How to transcend physical pain

[Sugarcoat]

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

But why is physical your concern? Rarely is that the prominent form of suffering for most of us. There's not much that can be done about physical pain, except understanding what it is at its root. But again, that's advanced shit.

Because I have a condition that has the risk of getting progressively worse, so far it has been bearable though. And I have family member with a bunch of chronic pain that is even younger than me and they describe how horrible it is so I have some concern for future (I still manage to be quite calm most of the time). Things run in my family.

I am just not used to pain, I was pain free before so it’s very new to me and I don’t know how bad it can get. But it’s like my mind images it in advance

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

@Sugarcoat

What you are suffering is fear, so your subject could be fear, first and foremost.

 

It’s not a strong fear. It’s more like a medium concern (after I managed to calm myself down). 
 

But yes you are right , so far it has been mostly mental .

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

@Sugarcoat Stop imagining a future and pain can't be feared. Whenever something physically painful occurs, you may well suffer that, but at least the double suffering of fearing pain is no longer present.

 

I agree we have power to influence our minds to stop a certain activity. 
 

But in my experience, in the past in particular. Something can linger in the mind strongly, and it is not enough to simply use willpower, or a temporary shifting of focus or change of thought, to stop those thoughts from lingering : what is required is a rewiring that takes time. Repetitive behavior, dissolution of a layer to the psyche that contains that lingering thought, facing the fear etc.
 

It can even be ingrained biologically to fear something (for example pain or social rejection) so it’s even going against biology to try to stop it. So a kind of biological rewiring is needed too

But I’m not saying it cannot be done nonetheless, with work, sometimes perhaps it’s more  simple

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

@Sugarcoat Suffering has many forms. We generally can notice how such seemingly innocuous experiences such as craving something or being jealous can be based on suffering. So, lots to uncover in this domain. 

 

I have transcended most of those trivial things

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

@Sugarcoat I invite you to consider, you don't. You think you do, but aren't making the connections in your experience yet.

 

I have considered

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

@Sugarcoat It happens because you do it. You are responsible for it. This may be difficult to see but it is an essential recognition. We're talking about mental-emotional suffering, not physical pain.

 

In my experience, and I’ve mentioned this to you before in another thread, I can consciously chose to think a thought right now: perhaps a pink elefant. 
 

And I can have influence to stop thoughts. And I can shift my mind to other thoughts.

But unless I am doing those things, my thoughts happen mostly automatically, when they first appear, so I don’t consider it my own doing mostly of the time: But it’s in my power to have influence on it and stop it, and not feed into it.

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

@Sugarcoat 

Wonderful. That helps. Also, focus on your breathing, and breath from the center (slightly below one's navel).

Who's doing your mind?

 

Thanks for the suggestion 

The last question I answered above 

My reply has gotten kinda long. But you can chose to reply to what you want it’s fine.

Edited 17 hours ago by Sugarcoat

[UnbornTao]

5 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

Because I have a condition that has the risk of getting progressively worse, so far it has been bearable though. And I have family member with a bunch of chronic pain that is even younger than me and they describe how horrible it is so I have some concern for future (I still manage to be quite calm most of the time). Things run in my family.

I see. Sorry to hear that. 

Quote

I am just not used to pain, I was pain free before so it’s very new to me and I don’t know how bad it can get. But it’s like my mind images it in advance

It’s not a strong fear. It’s more like a medium concern (after I managed to calm myself down). 
 

But yes you are right , so far it has been mostly mental .

I agree we have power to influence our minds to stop a certain activity. 

No! Start calling your mind simply "you." You do it - not something other than you. 

You can stop doing a certain activity, rather than trying to influence something external to you in hopes that the activity will diminish.

Quote

But in my experience, in the past in particular. Something can linger in the mind strongly, and it is not enough to simply use willpower, or a temporary shifting of focus or change of thought, to stop those thoughts from lingering : what is required is a rewiring that takes time. Repetitive behavior, dissolution of a layer to the psyche that contains that lingering thought, facing the fear etc.

Again, you need to take responsibility for what you do. Without the willingness to do that, you'll keep seeing suffering as something imposed from the outside. Then your only option will seem to be manipulating your internal state in an attempt to manage the suffering, not dissolve it.

Here's yet another seemingly silly exercise: think of a kiwi. Imagine the fruit. Now, stop thinking it - stop having that thought. Who did that? Seriously, who did? Now, it's just a matter of taking that principle into practice.

