If you want to defeat Israel, promise Jews there’ll never be another Holocaust.

[Twentyfirst]

1 hour ago, Apparition of Jack said:

Again, I agree with literally all of this. Read my posts again carefully. I’ve explicitly said the creation of Israel was a mistake.

Again, my point isn’t to justify Israel’s behaviour, it’s to explain where it comes from. Militant Zionism is in essence one big collective trauma response. To the Zionists, “Israel = safety”, even if their own actions make that less likely. 
 

To overcome your enemy you must first know your enemy. Calling Israelis an evil people for their actions in Gaza counter-productively causes them to double-down on their aggression as they feel more people turn against them.

It’s the spiral of hatred. The more and more you demonise a people (on whatever side of a conflict), the worse and worse the violence gets. You might utterly despise Israel for what they’ve done, and in many ways those feelings would be justified, but they would also blind you to seeking cooperative solutions to actually ending the conflict and allowing Palestinians to live in peace once again.

Yeah but why did they kill Hitler and the Nazi's? Why not seek to understand them and then just chill out with them by the beach

Zionism needs to go for peace to stabilize. Period 

[Apparition of Jack]

1 hour ago, Twentyfirst said:

Yeah but why did they kill Hitler and the Nazi's? Why not seek to understand them and then just chill out with them by the beach

Zionism needs to go for peace to stabilize. Period 

In some sense, the Allies did try to understand where Nazism came from after the war. In many ways Nazism was a response to the economic devastation of the 1930s, with far too many people feeling insecure and vulnerable to care about things like “democracy” and “racial tolerance.” After the War, the Allies set up a substantial welfare state to eradicate the material origins of fascism in Germany and other countries.

If we want to stop Israeli atrocities, we need to provide Jewish people perhaps not with the material conditions to reject Zionism, but certainly the cultural and social conditions. 
 

I suppose my question is this - what does a post-Zionist world actually look like? Is it a two-state solution? A one-state solution? Going back to the status quo before 2023? The expulsion of all Jews in the region? If you genuinely believe it’s the last one (which I don’t think you should), too many Israelis will feel like they’re receiving a second Holocaust, no matter how much you try to tell them they’re to blame.
 

If you can’t genuinely answer these questions, then the causes of Israeli aggression will continue. 
 

Does Israel get disbanded? Does the region become a dual-ethnic state governed by both Muslims and Jews? How does that look like? Would Palestinians even want to live next to their oppressors after everything they’ve been through? 
 

Make no mistake, I’m not arguing for any one vision in particular. I’m just saying, the post-conflict world in Israel/Palestine is something far too many progressives have yet failed to address, leading to knee-jerk reactions instead.

Edited May 27 by Apparition of Jack

[Twentyfirst]

29 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

In some sense, the Allies did try to understand where Nazism came from after the war. In many ways Nazism was a response to the economic devastation of the 1930s, with far too many people feeling insecure and vulnerable to care about things like “democracy” and “racial tolerance.” After the War, the Allies set up a substantial welfare state to eradicate the material origins of fascism in Germany and other countries.

If we want to stop Israeli atrocities, we need to provide Jewish people perhaps not with the material conditions to reject Zionism, but certainly the cultural and social conditions. 
 

I hear you but I am personally just not buying it. The holocaust is already etched into everybody's mind at a young age through school, movies, and word of mouth. Hitler is already more evil than other 20th century dictators who killed far more people. Nobody cares about the other hundreds of millions of people who died in WW2. You can get arrested in EU for praising Hitler. Germany has paid hundreds of billions of dollars in reparations. In German schools after WW2 they showed little German kids pictures of mass burials and told them "it's your fault". Just do a test experiment almost anywhere in the world go out and ask 100 people about 5 dictators and the one that will get an automatic emotional response is Hitler

They use the holocaust as an excuse to steal land. Or at least they do it enough to where this accusation can be agreed upon by many. This is one of the biggest issues with the current day Israelis is that they are both victims and oppressors at the same time. I don't think the Nazis needed "mental safe spaces" as they were carrying out their genocide 

29 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

I suppose my question is this - what does a post-Zionist world actually look like? Is it a two-state solution? A one-state solution? Going back to the status quo before 2023? The expulsion of all Jews in the region? If you genuinely believe it’s the last one (which I don’t think you should), too many Israelis will feel like they’re receiving a second Holocaust, no matter how much you try to tell them they’re to blame.
 

I said before I think a good solution would be if the Israelis voluntarily left since they want to live out Western values which are incompatible with the region. Behind that I am in favor of a non violent approach to a one state solution. At that point it would become Palestine will a Jewish minority just like it has always been. The only successful Palestine was under this model. Obviously they will have to renunciate Zionism just like the Germans had to renunciate Nazism. Zionism is a racist and violent ideology 

29 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

If you can’t genuinely answer these questions, then the causes of Israeli aggression will continue. 
 

