How to transcend physical pain

[Sugarcoat]

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

But why is physical your concern? Rarely is that the prominent form of suffering for most of us. There's not much that can be done about physical pain, except understanding what it is at its root. But again, that's advanced shit.

Because I have a condition that has the risk of getting progressively worse, so far it has been bearable though. And I have family member with a bunch of chronic pain that is even younger than me and they describe how horrible it is so I have some concern for future (I still manage to be quite calm most of the time). Things run in my family.

I am just not used to pain, I was pain free before so it’s very new to me and I don’t know how bad it can get. But it’s like my mind images it in advance

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

@Sugarcoat

What you are suffering is fear, so your subject could be fear, first and foremost.

 

It’s not a strong fear. It’s more like a medium concern (after I managed to calm myself down). 
 

But yes you are right , so far it has been mostly mental .

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

@Sugarcoat Stop imagining a future and pain can't be feared. Whenever something physically painful occurs, you may well suffer that, but at least the double suffering of fearing pain is no longer present.

 

I agree we have power to influence our minds to stop a certain activity. 
 

But in my experience, in the past in particular. Something can linger in the mind strongly, and it is not enough to simply use willpower, or a temporary shifting of focus or change of thought, to stop those thoughts from lingering : what is required is a rewiring that takes time. Repetitive behavior, dissolution of a layer to the psyche that contains that lingering thought, facing the fear etc.
 

It can even be ingrained biologically to fear something (for example pain or social rejection) so it’s even going against biology to try to stop it. So a kind of biological rewiring is needed too

But I’m not saying it cannot be done nonetheless, with work, sometimes perhaps it’s more  simple

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

@Sugarcoat Suffering has many forms. We generally can notice how such seemingly innocuous experiences such as craving something or being jealous can be based on suffering. So, lots to uncover in this domain. 

 

I have transcended most of those trivial things

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

@Sugarcoat I invite you to consider, you don't. You think you do, but aren't making the connections in your experience yet.

 

I have considered

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

@Sugarcoat It happens because you do it. You are responsible for it. This may be difficult to see but it is an essential recognition. We're talking about mental-emotional suffering, not physical pain.

 

In my experience, and I’ve mentioned this to you before in another thread, I can consciously chose to think a thought right now: perhaps a pink elefant. 
 

And I can have influence to stop thoughts. And I can shift my mind to other thoughts.

But unless I am doing those things, my thoughts happen mostly automatically, when they first appear, so I don’t consider it my own doing mostly of the time: But it’s in my power to have influence on it and stop it, and not feed into it.

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

@Sugarcoat 

Wonderful. That helps. Also, focus on your breathing, and breath from the center (slightly below one's navel).

Who's doing your mind?

 

Thanks for the suggestion 

The last question I answered above 

My reply has gotten kinda long. But you can chose to reply to what you want it’s fine.

Edited July 27 by Sugarcoat

[UnbornTao]

5 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

Because I have a condition that has the risk of getting progressively worse, so far it has been bearable though. And I have family member with a bunch of chronic pain that is even younger than me and they describe how horrible it is so I have some concern for future (I still manage to be quite calm most of the time). Things run in my family.

I see. Sorry to hear that. 

Quote

I am just not used to pain, I was pain free before so it’s very new to me and I don’t know how bad it can get. But it’s like my mind images it in advance

It’s not a strong fear. It’s more like a medium concern (after I managed to calm myself down). 
 

But yes you are right , so far it has been mostly mental .

I agree we have power to influence our minds to stop a certain activity. 

No! Start calling your mind simply "you." You do it - not something other than you. 

You can stop doing a certain activity, rather than trying to influence something external to you in hopes that the activity will diminish.

Quote

But in my experience, in the past in particular. Something can linger in the mind strongly, and it is not enough to simply use willpower, or a temporary shifting of focus or change of thought, to stop those thoughts from lingering : what is required is a rewiring that takes time. Repetitive behavior, dissolution of a layer to the psyche that contains that lingering thought, facing the fear etc.

Again, you need to take responsibility for what you do. Without the willingness to do that, you'll keep seeing suffering as something imposed from the outside. Then your only option will seem to be manipulating your internal state in an attempt to manage the suffering, not dissolve it.

Here's yet another seemingly silly exercise: think of a kiwi. Imagine the fruit. Now, stop thinking it - stop having that thought. Who did that? Seriously, who did? Now, it's just a matter of taking that principle into practice.

