Debunking Solipsism

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, metamember said:

Isn't it fair enough to assume that there is actually a real place called China

No.

You misunderstand what "real" means.

Real means whatever you imagine, and nothing otherwise. That's what God is.

God is the ability to imagiine any kind of reality. That means, if you aren't imagining it, it has no reality.

China is real to you only because you imagine it is. If you stop imagining that China is real, it will stop being real.

This work has nothing to do with assumptions. You need to become directly conscious what "real" is.

I am not speaking from assumptions. I am speaking from 100% absolute consciousness of reality. I became so conscious that I understand I imagine China.

This work is not about theorizing or guessing.

Edited Saturday at 04:52 PM by Leo Gura

[Oppositionless]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Meeksauce The flaw in your logic is that for God to be omniscient and omnipotent it must have absolute sovereignty of mind. This is only achieved by having no other.

If others exist, they automatically break absolute sovereignty of mind, which means God can't exist.

What is God? God is the absolute ability to imagine anything without limit. This is only possible if it is the sole mind. As soon as you have more than one mind, power is divided between them. You can only have infinite imagination if no other entity exists to impinge upon you. Other minds would impinge upon your mind, thereby making you not-God.

As soon as God imagine another mind beyond itself, and takes that seriously, God stops being God.

You are welcome to imagine other minds, but then you aren't God. That's the price you pay if you want company. Or you can be God all alone. Up to you.

 

 

Is Mind just the stream of consciousness ? When you say imagination I'm interpreting that is something more fundamental than this stream of consciousness . If so then there could be multiple streams but only one "mind."

[Oppositionless]

On 8/1/2025 at 7:07 AM, Davino said:

There's just One Consciousness and it's living through us all

But that's not solipsism, that's nonduality ....

 

I don't understand how anyone could believe in solipsism. Even if they proved it, the body mind would have to reject it.

Edited Saturday at 07:00 PM by Oppositionless

[yetineti]

I don’t believe in solipsism; I recognize it.

[Inliytened1]

On 7/31/2025 at 3:15 PM, Meeksauce said:

I would like to present a series of premises which is logically coherent and tautologically throws a wrench in Leo's framework of absolute infinity.

1. God is infinite, unlimited, containing all possibilities, nothing is impossible for it
2. Therefore, other beings could technically have consciousness because experiencing the life of every being on earth is contained within the possibility space of infinity
3. You can't experience every being in the universe because infinity takes too long. You can go on forever in different bodies, but never reach the end of the full chain.
4. BUT, since God is everything possible at once, only from its POV can it experience every being. This means every being has to be experienced by something.
5. Therefore, there have to be an infinite number of self isolated "dreamers" to account for the totality of existence. I don't mean one consciousness per being, I mean one consciousness per indefinite beings, but an infinite amount of these. Similar to Leo's Infinity of Gods video. Really try to wrap your mind around this part.

You might say no you PROVED solipsism since every dreamer is self contained in their chain of being and may never come into contact with another dreamer, but to that I say no, this still proves other minds have to exist in order to fill the necessary quota of absolute infinity. The main assumption this line of reasoning makes that I could debate on is that infinity must actualize all possible experiences, not just dream them from one POV. But if you say that experience is dreamed from one POV, then it can't be absolutely infinite, can it?

Oneness is Absolute.  The whole idea of you being one being is actually part of the illusion.  You're really just Consciousness exploring itself.  You're no more the self then you are other.  You are currently all Beings right now.  That's how Infinity closes the loop

  Stop thinking in a linear fashion like you will experience every life. Infinity doesn't need that.  It just needs to create separation by inventing self and other. But in Truth there is only Consciousness itself the whole time.   

That is essentially what a dream is.  The Dreamer is irrelevant.   The dream is a bunch of separated beings but is actually one collective thing- Consciousness 

 

[Daniel Balan]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

No.

You misunderstand what "real" means.

Real means whatever you imagine, and nothing otherwise. That's what God is.

God is the ability to imagiine any kind of reality. That means, if you aren't imagining it, it has no reality.

China is real to you only because you imagine it is. If you stop imagining that China is real, it will stop being real.

