Deconstructing “Reality” - The most comprehensive non-dual meta-analysis

[James123]

17 minutes ago, kbone said:

Sand does not quench, so no need to guzzle. And don't trust water dealers out next to the mirages, hehe.

There is no water nor sand, just within the mind, imagination, belief.

[kbone]

5 minutes ago, James123 said:

There is no water nor sand, just within the mind, imagination, belief.

Um, OK. But once Truth has been apprehended, and the mind has been relegated to its role as the cool tool for navigating the world, there's also freedom to interact within contexts of a discussion... maybe even share jokes, insights, and stories.

Throwing out ND lingo and reasoning and/or reducing every discussion to bare bones Truth-talk at every turn is not necessary. However, if one is still in the process of burning through the mind's nonsense in a post-apocalypse mode, I do understand. Some call it cleaning house, and it can get rabid and feverish. All good.

The mind can be enjoyed whilst not necessarily always trusting it; it has its flaws, to be sure. No biggie. It's kinda snorta like an existential relationship with 'someone' you know all too intimately, love them nonetheless, bu take the time to help them stay conscious.

[James123]

20 minutes ago, kbone said:

Um, OK. But once Truth has been apprehended, and the mind has been relegated to its role as the cool tool for navigating the world, there's also freedom to interact within contexts of a discussion... maybe even share jokes, insights, and stories.

Throwing out ND lingo and reasoning and/or reducing every discussion to bare bones Truth-talk at every turn is not necessary. However, if one is still in the process of burning through the mind's nonsense in a post-apocalypse mode, I do understand. Some call it cleaning house, and it can get rabid and feverish. All good.

The mind can be enjoyed whilst not necessarily always trusting it; it has its flaws, to be sure. No biggie. It's kinda snorta like an existential relationship with 'someone' you know all too intimately, love them nonetheless, bu take the time to help them stay conscious.

😘 

[kbone]

4 minutes ago, James123 said:

😘 

 

[Breakingthewall]

About neo advaita: To say that everything is consciousness and that forms are illusion is a denial disguised as understanding. If forms appear, then they are. Even if they were illusory, the illusion itself would appear as a real form, and its structure would have to be explained. Denying the reality of form doesn't make it disappear; it only denies the intelligence of the one who perceives it. 

When they say: reality isn't material, it's imaginary, this is the best. They think they've expressed something brilliant. So, what's imaginary? Like a dream! Tadah! Oh, and what's a dream? Something you create with your mind! Tadahh!! And what is your mind? Your mind is nothing!!😅And then they complain that people don't take spirituality seriously. It's designed for people who want to simplify the complex to have a false sense of control and understanding and thus lower their anxiety level. But doing this closes you up a dead end and makes you someone deluded and a little psychotic

Edited Friday at 02:46 PM by Breakingthewall

[kbone]

15 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

About neo advaita: To say that everything is consciousness and that forms are illusion is a denial disguised as understanding. If forms appear, then they are. Even if they were illusory, the illusion itself would appear as a real form, and its structure would have to be explained. Denying the reality of form doesn't make it disappear; it only denies the intelligence of the one who perceives it. 

When they say: reality isn't material, it's imaginary, this is the best. They think they've expressed something brilliant. So, what's imaginary? Like a dream! Tadah! Oh, and what's a dream? Something you create with your mind! Tadahh!! And what is your mind? Your mind is nothing!!😅And then they complain that people don't take spirituality seriously. It's designed for people who want to simplify the complex to have a false sense of control and understanding and thus lower their anxiety level. But doing this closes you up a dead end and makes you someone deluded and a little psychotic

Yeah, the confusion that many of the sand dealers have created has left things in quite a mess. It doesn't help that the journey itself is quite destabilizing and confusing already. Sometimes the intentions of the nonsense seems meant to push the mind over/through a threshold, or just to throw the mind enough that it drops and gets an insight. At others, it's apparent they have no grasp of what they're selling. It's almost like a mento-physical three-card monte routine, so it's rife with deception, much like the mind's little 'separate volitional person' game.

[James123]

@kbone @Breakingthewall just don't take granted anything, be simple, live simple and hav funnnn.

[Anton Rogachevski]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

About neo advaita: To say that everything is consciousness and that forms are illusion is a denial disguised as understanding. If forms appear, then they are. Even if they were illusory, the illusion itself would appear as a real form, and its structure would have to be explained. Denying the reality of form doesn't make it disappear; it only denies the intelligence of the one who perceives it. 