Quote

It can even be ingrained biologically to fear something (for example pain or social rejection) so it’s even going against biology to try to stop it. So a kind of biological rewiring is needed too

I don't know whether some of these are biologically ingrained - pain, perhaps - but we're talking about mental-emotional suffering. Consider this: a baby has to learn to fear objects being thrown at them. If even something that seems like an instinct must be learned, how much of the disempowering stuff we do could we actually unlearn?

Quote

But I’m not saying it cannot be done nonetheless, with work, sometimes perhaps it’s more  simple

I have transcended most of those trivial things

I would reconsider that point. Go beyond the two examples.

Quote

I have considered

In my experience, and I’ve mentioned this to you before in another thread, I can consciously chose to think a thought right now: perhaps a pink elefant. 

And I can have influence to stop thoughts. And I can shift my mind to other thoughts.

But unless I am doing those things, my thoughts happen mostly automatically, when they first appear, so I don’t consider it my own doing mostly of the time: But it’s in my power to have influence on it and stop it, and not feed into it.

Thanks for the suggestion 

The last question I answered above 

My reply has gotten kinda long. But you can chose to reply to what you want it’s fine.

Just like with the pink elephant - you can essentially choose to think thoughts that generate suffering, or thoughts that don't. Which is which?

It takes work and practice. Meditation can help develop mastery over the mind, so you may want to look into that.

I hope this discussion doesn't trivialize the inquiry or make it seem easy. But it is simple.

If it's true that you've transcended the myriad forms of suffering we usually engage in, notice:

1. What do you not do such that you're free of those?
2. What are you currently not doing such that they can't arise?

Here lies the key to this whole matter.

Let me ask: What does your experience tell you?

That's something to question.

Edited July 27 by UnbornTao

[PurpleTree]

2 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

Because I have a condition that has the risk of getting progressively worse, so far it has been bearable though.

Wild, i also have a similar thing.

[Sugarcoat]

1 minute ago, PurpleTree said:

Wild, i also have a similar thing.

I’m sorry bout that 

[PurpleTree]

4 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

I’m sorry bout that 

No it’s ok. We’ll be alright. Or not. Now i wonder if we have a very similar thing. Probably not. 

[Sugarcoat]

1 hour ago, PurpleTree said:

No it’s ok. We’ll be alright. Or not. Now i wonder if we have a very similar thing. Probably not. 

Yea.. 

[Sugarcoat]

4 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

I see. Sorry to hear that. 

No! Start calling your mind simply "you." You do it - not something other than you. 

You can stop doing a certain activity, rather than trying to influence something external to you in hopes that the activity will diminish.

Again, you need to take responsibility for what you do. Without the willingness to do that, you'll keep seeing suffering as something imposed from the outside. Then your only option will seem to be manipulating your internal state in an attempt to manage the suffering, not dissolve it.

 

Thanks

Maybe we have different experiences of how our minds work. 

Upon observation: Most thought arise automatically

But that doesn’t mean we don’t have responsibility and power to stop it. 

Thoughts can be hard to stop because there’s attachment involved. 

And that attachment is built from societal conditioning, biological and neurological wiring. For example if you have a hard time stopping imagining your past cringe moments, it’s because you are attached to having a nice self image. So you need to dissolve that attachment to stop those thoughts from reappearing. Which can be a more longer and complex process than simply a temporary stopping of some thoughts (which can be achieved by for example shifting focus) .

 

4 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

 

Here's yet another seemingly silly exercise: think of a kiwi. Imagine the fruit. Now, stop thinking it - stop having that thought. Who did that? Seriously, who did? Now, it's just a matter of taking that principle into practice.

 

You can create a thought. It’s just that most thought don’t appear like that.

4 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

 

If it's true that you've transcended the myriad forms of suffering we usually engage in, notice:

1. What do you not do such that you're free of those?
2. What are you currently not doing such that they can't arise?

Here lies the key to this whole matter.

Let me ask: What does your experience tell you?

That's something to question.

What it took was dissolving attachment.

For example:

Attachment to having a nice self image: Creates fear of being socially awkward, creates fear of looking ugly, of seeming dumb. 
 
Once dissolved: you no longer fear those things. And negative thoughts about it won’t arise.

The process of dissolving attachment can be a complex one so it’s hard to boil down the method. But “going inward” as in observing your mind was crucial for me.

What I wrote connects to the other parts of your reply that I didn’t include here

I am not 100% firm in what I write. I see some flaws here and there. For example when i say most thoughts are automatic, one could say: you are choosing to let them be automatic.