Does Israel get disbanded? Does the region become a dual-ethnic state governed by both Muslims and Jews? How does that look like? Would Palestinians even want to live next to their oppressors after everything they’ve been through? 
 

I think since it's a democracy then it would be governed by the majority which are Palestinians. Plus I think the entire country will go under the umbrella of the Gulf and they will run it how they see fit in accordance with the rest of the region. The money will come from the Gulf too since at that point America will stop paying for the Jews and the Palestinians will need rebuilding. Everyone will be forced to live side by side and the Israelis that are too resentful of losing the Jewish state will get passports elsewhere because they won't be able to fight the momentum

29 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

Make no mistake, I’m not arguing for any one vision in particular. I’m just saying, the post-conflict world in Israel/Palestine is something far too many progressives have yet failed to address, leading to knee-jerk reactions instead.

The ending is already written in stone imo. Just the events leading up to that will be random but everyone knows how this ends. Anyone advocating for forcible ethnic cleansing of either side is violent. Anyone suggesting a two state solution for anything less than a stepping stone to a one state is just misinformed or nefarious. One state

[Apparition of Jack]

20 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

I hear you but I am personally just not buying it. The holocaust is already etched into everybody's mind at a young age through school, movies, and word of mouth. Hitler is already more evil than other 20th century dictators who killed far more people. Nobody cares about the other hundreds of millions of people who died in WW2. You can get arrested in EU for praising Hitler. Germany has paid hundreds of billions of dollars in reparations. In German schools after WW2 they showed little German kids pictures of mass burials and told them "it's your fault". Just do a test experiment almost anywhere in the world go out and ask 100 people about 5 dictators and the one that will get an automatic emotional response is Hitler

They use the holocaust as an excuse to steal land. Or at least they do it enough to where this accusation can be agreed upon by many. This is one of the biggest issues with the current day Israelis is that they are both victims and oppressors at the same time. I don't think the Nazis needed "mental safe spaces" as they were carrying out their genocide 

I said before I think a good solution would be if the Israelis voluntarily left since they want to live out Western values which are incompatible with the region. Behind that I am in favor of a non violent approach to a one state solution. At that point it would become Palestine will a Jewish minority just like it has always been. The only successful Palestine was under this model. Obviously they will have to renunciate Zionism just like the Germans had to renunciate Nazism. Zionism is a racist and violent ideology 

I think since it's a democracy then it would be governed by the majority which are Palestinians. Plus I think the entire country will go under the umbrella of the Gulf and they will run it how they see fit in accordance with the rest of the region. The money will come from the Gulf too since at that point America will stop paying for the Jews and the Palestinians will need rebuilding. Everyone will be forced to live side by side and the Israelis that are too resentful of losing the Jewish state will get passports elsewhere because they won't be able to fight the momentum

The ending is already written in stone imo. Just the events leading up to that will be random but everyone knows how this ends. Anyone advocating for forcible ethnic cleansing of either side is violent. Anyone suggesting a two state solution for anything less than a stepping stone to a one state is just misinformed or nefarious. One state

How do you convince Israelis to hand over most of their political power to people they’ve seen as enemies for nearly a century now? How do you convince Palestinians to not engage in revenge violence at the people they see as their oppressors, guilty or not? 
 

The tensions in the Levant region as it stands are so great that any attempt to integrate the two cultures would only end in bloodshed (as we’re currently seeing, actually.)

How do you get a Westernised Israeli and an impoverished Palestinian to live side-by-side without wanting to kill each other? I’m not saying it can’t be done, I’m saying it will require incredibly levels of nuance, forethought and grace, that currently neither Israelis nor Palestinians are prepared to engage in.

Edited May 27 by Apparition of Jack

[Twentyfirst]

1 hour ago, Apparition of Jack said:

How do you convince Israelis to hand over most of their political power to people they’ve seen as enemies for nearly a century now? How do you convince Palestinians to not engage in revenge violence at the people they see as their oppressors, guilty or not? 
 

That's what the conflict is all about. They will fight it out and someone will win

1 hour ago, Apparition of Jack said:

The tensions in the Levant region as it stands are so great that any attempt to integrate the two cultures would only end in bloodshed (as we’re currently seeing, actually.)

Only one culture, Israel, needs integration, the other is already integrated 

1 hour ago, Apparition of Jack said:

How do you get a Westernised Israeli and an impoverished Palestinian to live side-by-side without wanting to kill each other? I’m not saying it can’t be done, I’m saying it will require incredibly levels of nuance, forethought and grace, that currently neither Israelis nor Palestinians are prepared to engage in.

