Hardkill

Where do you go to meet women now that you're in your 40s, Leo?

95 posts in this topic

51 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I think I just have a problem with language being the method of communication >.<

 

One thing I have been doing lately:

Either expressing what I want to say nonverbally or asking the other person: "Can you express what you want to express right now without words"?

Not always easy, but fun. Can also be a game changer in discussions etc with partner,family for instance.

 

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@theleelajoker A very sly way to put people on the spot and expose ego and insecurity!

I enjoy talking and performing for audiences so it would be a fun experience for me...

But I can already hear my sister talking about being embarrassed. Or how stupid it is when we have words etc

I wish I could FORCE others to regress to child-like wonder - before society gets their claws into them with all these 'concepts' 'frames' 'ideas' 'language'

Into the bin! I didn't even realise singing in music was actual words for a long time... embarrassingly long time! I thought it was just using the voice like an instrument to make sounds :P


Deal with the issue now, on your terms, in your control. Or the issue will deal with you, in ways you won't appreciate, and cannot control.

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2 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

The result is that curiosity is peaked from other people. This is the only part of the situation I personally struggle with. I don't know WHAT the other people want to know - I don't know what to give them. Because there is a large sense of them wanting to understand and grasp how this authenticity works. I want to be clear here - as much as this is entangled within ego, I don't use this to define myself because I don't really know what this quality is. And due to the probing of others, I am quite left with ??? because I myself do not know how to answer. 

So some of this is born of the fear I am going to cause them frustration when I cannot enunciate what I am doing that results in the carefree, accepting and earnest presence I naturally have. Often those around me go from very curious, probing - to very very turned off when I cannot answer - it is perceived as rejection. And through this process the other person holds me responsible for their reaction. I don't have a problem with this - I know its their problem. At the same time, I enjoy intimacy - but this problem causes others frustration. The 'other' always thinks I am holding something back. I am gatekeeping something - some knowledge. But there is nothing there! 

I can only imagine I could possibly have a block, or these individuals (almost bloody everyone!!) have some attachment issues or trauma. But I suspect a lot of this may be due to my process of getting close to others. It's through shared experience. Not words. Only actions shared. Experience shared. That's when I see the person more clearly and felt known. That, to me, is real intimacy. Not words. In the doing. Love is a verb.

Yeah, I wouldn’t rule out some pathology 😂

What is it they’re trying to find in you that you say doesn’t exist?
 

 

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@Joshe

They want to know how I am not judging experiences and forming negative feelings - I have tried to explain how this frees one up to be genuine, authentic and carefree. But it is not something I can put into words. Or, I am failing to do so. It is definitely 'how' I am doing what I am doing I cannot explain - because at the root of it, it's what I am NOT doing. Ergo the frustration :P

I do take illness, injury and death seriously. It is the self generated suffering I do not have that words are not able to encapsulate. I feel myself as fluid and formless as an ego, and so I can change and imagine who I want to be. I think I lack a lot of attachment to qualities. Obviously there is some attachment - because I can be attached to this 'lack of attachment'! But I do not feel restricted.

Acting and being from this space is like crack to people.

There is a distinct feeling of them wanting to 'get' it - and their frustration is pushed onto me when I cannot explain.

And to be clear - I know their frustration is their shit. I just dislike they have this experience 

 

Edited by Natasha Tori Maru

Deal with the issue now, on your terms, in your control. Or the issue will deal with you, in ways you won't appreciate, and cannot control.

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16 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Acting and being from this space is like crack to people.

Could it be that's not really what they're after? IME, most people are not trying to attain some new understanding of their psyche so they can transcend their current state. 

IME, certain types of people are drawn into my self-containment, as they can sense something deep, something quiet, yet intense. Something intelligent, something strong, but it's not so much they they want to attain what I have or even understand how it works so much as it is just alluring to them and they'd like to be with it, explore it, and be explored by it. Many people feel threatened by this intensity but others love to be the center of my attention for a while because I probe and get to know them with the same depth of perception, analysis, and acceptance that I give to myself. So I give that to them and they like it, but I don't think they are after my innerworkings, not IME. 

You may read my description and think "I detect ego". But I'm well aware of this. For me to acknowledge these things, I had to accept the reality that I am quite different and possess admirable traits. You seem put off by the idea of owning your gifts. It can be tricky to accept them without letting the ego co-opt the truth, but if there's a block with you, I suspect it could be there.

I'm not claiming this is what's going on with you, but it did stand out as a possibility. I analyzed you a bit and came up with this: 

2ZEzu4E.png

Maybe by accepting that you're quite special, without hedging, the block would go away. 

I hope you don't mind me analyzing you out in the open. 

Edited by Joshe

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19 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

@theleelajoker A very sly way to put people on the spot and expose ego and insecurity!

I enjoy talking and performing for audiences so it would be a fun experience for me..