 

Edited July 28 by Sugarcoat

[PurpleTree]

16 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

For example:

Attachment to having a nice self image: Creates fear of being socially awkward, creates fear of looking ugly, of seeming dumb. 
 

How did it dissolve? By listening to Jim Noooman?

[Sugarcoat]

1 hour ago, PurpleTree said:

How did it dissolve? By listening to Jim Noooman?

Jim Nooman lol

It took several years. 
 

I don’t have the best memory but I went inward a lot, observed how my mind and identity worked. That’s like a foundation.

Then I took action, facing my social fear by exposing myself to scary social situations.

Because it’s like you have to face your dark parts of your psyche to be able to dissolve it/resolve it. So you have to seek out situations that trigger your fear in order to face it. But you can also face it alone because if you have a fear, it can be present even when you’re not directly in a scary situation 
 

Some contemplation too, about how my mind works. Some meditation, mostly to calm my anxiety down.

So all of that made the negative self image dissolve. Then I just kinda became very authentic, because I stopped having insecurity, so it was no longer a matter of being attached to a nice self image, rather it’s just being myself authentically 

Edited July 28 by Sugarcoat

[UnbornTao]

On 7/28/2025 at 0:57 AM, Sugarcoat said:

Thanks

Maybe we have different experiences of how our minds work. 

Upon observation: Most thought arise automatically

But that doesn’t mean we don’t have responsibility and power to stop it. 

Thoughts can be hard to stop because there’s attachment involved. 

And that attachment is built from societal conditioning, biological and neurological wiring. For example if you have a hard time stopping imagining your past cringe moments, it’s because you are attached to having a nice self image. So you need to dissolve that attachment to stop those thoughts from reappearing. Which can be a more longer and complex process than simply a temporary stopping of some thoughts (which can be achieved by for example shifting focus) .

Once again, pay attention to the exercise. 

What do the excuses and storytelling accomplish? Quite literally, they help reaffirm the experience and keep it as it is. They validate the actions that produce suffering.

What you're suggesting may be common - that we generally aren't very good at controlling our minds, except in certain activities or scenarios where we've developed some degree of proficiency. Yet, in broad terms, our minds seem to be like wild dogs. But consider who has been educating the dog - and who can train him.

Quote

You can create a thought. It’s just that most thought don’t appear like that.

I'm suggesting these unconscious patterns are created by you, no matter how they show up. What the exercise does is force you to create them consciously, whereas before, you were irresponsibly feeling at the mercy of your own activity. You seem to keep wanting to reinforce your role as the victim in all this. It sounds like you've also made quite a lot of progress, though.

Again, who's responsible for what you think? Surely you wouldn't say someone else is - not even something external to you. Attachment itself is something you do and maintain. There's nothing necessarily wrong with attatchment or with thoughts, by the way.

Quote

What it took was dissolving attachment.

For example:

Attachment to having a nice self image: Creates fear of being socially awkward, creates fear of looking ugly, of seeming dumb. 
 
Once dissolved: you no longer fear those things. And negative thoughts about it won’t arise.

The process of dissolving attachment can be a complex one so it’s hard to boil down the method. But “going inward” as in observing your mind was crucial for me.

What I wrote connects to the other parts of your reply that I didn’t include here

I am not 100% firm in what I write. I see some flaws here and there. For example when i say most thoughts are automatic, one could say: you are choosing to let them be automatic.

Yes, exactly. 

You need to clarify this for yourself. What is it that you're actually looking into here? Is it suffering, fear, attachment, embarrassment? Or do you simply want to express your experience and connect with others? Both are valid.

Edited Tuesday at 10:54 PM by UnbornTao

[Sugarcoat]

On 2025-07-28 at 10:32 PM, UnbornTao said:

Once again, pay attention to the exercise. 

What do the excuses and storytelling accomplish? Quite literally, they help reaffirm the experience and keep it as it is. They validate the actions that produce suffering.

 

I don’t find the ideas do anything to the experience. It’s just describing 

On 2025-07-28 at 10:32 PM, UnbornTao said:

 

What you're suggesting may be common - that we generally aren't very good at controlling our minds, except in certain activities or scenarios where we've developed some degree of proficiency. Yet, in broad terms, our minds seem to be like wild dogs. But consider who has been educating the dog - and who can train him.

