Conservatism = Higher birth rates = Sustainable Civilization

[Husseinisdoingfine]

But what about the nuclear weapons? After all, this was the justification Israel provided. 

And regarding Palestine, what about the history of Israeli coercion, settlements, etc...

[Basman]

What would it look like exactly for civilization to be sustained by technology as opposed to "organic" breeding like in the past.

[Keryo Koffa]

46 minutes ago, Onecirrus said:

@Leo Gura How do you sustain an economy and monetary system without human labor? 

You don't need to.

[Leo Gura]

Just now, Husseinisdoingfine said:

And regarding Palestine, what about the history of Israeli coercion, settlements, etc...

Stop conflating things. This is not a Palestinian debate.

[AION]

SD red and SD orange can and will push the button but SD blue and green won’t. 

Edited June 17 by AION

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Basman said:

What would it look like exactly for civilization to be sustained by technology as opposed to "organic" breeding like in the past.

Humans will still breed, just less. Many humans will simply be replaced with robots. Children could also be birthed in labs, making it much more convenient for women.

Edited June 17 by Leo Gura

[Onecirrus]

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You made it about Palestine when it was not.

But Palestine too is dying because it is too low in development.

Every society that refuses to rapidly evolve to Orange and above will die.

That's exactly what you see in the news.

I don’t know, I feel like places like Afghanistan and much of Africa are inhospitable for Orange to arise. These places don’t have the education or order, at least not right now. I think they could last for a while, but they’ll be obsolete to the rest of the world.

[Emerald]

4 hours ago, Onecirrus said:

Are the spiral dynamic stages above blue even sustainable long term? Without serious cultural coercion, Civilization becomes people just chasing comfort, luxury, entertainment, and recreation. Children are a hard sell to modern people, you need a lot of ideology and conservative values to get people on board with this stuff with the cost of living these days. Rather than solve this problem, stage Orange is speed running AI to make large populations unnecessary, and stage Green social solutions don’t appeal to enough of the populace to be a viable strategy. Stage Blue was pretty successful for like 5000 years, why couldn’t it last 5000 more?

There will always be people who want children. It's just that when people are given free choice over having children, most will choose to have 1-3 children OR no children.

That's just part of the nature of general human preference. But in a world without contraception, sex education, or female sovereignty, people end up having way more children than they prefer.

And this is necessary for the population expansion that happens between Stage Beige and Stage Orange.

But that which goes up must come down. And expansion isn't always good... nor is contraction always bad. It's just the Yin and Yang of things.

So, sometimes the population flows... and sometimes it ebbs. That's the way of the development of our species.

And right now the population MUST start dropping or we will render the Earth unlivable. And in this sense the issue of Climate Change will somewhat fix itself as the human population contracts over the course of the coming generations.

And it seems to me that the population drop is just nature playing itself out through us... as we are also part of natures feedback systems.

Now, of course, there will be challenges in dealing with such a contraction.... just as there were challenges in dealing with population expansion. 

But to me, the birthrate dropping just feels like a natural part of human development once we start cracking more and more into Stage Green.

We just don't think about the human collective as being a part of nature.

So, we don't get surprised when manatees collectively migrate for the winter. Nor do we get surprised that certain nut trees collectively produce nuts only every few years.

Yet, we feel that the human species as a collective are exempt from being a force of nature that goes through unconscious species-wides cycles that vary in terms of timelines.... as we feel separate from all that.

But consider that the contraction of the human population is a necessary feedback loop that arises when the human collective starts to develop in ways that could become cancerous and overgrown... leading to ecological problems and potentially impediments to the ability of the "hive of humanity" to survive.

Edited June 17 by Emerald

[Leo Gura]

1 minute ago, Onecirrus said:

I think they could last for a while, but they’ll be obsolete to the rest of the world.

Yes, they will still last a while but become totally irrelevant, or they may rapidly develop (Africa).

[Basman]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Humans will still breed, just less. Many humans will simply be replaced with robots. Children could also be birthed in labs, making it much more convenient for women.