When they say: reality isn't material, it's imaginary, this is the best. They think they've expressed something brilliant. So, what's imaginary? Like a dream! Tadah! Oh, and what's a dream? Something you create with your mind! Tadahh!! And what is your mind? Your mind is nothing!!😅And then they complain that people don't take spirituality seriously. It's designed for people who want to simplify the complex to have a false sense of control and understanding and thus lower their anxiety level. But doing this closes you up a dead end and makes you someone deluded and a little psychotic

Couldn't agree more. This is the fallacy of believing in it like an ideology. 

[kbone]

26 minutes ago, James123 said:

@kbone @Breakingthewall just don't take granted anything, be simple, live simple and hav funnnn.

Yes, the honesty must be an aspect of the inquiry. Simplifying was also a big part of the journey. It's possible to now look back on the adventure with a bit of nostalgia while giggling at the insanity of it all, but there's a deep awareness of what precipitated the 'need'. All good.

[kbone]

35 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

Couldn't agree more. This is the fallacy of believing in it like an ideology. 

Exactamente. 

[Anton Rogachevski]

From my conversation with GPT, we shaped the essay like a dialog between a Zen master and a student:
 

Student: But logic says there are subjects doing actions to objects. Isn’t that real?

Master: Logic is the child's net cast into the ocean.
It catches a few fish, but not the sea.
Subject, object, action—clever words,
But the doing is never separate from the doer.
And the doer? A flicker in the doing.
They are not three, but one unfolding.

Student: So what is the purpose of it all?

Master: To awaken.
To remember.
To love.
The Source forgets itself in form,
And finds itself again in beauty.
Every heartache is a lantern.
Every joy a mirror.
The infinite learning to sing in finite voices.

Student: And me?

Master: You are the whole thing, dreaming you are small.
Your task is not to escape it,
But to embrace all of it—
Yes, even the fear, even the doubt.
Especially the parts you wish would go away.
To love without condition is to return home.

Student: Is anything hidden?

Master: Only by your own refusal to look.

Edited Friday at 05:32 PM by Anton Rogachevski

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

Master: Logic is the child's net cast into the ocean.
It catches a few fish, but not the sea.

An interesting detail: reality has so far proven to be logical at all levels. Einstein said: The strangest thing about reality is that we can understand it. It's not strange; our logical mind is made of the inherent logic of reality.

There is something that logic obviously cannot grasp: the essence of what we are, what the absence of limits implies. The only way to open yourself to this is to drop the limits. But even this fact is logical.

Manifested reality is logical because it is coherent. What is not coherent cannot exist, for a simple reason: manifest reality, form, is relative, because given an unlimited framework there can be no absolute change, only relative, and relative forces coherence with it's reflection, only because what is not coherent is lost as potential that cannot find its reflection to appear.

The very fact of the absence of limits implies infinite potential. Everything emits infinite potential in infinite directions, and what finds symmetry, a coherent and stable reflection, manifests. Deducing this is not a mystical realization; it is the inevitable consequence by elimination that remains once you break the limits.

Another inevitable consequence: manifested reality unfolds infinitely by default, without beginning, it's already done. Any expansion is not an addition to the whole, but a relational movement within it , the whole reflecting itself in new structures

Of course, feel free to debunk my vision, if it's possible 😉

Edited Friday at 06:57 PM by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

3 hours ago, kbone said:

Yeah, the confusion that many of the sand dealers have created has left things in quite a mess. It doesn't help that the journey itself is quite destabilizing and confusing already. Sometimes the intentions of the nonsense seems meant to push the mind over/through a threshold, or just to throw the mind enough that it drops and gets an insight. At others, it's apparent they have no grasp of what they're selling. It's almost like a mento-physical three-card monte routine, so it's rife with deception, much like the mind's little 'separate volitional person' game.

The problem is that ontology is very confusing and people gets stuck in those ideas. They are seductive, they promise to solve the problem of suffering, but they are limited, therefore they bind the mind. 