I'm suggesting these unconscious patterns are created by you, no matter how they show up. What the exercise does is force you to create them consciously, whereas before, you were irresponsibly feeling at the mercy of your own activity. You seem to keep wanting to reinforce your role as the victim in all this. It sounds like you've also made quite a lot of progress, though.

Again, who's responsible for what you think? Surely you wouldn't say someone else is - not even something external to you. Attachment itself is something you do and maintain. There's nothing necessarily wrong with attatchment or with thoughts, by the way.

 

I don’t know if you’re saying your mind is 100% your own making. In that case I would disagree

It feels like we are the ones thinking, yet many thoughts happen automatically. In same way it feels we are the ones breathing, but breath happens automatically 

But any moment is opportunity to notice breath and stop it, same with thoughts. We can control breath in same way we can choose to think about something

Thoughts often arise from the psyche and identity, which are connected. And those two form during younger years from several factors that are not all a choice of yours

That recognition is not playing victim. It’s noticing how your mind functions

We are involved in thinking, we engage thoughts, we help maintain attachment, we let thoughts come - but they have a certain life of their own, a force of their own, that’s why it’s so hard to stop them in meditation, and so hard to dissolve attachment 

It’s almost like you seem opposed to the idea that thoughts are not 100% your own making because you think that such a recognition would make it harder or even not possible to overcome your mental suffering then. But that’s not true, just because something arose by other factors than your choice, doesn’t mean it cannot be overcome. It’s like how you can cure a disease even if you didn’t create it

On 2025-07-28 at 10:32 PM, UnbornTao said:

 

You need to clarify this for yourself. What is it that you're actually looking into here? Is it suffering, fear, attachment, embarrassment? Or do you simply want to express your experience and connect with others? Both are valid.

Both

 

Edited Wednesday at 10:18 PM by Sugarcoat

[UnbornTao]

@Sugarcoat

The stories are invented and extraneous to the simple action of not doing something - of not thinking one thought over another thought. Didn't you do the exercise? It should have clarified that principle to a degree.

Bear in mind that by thinking, we don't just mean the usual internal chatter as a superficial activity. What and how you "think" at a deep level is what creates your experience - perhaps.

Entertain the simple idea of not doing something. And then practice not doing it - like fear or depression. As you suggest, this may require some practice, since our habits are strong. But it can be done now.

Quote

Both

Okay. So what is it you're inquiring into?

Quote

I don’t know if you’re saying your mind is 100% your own making. In that case I would disagree

It feels like we are the ones thinking, yet many thoughts happen automatically. In same way it feels we are the ones breathing, but breath happens automatically 

But any moment is opportunity to notice breath and stop it, same with thoughts. We can control breath in same way we can choose to think about something

Thoughts often arise from the psyche and identity, which are connected. And those two form during younger years from several factors that are not all a choice of yours

That recognition is not playing victim. It’s noticing how your mind functions

We are involved in thinking, we engage thoughts, we help maintain attachment, we let thoughts come - but they have a certain life of their own, a force of their own, that’s why it’s so hard to stop them in meditation, and so hard to dissolve attachment 

It’s almost like you seem opposed to the idea that thoughts are not 100% your own making because you think that such a recognition would make it harder or even not possible to overcome your mental suffering then. But that’s not true, just because something arose by other factors than your choice, doesn’t mean it cannot be overcome. It’s like how you can cure a disease even if you didn’t create it

We don't need to get into any of this right now in order to solve this apparent dilemma.

Actually recognize "where" you are generating the activity - and that by itself will allow you to stop generating it. 

What are you not feeling right now? Are you "not bored" or "not excited"? How come? It's because you aren't doing those! You just need to make that process conscious for yourself.

Edited Thursday at 11:32 AM by UnbornTao

[Sugarcoat]

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

The stories are invented and extraneous to the simple action of not doing something - of not thinking one thought over another thought. Didn't you do the exercise? It should have clarified that principle to a degree.

I did the exercise. I tend to at random moments consciously create a thought 

I recognize the persons involvement in thought. I just say it’s not the entire picture 

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

@Sugarcoat

 

Bear in mind that by thinking, we don't just mean the usual internal chatter as a superficial activity. What and how you "think" at a deep level is what creates your experience - perhaps.

 

It’s the entire psyche and self (which might be a mental self image🤔)

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

@Sugarcoat

Entertain the simple idea of not doing something. And then practice not doing it - like fear or depression. As you suggest, this may require some practice, since our habits are strong. But it can be done now.

 

That is a reasonable suggestion and a piece to the puzzle. 