I guess it will be some sort of post-scarcity society at that point.

Not gonna lie, my initial reaction at lab babies is disgust and fear. I guess that is a very human reaction though. It's seems kind of sad in a certain respect to forego something as sacred, if you will, as pregnancy.

[Husseinisdoingfine]

Africa is indeed developing, especially Rwanda. Fancy stuff is being built over there. 

[Husseinisdoingfine]

Its just weird to make this about Spiral Dynamics or a clash of civilizations when this is about Israel not wanting other countries to have nuclear weapons. 

[Onecirrus]

@Emerald I feel like a majority Green society is so far fetched. I live in America, we’re practically still in the jungle, we can’t even get an Orange president elected, let alone a Green leader

[Emerald]

1 minute ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

Its just weird to make this about Spiral Dynamics or a clash of civilizations when this is about Israel not wanting other countries to have nuclear weapons. 

I agree. I wouldn't put a Spiral Dynamics lens on that persay... as it's not really about the paradigms of the people in these countries.

It's clearly just empires serving their own interests through acts of warfare. And as long as an empire has Stage Orange weapons of mass destruction and the leaders are adept at dominating within a Stage Orange frame, they can establish dominance even if the society they preside over is heavy Blue.

And Israel is part of the same empire coalition as the United States. And it would make sense to me that Israel was established as an ally to prevent the coalescence of an uninterrupted Arab empire.

So, I just don't see this as being a situation that can be explained well through Spiral Dynamics as it's just an empire trying to prevent the coalescence and strengthening of a rival empire.

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, Basman said:

Not gonna lie, my initial reaction at lab babies is disgust and fear.

Why?

Lab babies is no problem.

[Emerald]

4 minutes ago, Onecirrus said:

@Emerald I feel like a majority Green society is so far fetched. I live in America, we’re practically still in the jungle, we can’t even get an Orange president elected, let alone a Green leader

I'm also American. And most people here are in Stage Orange. Many are also Blue. And many are also Green.

Also, Donald Trump is literally the poster child for Stage Orange. So, that definitely isn't true that we can't get a Stage Orange person elected.

And Barack Obama is most certainly Orange with a smattering of Green.

And Bush was Blue/Orange.

So, we've been all over the map with it. But all these leaders have led in an Orange way.

Also... the idea that "society will never be green" is similar to someone 200 years ago saying that human beings will never fly.

It seems evident to us, because we're not used to such a world. But things are always changing.

Edited June 17 by Emerald

[Onecirrus]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Why?

Lab babies is no problem.

We are approaching a singularity. I can’t even imagine how different culture will be to seriously entertain this. Are you sure it won’t be some neofeudal corporate cyberpunk dystopia? 

[Emerald]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Why?

Lab babies is no problem.

The lack of a maternal incubator probably wouldn't work out well for the babies... as there is likely more to gestation than just the brass tacks physical needs.

It's similar to how, if a baby doesn't get physical contact with a parental figure, they will fail to thrive and even die... even if all their other physiological needs are being met (sustenance, warmth, etc.)

Think of "lab babies", like the Rhesus monkey experiment... only the human fetuses would be the test subjects.

So, I honestly don't think babies will ever be produced in a lab from conception to birth.

But if that does happen, I suspect it will only be sought by mothers who either have no other choice... or who are afraid of pregnancy. And it may prove to be unethical anyway for the reasons that I stated above.

Edited June 17 by Emerald

[Leo Gura]

1 minute ago, Onecirrus said:

Are you sure it won’t be some neofeudal corporate cyberpunk dystopia? 

I never said it wouldn't be that.

The problem of hyper-crapitalism remains unsolved.

[Basman]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Why?

Lab babies is no problem.

I don't know, just feels weird and kind of dehumanizing. That just my first reaction though.

Like, how is the parent-child dynamic going to work if the baby hatches from a fake egg somewhere? Is the first thing the baby sees a nanny robot?