This work has nothing to do with assumptions. You need to become directly conscious what "real" is.

I am not speaking from assumptions. I am speaking from 100% absolute consciousness of reality. I became so conscious that I understand I imagine China.

This work is not about theorizing or guessing.

What about Chernobyl? Most of Europe didn't even know that nuclear plant exists! Yet when it exploded, the people under the communist regime found out about the explosion weeks after it happened, by the time Moscow released statements of the mortal danger people living in Ukraine, Belarus and Romania were already dying and having their hair fall of their skull. 

If solipsism was true why the rural people were dying due to an explosion from a place they have never yet imagined or experienced?

Many people in the rural areas who didn't have access to television or radio only knew that something happened when their nails started falling off their hands! 

Edited Saturday at 09:35 PM by Daniel Balan

[Inliytened1]

8 minutes ago, Daniel Balan said:

What about Chernobyl? Most of Europe didn't even know that nuclear plant exists! Yet when it exploded, the people under the communist regime found out about the explosion weeks after it happened, by the time Moscow released statements of the mortal danger people living in Ukraine, Belarus and Romania were already dying and having their hair fall of their skull. 

If solipsism was true why they were dying due to an explosion from a place they have never imagined?

Many people in the rural areas who didn't have access to television or radio only knew that something happened when their nails started falling off their hands! 

You're missing it.  What had to happen fundamentally before Chernobyl could even exist?  We can also use existence and meaning simultaneously.   Did Chernobyl have any meaning before YOU actually gave it that?  Think about this deeply.   It starts with your consciousness.  To assume it existed beforehand or  outside of your own consciousness is precisely that- an assumption.   Become aware of that.  And even further, It's an assumption made none other than by yourself.  

 

Edited Saturday at 09:41 PM by Inliytened1

[Daniel Balan]

1 minute ago, Inliytened1 said:

You're missing it.  What had to happen fundamentally before Chernobyl could even exist? 

 

I have no clue

[Inliytened1]

8 minutes ago, Daniel Balan said:

I have no clue

The whole premise of Solipsism is that nothing exists outside of your own mind.  You had to bring it into existence first before it could have any meaning.  Now..this can't be disproven by science but the claim is that it can be proven by awakening.

Edited Saturday at 09:49 PM by Inliytened1

[Daniel Balan]

1 minute ago, Inliytened1 said:

The whole premise of Solipsism is that nothing exists outside of your own mind.  You had to bring it into existence first before it could have any meaning.  Now..this can't be disproven by science but it can be proven by awakening.

So when I will die you will stop existing? If my mind dies, you will just disappear? Will it be lights out for the whole universe when I die? I doubt it. 
If that would be the case, nothing would have existed before I was born. You are older than me, you existed before I was born. If solipsism was true everything I come into contact should be the same age as I am, because solipsism says I am the creator of everything. 

[Inliytened1]

3 minutes ago, Daniel Balan said:

So when I will die you will stop existing? If my mind dies, you will just disappear? Will it be lights out for the whole universe when I die? I doubt it. 
If that would be the case, nothing would have existed before I was born. You are older than me, you existed before I was born. If solipsism was true everything I come into contact should be the same age as I am, because solipsism says I am the creator of everything. 

I never existed in the first place other than within your consciousness.  The whole universe is currently being held within your consciousness.   That actually makes you sovereign over everything.   The illusion does everything it can to make this not the case. And it works well.  Hence reality

 

[Daniel Balan]

16 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

I never existed in the first place other than within your consciousness.  The whole universe is currently being held within your consciousness.   That actually makes you sovereign over everything.   The illusion does everything it can to make this not the case. And it works well.  Hence reality

 

I contemplate forever. Almost anything there is to contemplate, I contemplate. Solipsism is something I contemplate for like a year. Many things Leo says I contemplated, and I validated to be true for myself too. But Solipsism? I try my best to contemplate about it daily and for now, I can't connect the dots. From my direct experience I can't validate solipsism for myself.