Yes some people feel put on the spot. Happened to me, it's too much for some.

But it can also be quite playful, for example in romantic interactions, in one of the first dates when there is still uncertainty where things are heading:)

19 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I wish I could FORCE others to regress to child-like wonder - before society gets their claws into them with all these 'concepts' 'frames' 'ideas' 'language'

+1

It's de-programming. All this concept thinking can be a real hindrance in life (speaking also from own experience)

21 minutes ago, Joshe said:

Could it be that's not really what they're after? IME, most people are not trying to attain some new understanding of their psyche so they can transcend their current state

IME, certain types of people are drawn into my self-containment, as they can sense something deep, something quiet, yet intense. Something intelligent, something strong, but it's not so much they they want to attain what I have or even understand how it works so much as it just alluring to them and they'd like to be with it, explore it, and be explored by it. Many people feel threatened by this intensity but others love to be the center of my attention for a while because I probe and get to know them with the same depth of perception, analysis, and acceptance that I give to myself. So I give that to them and they like it, but I don't think they are after my innerworkings, not IME. 

@JosheHoly shit you just put some stuff I have been experiencing but never quite get into words. 

Especially this part (Bold marked my me):

Many people feel threatened by this intensity but others love to be the center of my attention for a while because I probe and get to know them with the same depth of perception, analysis, and acceptance that I give to myself.

This "for a while" I had a lot recently, with men and women. People in some situations clearly love the attention they get, they like the interactions, they open up, but suddenly they then distance themselves. 

Why do you think it's like that?

You already mentioned intensity and I think there's something to it. I know I built my skill in observation and depth of perception during many hours of Vipassana and oh yeah, that took lots of time to get used to as well. 

+1 in the inner workings and people not enough being interested in transcending their current level of their psyche. I say "not enough" because for a start, they are but then IME fear takes over. 

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1 hour ago, theleelajoker said:

Especially this part (Bold marked my me):

Many people feel threatened by this intensity but others love to be the center of my attention for a while because I probe and get to know them with the same depth of perception, analysis, and acceptance that I give to myself.

This "for a while" I had a lot recently, with men and women. People in some situations clearly love the attention they get, they like the interactions, they open up, but suddenly they then distance themselves. 

Why do you think it's like that?

Ah, someone who knows what I'm talking about! 

Haha, yes, it's funny you caught that. I almost forgot to add it in when writing, but it's important. 

Regarding casual acquaintances, it's probably to do with opening them up too quickly. I've noticed this before. They probably reflect on the experience of spilling some of their most intimate thoughts to a stranger or acquaintance, or admitting things in real time that they themselves have not considered before, and when they reflect on the experience, it just makes them feel uneasy without some history.

You just have to read them the next time you see them. If they appear closed or hesitant at all, show no eagerness to engage them. I found they will often find their way back to you if you don't appear eager to engage them, but it's different for everyone. Some people show back up with a huge smile on their face, ready to pick up where you left off, while others disengage but secretly wish you would engage them again, while others stay as far away from you as possible. lol. We aren't compatible with the latter anyway.

When I first started connecting with people like this, I'd sometimes get carried away with the intensity, but with experience, I learned when to tone it down.

Edited by Joshe

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@Joshe This describes the mechanism behind it quite well.

I view it as the addictive nature of feeling seen, known. It is very VERY powerful to others when you probe into them to find out more about them. Feeling understood.

To be known is intimate - a form of love. People are starved of that, so when you pay attention and show interest in their inner worlds they are delighted and taken aback. To my experience anyway :) I just happen to enjoy finding out how others inner worlds operate.

You explained well some of my conundrum! 

The other half is when someone is genuinely trying to extract how I do what I do. They probably don't ask the right questions, so I cannot give a clear answer. It doesn't help my inner world and workings really aren't clear to me. Nothing is concrete within my mind, I link things together in ways others don't expect - but I definitely verify things externally for truth. 

I digress.. 


Deal with the issue now, on your terms, in your control. Or the issue will deal with you, in ways you won't appreciate, and cannot control.

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3 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I link things together in ways others don't expect

Yes, it’s hard for people to track the non-linear. Those close to me still make mistakes all the time assuming I’m doing something that I’m not. If you see me reading the Bible, it’s not because I’m interested in Christianity. And if you see me outside in my yard swinging a dog toy on a rope like a helicopter, I’m more so doing shoulder rehab than playing with my dog. lol.

1. Linear thinker’s version (They narrate every step as they go, keeping it obvious to others.)

  • My shoulder needs rehab.
  • One exercise for shoulder rehab involves circular swinging motions.
  • I can replicate that with a rope toy.
  • My dog also enjoys rope toys.
  • I’ll swing the rope toy to work my shoulder and engage my dog.
  • From the outside, everyone can follow that in real time. No mystery.

