and you cannot confirm their existence until they either call you or stand before you

^^^All of this is so true you don't even need 5-MEO to confirm it.

The only parts you would need a Pyschedelic for would be to realize that everything is Imagination. If people were struggling with that part. THEN I would understand. Next we come to the fact that Reality is pure nothingness. If you discover that, then division becomes a total farce. There is no division PERIOD. All division is the ONLY ILLUSION, why? Because physicality is an illusion. In fact if you have a vivid enough dream you could experience physicality in that dream just as real as what you call real life. 

Then we have the Understanding that Reality is Infinite. If its Infinite that means its total and nothing can exist outside of it. If it has no outside, then Solipsism must be true. If it is nothing and cannot be divided then again Solipsism must be true. If you cannot confirm no matter how hard you try something outside of you, then again Solipsism must be true. Its very simple and straightforward. 

So why is it so tough to accept? Because the human psyche is designed to NOT LIKE THIS MESSAGE. It's specifically designed to RAGE against this message. This is how you know if you have really progressed Spiritually when you can accept that just because something makes you uncomfortable doesn't make it false.

Besides....you literally cannot falsify Solipsism, the only way to falsify Solipsism....is to look at your direct experience and say its false even though it is TRUE. Which means you falsify yourself. This all happens because all you have ever been...is experience. Your true identity is just Direct Experience. Experience is not what you are having....its what you are. And since you are experience...there is nothing that can exist outside of you. And to even confirm something were to exist outside of you....would be to confirm its existence as experience...which is what you are...thus proving again nothing can separate itself from you.

You are Reality, the entire thing. There is only ONE Reality and that is what you are. Your like a video game, the only video game that exists, looking for another Video Game. All you will find....if you try is just the same game. 

[OBEler]

@Razard86 how about multiple experiences. Experiences outside of me which I cannot experience. Just because I cannot experience them doesn't mean it cannot exist. It will never exist in my experience because then it's my experience I get that. But from a meta view there can be an experience outside my experience.

It's not that simple but on your first 4 points I think everyone here agrees and understands that.

Edited 17 hours ago by OBEler

[Xonas Pitfall]

@OBEler Exactly!

Of course, I'll continue my own psychedelic, spiritual, and god exploration, etc., and verify things on my own. But if there are people here confidently claiming they’ve discovered something truthful or alternative, it’s worthwhile to question and probe their logic. The idea of multiple infinite gods doesn’t really make sense if you’re claiming there's something 'outside' of God, like a different 'reality or substrate.' However, if what’s being claimed is that within infinity there are multiple absolutes, infinities, and variations, then of course, that makes sense logically, given what infinity is.

[Mmartinez28]

@OBEler hey, you gave me false information about how the following views  are primary insights these views Leo Gura never explicitly stated that they are primary insights. The only primary absolute insights are the many facets of awakening enlightenment video of Leo gura. These following views Leo Gura never presented as absolute insights in his the many facets of awakening enlightenment video. The only primary insights are the many facets of awakening enlightenment video and that’s it, not these following views. I watched the video the many facets of awakening enlightenment insights.

• consciousness zooms forever infinity 
• knob of consciousness spins forever 
• figments of imagination grow forever 
• Consciousness can do what it wants 
• consciousness expands forever
• physical universe expands forever 
   

Edited 15 hours ago by Mmartinez28

[OBEler]

@Mmartinez28 I don't understand what you mean.

He posted a video about primary insights in the many facets of awakening enlightenment video. Then after that he had some new profound awakenings with new primary insights. They are then not in the list of his old video.

Now you say his old video is the state of the art and he cannot have new primary insights after that? I don't understand you.

 

[Razard86]

2 hours ago, OBEler said:

@Razard86 how about multiple experiences. Experiences outside of me which I cannot experience. Just because I cannot experience them doesn't mean it cannot exist. It will never exist in my experience because then it's my experience I get that. But from a meta view there can be an experience outside my experience.

It's not that simple but on your first 4 points I think everyone here agrees and understands that.

You are imagining that....and since all there is, is imagination you are experiencing that BELIEF that there is some how an experience outside of you. But notice!!! You cannot confirm it!! If you cannot confirm it, then that is just an assumption, that is just belief and neither of that is true. TRUTH and Leo so greatly put it= What is. What is not, is fantasy. You really do not understand that you are God. As such....NOTHING can be outside of you. If you were a human then sure, something can exist outside of you. The moment you tell me something can exist outside of you that immediately lets me know that you think you are a human or some part of God, instead of the WHOLE THING. You are the WHOLE THING mister!!!

YOU CREATED ME. YOU CREATED ACTUALIZED.ORG and then you delude yourself that you didn't do any of these things. 

[Inliytened1]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I recommend you first have the realization that God is solipsism, and then try to go beyond that and try to break out of solipsism if you can.

This is not about having an answer. This is about going on an exploration. Getting God requires exploring it from various angles. You're not going to get it all in one hit. You'll need multiple hits anyways. So don't get hung up on having one final answer, rather you will have a variety of awakenings. Your attitude should be one of open-ended exploration. Try various things and see what happens. Explore solipsism, explore its opposite, and just see where you naturally end up. Don't try to force a single conclusion upon reality. You always want to be open to radical new consciousness -- whatever that might be.

Yes agreed this is very true.  But I wouldn't even start with God is Solpsism because it's too far advanced.  Start with what the heck am I.  But to your point don't expect that you will ever have all the answers.   After all Infinity always has more.

[Razard86]

3 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Yes agreed this is very true.  But I wouldn't even start with God is Solpsism because it's too far advanced.  Start with what the heck am I.  But to your point don't expect that you will ever have all the answers.   After all Infinity always has more.

The most annoying thing to me is the Realization of Nothingness, is identical to the Realization of Infinity. Why in the hell do these humans keep thinking that they are human doing this work. Once you realize Nothingness...you realize that division is literally impossible so nothing can be outside of you. The most important thing that needs to be dropped is this belief that you are human. 

You are nothingness imagining that you are human, not the other way around. I swear majority of this forum has not realized nothingness. When I realized it, it hit me in the face so hard I realized division was impossible and that was the only illusion done.