From personal inquiry I came to the conclusion that I am not god. To me God is like giant mind and I am like a surveillance camera that goes out in the field to experience stuff for it. I came to the conclusion that everything is like an extension to God. I am like a keyboard, you are like a hand mouse, the nature is like a monitor, the animals are like headphones etc and together all combined, we create a PC (Which is God). That's what I came up while contemplating.

That is what is true from my direct experience. That God needs vehicles like humans and animals and plants to experience reality. We are like mushrooms that grow in the forest. But the forest is God's mind. 

Solipsism I couldn't validate through my direct experience. And I will never take psychedelics to help me with my contemplation. To me psychedelics are what create self deception and deceive one's ability to contemplate. From my POV psychedelics are a corruption to one's ability to genuinely contemplate.

Edited Saturday at 10:17 PM by Daniel Balan

[Inliytened1]

6 minutes ago, Daniel Balan said:

I contemplate forever. Almost anything there is to contemplate, I contemplate. Solipsism is something I contemplate for like a year. Many things Leo says I contemplated, and I validated to be true for myself too. But Solipsism? I try my best to contemplate about it daily and for now, I can't connect the dots. From my direct experience I can't validate solipsism for myself.

From personal inquiry I came to the conclusion that I am not god. To me God is like giant mind and I am like a surveillance camera that goes out in the field to experience stuff for it. I came to the conclusion that everything is like an extension to God. I am like a keyboard, you are like a hand mouse, the nature is like a monitor, the animals are like headphones etc and together all combined, we create a PC (Which is God). That's what I came up while contemplating.

That is what is true from my direct experience. That God needs vehicles like humans and animals and plants to experience reality. We are like mushrooms that grow in the forest. But the forest is God's mind. 

Solipsism I couldn't validate through my direct experience. And I will never take psychedelics to help me with my contemplation. To me psychedelics are what create self deception and deceive one's ability to contemplate. From my POV psychedelics are a corruption to one's ability to genuinely contemplate.

And thats perfect.  But don't equate the realization of Aloneness as God with psychedelics.   It can also be realized via meditation.  But your Truth is yours and yours alone.  It's funny we go back to true and false spirituality.   False spirituality would be me trying to convince you of Solipsism or any other worldview.   Your conclusions are your own.  I will say however that once you get into the worldview of reality being Consciousness things really open up.

[Xonas Pitfall]

6 hours ago, metamember said:

Do you get to experience all other (or any other) stories when you become conscious that you create all other stories? Or is it more of a story-less experience?

Yes! The challenge with asking that question is that it often leads to neglecting the deeper implications behind it. Imagine something you are (or were) deeply attached to: maybe your greatest love, your child, your family, your hands and body, your values, just pick something you're deeply connected to and need. When you ask the question, 'Okay, but do you get to experience all other stories?' you’re essentially asking to fully let go of your current attachments to experience a completely different reality. That’s why psychedelic trips are often more abstract and storyless, because you’re still trying to retain your human self while accessing higher truths. Plus, you’re removing your ego, so you start realizing the purity of truth more and aren’t as attracted to entering into another alternative ego.

However, you can still definitely find plenty of accounts where people have long trips and experience entirely different lives (stories), or experiences like salvia trips where people become inanimate objects, juice cups, or doorknobs. Some people have NDEs (Near-Death Experiences) and experience PTSD from losing 'the family lives they lived for ages' in a coma state. So, yes, you can experience full stories that feel incredibly real, just as real as your current reality. It’s just very difficult to retain it, since for one reality to feel real, another needs to feel fake (or less real), so you always get this weird blend (hence why it’s very difficult to scientifically track and report these instances). The key insight for immersion is that you need a singular point of focus that feels most important, something to fully engage with and concentrate on. To achieve this, the best illusion is to forget everything else, making it seem as unreal as possible, so that your focus remains on the one thing that feels "most" real. That's kind of what God is doing. Since He created all these stories, He knows they are all equally His. The only way to truly immerse oneself in or believe one story is to forget all the others, along with the creation process itself, and fully embrace the current story as the truest, most real experience. I hope that makes sense!