2. Non-linear version(All these steps happen internally in milliseconds)

  • Notice shoulder feels tight → recall PT exercise from months ago.
  • Instantly connect exercise motion with dog rope toy motion (pattern match).
  • Remember your dog hasn’t played in a while → anticipate benefit for dog’s mood.
  • Factor in you’re already outside and have space to swing it.
  • Decide to combine tasks: rehab + play.

lol. 

Same outcome, but very different paths to get there. 

Ni needs Te to reverse engineer what it knows. 

Edited by Joshe

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10 hours ago, Joshe said:

Ah, someone who knows what I'm talking about! 

Haha, yes, it's funny you caught that. I almost forgot to add it in when writing, but it's important. 

Regarding casual acquaintances, it's probably to do with opening them up too quickly. I've noticed this before. They probably reflect on the experience of spilling some of their most intimate thoughts to a stranger or acquaintance, or admitting things in real time that they themselves have not considered before, and when they reflect on the experience, it just makes them feel uneasy without some history.

You just have to read them the next time you see them. If they appear closed or hesitant at all, show no eagerness to engage them. I found they will often find their way back to you if you don't appear eager to engage them, but it's different for everyone. Some people show back up with a huge smile on their face, ready to pick up where you left off, while others disengage but secretly wish you would engage them again, while others stay as far away from you as possible. lol. We aren't compatible with the latter anyway.

When I first started connecting with people like this, I'd sometimes get carried away with the intensity, but with experience, I learned when to tone it down.

Yes I think we have some similarities re these interactions :D 

My experience align with the variations of interaction that you describe. Happy when people come back with a smile :) And  slowly I'm more or less becoming ok with first becoming close to people and them then becoming distant. Or with them not compatible at all form the start. And it's ok with acquaintance or stranger. 

But has veen harder for me to find the right girlfriend because the shift from them literally saying "this is great love being with you" to "ok I need to be alone" is different when I build trust myself over months. And the shift happened in a very rapid and surprising way. 

Gonna think about the intensity you learned to tone down. One the one hand, makes sense. On the other, I don't want to be someone I am not.

What I see is that adults are often same as kids - strategies of maximizing attention. Some strategies are healthy, some are less. And if you give honest attention to people without them needing to use their "unhealthy" strategies, that's of course very welcome by the human organism 

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15 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

But has veen harder for me to find the right girlfriend because the shift from them literally saying "this is great love being with you" to "ok I need to be alone" is different when I build trust myself over months. And the shift happened in a very rapid and surprising way. 

Gonna think about the intensity you learned to tone down. One the one hand, makes sense. On the other, I don't want to be someone I am not.

You may be setting a standard that reality doesn't easily reach. People are what they are, and if you're too intense for most of them, you can double down and say you're not going to settle for anyone who can't handle it, or you can learn to modulate it - turn it up or down as needed. 

Also, them pulling away may not just be about the intensity - it could be about the presentation. Like this line: "Can you express what you want to express right now without words". If you often say things like this, many people will start to think you're "weird" and that could cause them to pull away, the more of this "weirdness" you expose them to. I can tell you now, if you take 10 similar lines and say them all within the span of a week, most people will get "strange" vibes and be put off. 

So, there's really no way around the fact that if you want a sustained relationship, you will have to measure and calibrate your communications. 

Which means, you'll have to do what you don't want to: tailor your interactions. lol. 

Edited by Joshe

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15 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

What I see is that adults are often same as kids - strategies of maximizing attention. Some strategies are healthy, some are less. And if you give honest attention to people without them needing to use their "unhealthy" strategies, that's of course very welcome by the human organism

That's a good point. I never thought about it like that before, but that's spot on. 

Edited by Joshe

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13 hours ago, Joshe said:

You may be setting a standard that reality doesn't easily reach. People are what they are, and if you're too intense for most of them, you can double down and say you're not going to settle for anyone who can't handle it, or you can learn to modulate it - turn it up or down as needed. 

Also, them pulling away may not just be about the intensity - it could be about the presentation. Like this line: "Can you express what you want to express right now without words". If you often say things like this, many people will start to think you're "weird" and that could cause them to pull away, the more of this "weirdness" you expose them to. I can tell you now, if you take 10 similar lines and say them all within the span of a week, most people will get "strange" vibes and be put off. 

So, there's really no way around the fact that if you want a sustained relationship, you will have to measure and calibrate your communications. 

Which means, you'll have to do what you don't want to: tailor your interactions. lol. 

Haha No :D

I just change my baseline of expectations 

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1 hour ago, theleelajoker said:

Haha No :D

I just change my baseline of expectations 

Haha, yes, that too is inevitable. Your energy will still press for expression though. 

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21 hours ago, Joshe said:

Haha, yes, that too is inevitable. Your energy will still press for expression though. 

Yeah I have been complaining a bit above, but it's actually a good filter, too.  Makes it more and more clear what's important for me, what works, what doesn't 

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