[Keryo Koffa]

Quote

Paraphrased for Brevity, Humor and Accelerationism

6 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

🎩🧢🟰🤞. 🌍↔️🎩⏭️❔ | 🙂‍↔️☯️ ▷○ ☯️◌ | ☝️🧾◌🧠 

💭💤🧠◌🔁 | 🗣️🧑❗💭🧘🙎 | 🗣️😬 🪞🤥😵‍💫

6 hours ago, kbone said:

Yeah, the confusion 😕 that many of the sand dealers 🛒 have created 🏗️ has left things in quite a mess 🚧. It doesn't help that the journey 🚶 itself is quite destabilizing 🫨 and confusing already. Sometimes the intentions 🤔 of the nonsense 🪄 seems meant to push 🫸 the mind 🧠 over/through a threshold 📊, or just to throw the mind enough that it drops 💧 and gets an insight 💡. At others, it's apparent they have no grasp 🤷 of what they're selling 🛒. It's almost like a mento-physical 🧠🫀 three-card 🎴 monte routine, so it's rife with deception 🤞, much like the mind's little 'separate ☯️ volitional person 😎' game 🎲.

The thumbnails are sure getting glowier, the messages can still be profound though.

Edited Friday at 09:18 PM by Keryo Koffa

[samijiben]

@Anton Rogachevski

So if you accept the Wikipedia definition of Ontology, how can you claim that it is fundamental?

Wikipedia defines it as a branch of philosophy. So, it is something humans invented.

Here is how you can prove that Ontology is not fundamental to reality. 

Look at what's in front of you. Do you see any Ontology?

No. That's a projection of your mind. 

What am I missing here?

[Anton Rogachevski]

10 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Of course, feel free to debunk my vision, if it's possible

Ahh, where to begin? I already did most of it in the past comments. I just hate repeating myself. 

10 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

The very fact of the absence of limits implies infinite potential.

The fact that perception is limited it can't perceive limits and so it seems to it that everything is "limitless", like in the fog where you don't see the edge of the fog from within and so you think it's "endless".

You are building castles in the sky here, I'm afraid you are disconnected from direct experience and you can't see its inherent limits. In other words, you still don't know just how much you don't know.

10 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

An interesting detail: reality has so far proven to be logical at all levels. Einstein said: The strangest thing about reality is that we can understand it. It's not strange; our logical mind is made of the inherent logic of reality.

Logic is a neat little ruler that is the grammar of how our brain understands things using abstractions, it's not that reality is logical, but that logic is built to make it easier for your brain to understand basic survival things better, and so it seems very coherent.

[Anton Rogachevski]

8 hours ago, samijiben said:

Look at what's in front of you. Do you see any Ontology?

No. That's a projection of your mind. 

What am I missing here?

You aren't missing anything. I never claimed to have ontology, I'm very critical of those who do think they have it. I said it multiple times in the essay and in the comments.

What's beyond the veil of perception that is the Ontology, we don't have true access to it, but we can use abstractions, intuition and logic to understand it better, and Einstein is the proof that it is possible. So I say like I've said a thousand times, Please leave Ontology alone, unless you are a theoretical physicist.

8 hours ago, samijiben said:

So, it is something humans invented.

This is an inescapable fact, everything we will ever do or try to will still be Human. So what are you saying? Are you Post Human?

--------

Now, I’m speaking hypothetically, so bear that in mind. It may be that experience is made of the same “substance” as everything else — that we ourselves are the Ontology, the very fabric of what is. What we perceive may also be Ontology, but not in a physical sense. Rather, it’s made of the strange, elusive stuff of Experience — a substance we cannot grasp from within experience itself. To experience, experience is like a sea floating within a seemingly infinite sea.

Edited Saturday at 05:45 AM by Anton Rogachevski

[samijiben]

@Anton Rogachevski you claimed that physics and ontology is reality's most basic ground. 

I am claiming that reality's most basic ground is nothing, for reality is groundless.

Physics is just as real as unicorns — Just as tertiary an arising — Just as mental as any other imagining in the MIND OF GOD.

[Anton Rogachevski]

12 minutes ago, samijiben said:

I am claiming that reality's most basic ground is nothing, for reality is groundless.

This is a very radical and bold Ontological claim. What is it based on? Where is the humility? 

You are basically claiming to know The Truth itself directly. If that's the case then you have solved all of philosophy and science. 

Edited Saturday at 05:47 AM by Anton Rogachevski

[samijiben]

Yes bro, have solved all of philosophy & science. Wasn't even that hard. No-sweat. 

You can also solve all of philosophy and science.

1st step = realizing that it is not epic riddle to be solved by figuring shit out

2nd step = see that you are imagining that ALSO, and nothing is left unknown

3rd step = collapse all steps into tbe aforementioned ever-present singularity of nothing, my dude.