It’s just that in my experience, resolving issues takes more than simply choosing to not do. When I was socially anxious, the anxious thoughts had like a life of their own, they arose with force, to stop them for good required literally breaking down the aspect of the psyche associated with those thoughts (like the self image)

”Not doing” thoughts with such force sounds like using willpower. With enough willpower you can stop anything you do. But for most people using willpower won’t be enough to keep the same pattern from repeating itself, they will need a different process in addition 

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

@Sugarcoat

 

Okay. So what is it you're inquiring into?

We don't need to get into any of this right now in order to solve this apparent dilemma.

Actually recognize "where" you are generating the activity - and that by itself will allow you to stop generating it.

It’s discussing our role in mental suffering

You could also say “recognize where the thoughts are arising” . They have both the component of being generated by you, and arising from the psyche 

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

@Sugarcoat

What are you not feeling right now? Are you "not bored" or "not excited"? How come? It's because you aren't doing those! You just need to make that process conscious for yourself.

Not to repeat too much but you could also say “they aren’t arising anymore”. Because me being peaceful right now took years of process, breaking down the psyche . It’s more than just not doing 

If you don’t feel we are getting anywhere with this it’s ok you can end the discussion, we might just have very different experiences 

Edited Thursday at 12:40 PM by Sugarcoat

[UnbornTao]

@Sugarcoat Stop treating suffering as something external that is imposed on you. It's not. "The mind, the psyche, the thought, the structure." No - you!

We could put it like this, somewhat poetically:

Circumstances don't care about you - you do. What happens is what happens; your relationship to it, believe it or not, is based on you. This is where you experience suffering - not in what factually or objectively occurs. What is is inherently free of suffering.

You're commited to defending suffering. So why resist it? Surely, embracing it would change your experience of it.

From there, you'll be able to contemplate it more effectively.

In the end, it's entirely up to you.

Quote

Does not man, perhaps, love something besides well-being? Perhaps he is just as fond of suffering? Man is sometimes extraordinarily, passionately, in love with suffering, and that is a fact.

- Dostoevsky

 

Edited Thursday at 06:06 PM by UnbornTao

[Sugarcoat]

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

@Sugarcoat Stop treating suffering as something external that is imposed on you. It's not. "The mind, the psyche, the thought, the structure." No - you!

We could put it like this, somewhat poetically:

Circumstances don't care about you - you do. What happens is what happens; your relationship to it, believe it or not, is based on you. This is where you experience suffering - not in what factually or objectively occurs. What is is inherently free of suffering.

You're commited to defending suffering. So why resist it? Surely, embracing it would change your experience of it.

From there, you'll be able to contemplate it more effectively.

In the end, it's entirely up to you.

 

I have since many years ago seen how all suffering is internal

Then wether internal automatically means “your own making” is what we’ve been discussing here and have some disagreements on 

I have been trying to relinquish resistance yes, I am open to the idea that a lot of our suffering is due to our resistance. It’s something I haven’t fully confirmed experientially though

Has this realization about suffering being self generated helped you overcome suffering or is it more so an idea you hold? You don’t have to answer ofc. But I’m asking just out of curiosity . Because I have overcome significant mental suffering even without that idea (I think it’s partly self generated but not fully)

Edited Thursday at 07:56 PM by Sugarcoat

[UnbornTao]

3 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

I have since many years ago seen how all suffering is internal

Isn't that just an intellectual recognition? 

Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

3 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

Then wether internal automatically means “your own making” is what we’ve been discussing here and have some disagreements on 

You're too smart for me. 

3 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

I have been trying to relinquish resistance yes, I am open to the idea that a lot of our suffering is due to our resistance. It’s something I haven’t fully confirmed experientially though

Has this realization about suffering being self generated helped you overcome suffering or is it more so an idea you hold? You don’t have to answer ofc. But I’m asking just out of curiosity . Because I have overcome significant mental suffering even without that idea (I think it’s partly self generated but not fully)

For sure. Which doesn't mean that it is always easy to do, but it is essentially simple.

[Sugarcoat]

7 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Isn't that just an intellectual recognition? 

Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this conversation

Internal ≠ self created (according to me). We discussed wether it was self created, so it’s a different convo 

 

7 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

 

You're too smart for me. 

 

Lol 

7 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

 

For sure. Which doesn't mean that it is always easy to do, but it is essentially simple.

Good for you. I’ll try to see to what extent I’m generating suffering too 

Edited Friday at 07:33 AM by Sugarcoat