Quote

It can even be ingrained biologically to fear something (for example pain or social rejection) so it’s even going against biology to try to stop it. So a kind of biological rewiring is needed too

I don't know whether some of these are biologically ingrained - pain, perhaps - but we're talking about mental-emotional suffering. Consider this: a baby has to learn to fear objects being thrown at them. If even something that seems like an instinct must be learned, how much of the disempowering stuff we do could we actually unlearn?

Quote

But I’m not saying it cannot be done nonetheless, with work, sometimes perhaps it’s more  simple

I have transcended most of those trivial things

I would reconsider that point. Go beyond the two examples.

Quote

I have considered

In my experience, and I’ve mentioned this to you before in another thread, I can consciously chose to think a thought right now: perhaps a pink elefant. 

And I can have influence to stop thoughts. And I can shift my mind to other thoughts.

But unless I am doing those things, my thoughts happen mostly automatically, when they first appear, so I don’t consider it my own doing mostly of the time: But it’s in my power to have influence on it and stop it, and not feed into it.

Thanks for the suggestion 

The last question I answered above 

My reply has gotten kinda long. But you can chose to reply to what you want it’s fine.

Just like with the pink elephant - you can essentially choose to think thoughts that generate suffering, or thoughts that don't. Which is which?

It takes work and practice. Meditation can help develop mastery over the mind, so you may want to look into that.

I hope this discussion doesn't trivialize the inquiry or make it seem easy. But it is simple.

If it's true that you've transcended the myriad forms of suffering we usually engage in, notice:

1. What do you not do such that you're free of those?
2. What are you currently not doing such that they can't arise?

Here lies the key to this whole matter.

Let me ask: What does your experience tell you?

That's something to question.

Edited 12 hours ago by UnbornTao

[PurpleTree]

2 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

Because I have a condition that has the risk of getting progressively worse, so far it has been bearable though.

Wild, i also have a similar thing.

[Sugarcoat]

1 minute ago, PurpleTree said:

Wild, i also have a similar thing.

I’m sorry bout that 

[PurpleTree]

4 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

I’m sorry bout that 

No it’s ok. We’ll be alright. Or not. Now i wonder if we have a very similar thing. Probably not. 

[Sugarcoat]

1 hour ago, PurpleTree said:

No it’s ok. We’ll be alright. Or not. Now i wonder if we have a very similar thing. Probably not. 

Yea.. 

[Sugarcoat]

4 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

I see. Sorry to hear that. 

No! Start calling your mind simply "you." You do it - not something other than you. 

You can stop doing a certain activity, rather than trying to influence something external to you in hopes that the activity will diminish.

Again, you need to take responsibility for what you do. Without the willingness to do that, you'll keep seeing suffering as something imposed from the outside. Then your only option will seem to be manipulating your internal state in an attempt to manage the suffering, not dissolve it.

 

Thanks

Maybe we have different experiences of how our minds work. 

Upon observation: Most thought arise automatically

But that doesn’t mean we don’t have responsibility and power to stop it. 

Thoughts can be hard to stop because there’s attachment involved. 

And that attachment is built from societal conditioning, biological and neurological wiring. For example if you have a hard time stopping imagining your past cringe moments, it’s because you are attached to having a nice self image. So you need to dissolve that attachment to stop those thoughts from reappearing. Which can be a more longer and complex process than simply a temporary stopping of some thoughts (which can be achieved by for example shifting focus) .

 

4 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

 

Here's yet another seemingly silly exercise: think of a kiwi. Imagine the fruit. Now, stop thinking it - stop having that thought. Who did that? Seriously, who did? Now, it's just a matter of taking that principle into practice.

 

You can create a thought. It’s just that most thought don’t appear like that.

4 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

 

If it's true that you've transcended the myriad forms of suffering we usually engage in, notice:

1. What do you not do such that you're free of those?
2. What are you currently not doing such that they can't arise?

Here lies the key to this whole matter.

Let me ask: What does your experience tell you?

That's something to question.

What it took was dissolving attachment.

For example:

Attachment to having a nice self image: Creates fear of being socially awkward, creates fear of looking ugly, of seeming dumb. 
 
Once dissolved: you no longer fear those things. And negative thoughts about it won’t arise.

The process of dissolving attachment can be a complex one so it’s hard to boil down the method. But “going inward” as in observing your mind was crucial for me.

What I wrote connects to the other parts of your reply that I didn’t include here

I am not 100% firm in what I write. I see some flaws here and there. For example when i say most thoughts are automatic, one could say: you are choosing to let them be automatic.

 

Edited 10 hours ago by Sugarcoat