Quote

Getting slightly off-topic, but one thing that's been bugging me about the way Leo discusses Truth is that he often equates concepts like 'unicorns' and 'the past experiences of my life' and 'physics' as all being 'pure fantasy'. Like, surely we're able to make some finer-grain distinctions between concepts... surely some concepts are more connected to reality/truth than other concepts?

Isn't it fair enough to assume that there is actually a real place called China (even though I've never experienced it directly) when so many things in my direct experience have suggested that a place called China does in fact, exist?  Isn't it fair enough to assume that my past experiences actually happened (and are not imagined, even though I am remembering them, which, yeah I guess is like a form of imagination, but not in the same sense as imagining a planet made out of bananas, for example) given that I have memories of them? Isn't it fair enough to assume that I was born when I see other people get born and grow up to become a unique person, like me?

Isn't it fair enough to assume that other people are having their own unique experience of reality when they are over there, doing their thing, and here I am, and hey, we both agree on some things about this reality we find ourselves in, but not everything, and we both express ourselves in a unique way...

If we are all one being, aka God, having a unique experience of reality, that's pretty cool, but we're still all having unique experiences, and physics is still more real than a unicorn. 

I think a clearer way to approach this is by looking at it through the lens of 1st order and 2nd order, since the word 'real' tends to carry a lot of emotional baggage and connotations. When Leo expresses it this way, it can often feel dismissive or invalidating.

When God created one, five, twenty, or even infinite stories, it's not that these stories aren't 'real.' Rather, they are extensions of God Himself. In creating them, God momentarily deluded Himself into forgetting that He is the source of all these stories. He created them to "complete" Himself fully, both in limited and unlimited forms, both in states of delusion and full awareness. This process allows God to explore and understand every aspect of His own being.

When we speak of solipsism, we’re simply saying that 1st order God is singular, complete, eternal, and solipsistic. Hence, why Solipsism is true, since it is 1st order. Everything that comes from it, the 2nd order, is still part of it, but fragmented, limited, impermanent, extensions of the original, divided parts of it. Does that help clarify it?

The reason we use the word 'real' is because we also use it colloquially when referring to 1st and 2nd order. To give you a few examples:

• Your face is the 'real' face. But then I add a filter, some Photoshop, and now you have a picture of your filtered self. The picture is still 'real,' but it's second-order to your 'real' self. So when someone asks how you actually (IN REALITY) look, you'd say how you look in the unfiltered photo. Aka, you refer to your 1st order image as the 'REAL' one. The second one exists, but it is a 2nd order extension, a filtered perception of your REAL face. Does that make sense?
• Or when quantum physics was discovered to be more 'true' and 'real' than Newtonian physics: Newtonian physics wasn’t invalidated; it was just shown to be true within a smaller scope of reality, while quantum physics encompassed both Newtonian equations and higher equations. So we'd say quantum physics is 1st order, and Newtonian physics is 2nd order, derived from quantum physics.

I’d recommend using this logic personally, as it helps remove the emotional charge from the concept.

The issue is that, as egos, we've been taught to equate 'real' with the 2nd order reality because we’ve never directly experienced the 1st order. So when we’re told that what we perceive as 'real' is not truly real, it feels incredibly invalidating. We’re so deeply attached to this 2nd order reality because it's all we know. It's like a child crying because they’ve just realized Santa isn’t real, even though they’ve believed for 10 years that a jolly old man gives them gifts every Christmas. To us, as adults, it seems silly because we understand the 1st order truth, that Santa isn't real, but to that child, it shatters everything. The emotions, attachments, and pain are deeply real for them.

Now, imagine our situation is much more profound. We’re not just talking about a child who believed in Santa for 10 years. Think about 20, 30, 40, or even 60+ years of a full, fleshed-out narrative: relationships, careers, friendships, love, heartbreak, loss, betrayal, wars, successes, failures, joy, pain, and everything in between. And then someone tells you that all of it isn’t real. Of course, it feels impossible to accept, because it feels like we’re being asked to discard a lifetime of experiences, emotions, and attachments. Naturally, it’s not something we’d accept without resistance; it’s incredibly difficult to even consider. Which is why the lack of God-realization continues. This is also why we need long retreats, deep meditation, and the most potent psychedelics to truly break free from our natural wiring and realize these truths. These are incredibly difficult truths to confront, and realistically, they’re not that practical when it comes to survival.

This doesn’t mean anything bad at all. It just means you get to experience this limited existence and try to make the most out of it. It’s not really that different from accepting death. Either way, death will make it all seem like an illusion at some point. So, from that perspective, it’s not anything that new.

[Daniel Balan]

28 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

And thats perfect.  But don't equate the realization of Aloneness as God with psychedelics.   It can also be realized via meditation.  But your Truth is yours and yours alone.  It's funny we go back to true and false spirituality.   False spirituality would be me trying to convince you of Solipsism or any other worldview.   Your conclusions are your own.  I will say however that once you get into the worldview of reality being Consciousness things really open up.

Look! I don't deny that solipsism could be true. It could very well be more truthful than what my contemplation has led me to understand thus far. Probably I haven't done enough meditation or consciousness work to validate solipsism for myself. I contemplate via thinking and reasoning, not via meditation. That's why my contemplation results are limited. I don't have enough life time for how much work Leo's teaching require. 

Edited Saturday at 10:53 PM by Daniel Balan

[Xonas Pitfall]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

There is a further radical possibility of infinite sovereign minds all permanently isolated from each others. With no way to connect. This is what my Infinite Gods video was about. But these others minds would not be the people you see in your life. They would be completely inaccessible to you. The people you see in your life would still all be your own mind, so this doesn't really help you escape solipsism.

This makes very little sense to me. I understand that God inherently has to have an 'other' or 'infinite others' within it, but it’s still all God, no? It’s just more properties, instances of God within the same singular God. Otherwise, it doesn’t really make sense logically.

[Inliytened1]

16 hours ago, Xonas Pitfall said:

This makes very little sense to me. I understand that God inherently has to have an 'other' or 'infinite others' within it, but it’s still all God, no? It’s just more properties, instances of God within the same singular God. Otherwise, it doesn’t really make sense logically.

Hes right about this however it also can't be escaped that this too exists within your own Mind.  You are left with an open ended possibility.   There would be nothing to prevent this but also it could never exist within your reality thus rendering it imagination by default.  Of course since imagination is reality.......

Edited Sunday at 02:45 PM by Inliytened1

[Xonas Pitfall]

1 minute ago, Inliytened1 said:

Hes right about this however it also can't be escaped that this too exists within your own Mind.  You are left with an open ended possibility.   There would be nothing to prevent this but also it could never exist within your reality thus rendering it imagination by default.

It can't be both. It would invalidate the logic of God.

The logic of God states it has to include all and everything. So yes, that includes the possibility of other gods, but they are still contained within the infinity. Otherwise, the logic of God breaks, which would also be included inside of God. Just like for God to be 'all,' it has to be both 'all' and 'nothing' and 'something.' So, it creates both nothing and something, but those 'nothing' and 'something' also exist within God. Riiiight...?

Not really sure what we’re pointing to anymore, haha. 

[Max1993]

@Daniel Balan When people say they will never try psychedelics it physically hurts me lol. Imagining my life without them... all I see is a person destined to be lost. I would be completely lost without them. I was destined to be an atheist forever without them. 

Edited Saturday at 11:10 PM by Max1993

[Inliytened1]

28 minutes ago, Xonas Pitfall said:

It can't be both. It would invalidate the logic of God.

The logic of God states it has to include all and everything. So yes, that includes the possibility of other gods, but they are still contained within the infinity. Otherwise, the logic of God breaks, which would also be included inside of God. Just like for God to be 'all,' it has to be both 'all' and 'nothing' and 'something.' So, it creates both nothing and something, but those 'nothing' and 'something' also exist within God. Riiiight...?

Not really sure what we’re pointing to anymore, haha. 

It doesn't exactly contradict the logic of God because the logic of God can include all possibilities including mystery itself.  So perhaps this is encompassed in the logic of God itself.  

But I still refrain because ultimately having other existences identical to yourself is no different then yourself alone.. Thus..still One.

Edited Saturday at 11:15 PM by Inliytened1