Money equals peace and peace equals money I guess. Future prosperity is a good vision. The region is extremely rich in resources and location. The entire fighting is senseless since there was never any problems between the two before. Once sense comes back there should be a path to move forward 

[hundreth]

You can't convince us there won't be another Holocaust and as Leo said, we want our land. The entire religion is about the land of Israel. It isn't just about the Holocaust. You will never shake Jews off the land of Israel and they will literally fight to the death over it.

Just being honest.

I'm not even religious. I'm still pro Israel and even if I'm ashamed of things we've done I believe in the nation of Israel.

Now, if you want to actually make progress you can focus on productive improvements. If you want to play the blame and demonization game, Jews and Israelis will fight back and turn further away from you.

At that point, you can choose to bet against us and hope the international community excludes us and what... results in the elimination of the Jewish state? Good luck with that.

On the other hand, you can work with the more reasonable Jews and Israelis, remove Bibi and the far right, start looking towards ways to bring about a 2 state solution and help the Palestinians. I think you will find tons of us who are onboard. We don't want the war.

[Twentyfirst]

32 minutes ago, hundreth said:

You can't convince us there won't be another Holocaust and as Leo said, we want our land. The entire religion is about the land of Israel. It isn't just about the Holocaust. You will never shake Jews off the land of Israel and they will literally fight to the death over it.

Just being honest.

I'm not even religious. I'm still pro Israel and even if I'm ashamed of things we've done I believe in the nation of Israel.

Now, if you want to actually make progress you can focus on productive improvements. If you want to play the blame and demonization game, Jews and Israelis will fight back and turn further away from you.

At that point, you can choose to bet against us and hope the international community excludes us and what... results in the elimination of the Jewish state? Good luck with that.

On the other hand, you can work with the more reasonable Jews and Israelis, remove Bibi and the far right, start looking towards ways to bring about a 2 state solution and help the Palestinians. I think you will find tons of us who are onboard. We don't want the war.

You won't fight to the death over it. If America pulls out you will run away. You can't handle 20 months of bombs. Especially for land you are not native to. It's just another Zionist propaganda to say that the Israelis will fight to the death. Meanwhile there is so much artificial support that if you took it away and equalized it there is no way the Israelis would stick around. It's easy to fight to the death when you have tanks, guns, and the biggest superpower in the world behind you vs a 10 year old girl with rocks. You will kill for the land, just like any colonizer would, but you won't die for it

The holocaust isn't the reason there is a problem. It's Zionism. The Balfour Declaration was decades before the Holocaust even occurred 

Even if they remove Bibi and do a 2 state solution. People like you will still have to acknowledge all the crimes, acknowledge your grandparents are from EU, acknowledge that there is an indigenous population with more claim to the land, apologize etc etc. Without this acknowledgment you will never fully integrate into the region (Gulf money) and you will be like a southerner in USA shouting "the south will rise again" with nobody around to listen. You can't say you want a 2 state solution and also say you want to remain a hardcore religious racist that gets his worldview from a terrorist faction of Judaism 

Edited May 27 by Twentyfirst

[hundreth]

30 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

You won't fight to the death over it. If America pulls out you will run away. You can't handle 20 months of bombs. Especially for land you are not native to. It's just another Zionist propaganda to say that the Israelis will fight to the death. Meanwhile there is so much artificial support that if you took it away and equalized it there is no way the Israelis would stick around. It's easy to fight to the death when you have tanks, guns, and the biggest superpower in the world behind you vs a 10 year old girl with rocks. You will kill for the land, just like any colonizer would, but you won't die for it

You are blind. The reason America is behind us is because we are fighting to the death for it. And if America left, we would still fight to the death and find another way. You vastly underestimate the Jews and their connection to Israel. This is your greatest misunderstanding. 

 

Quote

The holocaust isn't the reason there is a problem. It's Zionism. The Balfour Declaration was decades before the Holocaust even occurred 

Even if they remove Bibi and do a 2 state solution. People like you will still have to acknowledge all the crimes, acknowledge your grandparents are from EU, acknowledge that there is an indigenous population with more claim to the land, apologize etc etc. Without this acknowledgment you will never fully integrate into the region (Gulf money) and you will be like a southerner in USA shouting "the south will rise again" with nobody around to listen. You can't say you want a 2 state solution and also say you want to remain a hardcore religious racist that gets his worldview from a terrorist faction of Judaism 

I never claimed the holocaust was the biggest cause, in fact I said otherwise. 

Perhaps we will have to acknowledge everything, but you can't put the cart before the horse. First there needs to be peace and healing. Not the other way around.

[Twentyfirst]

29 minutes ago, hundreth said:

You are blind. The reason America is behind us is because we are fighting to the death for it. And if America left, we would still fight to the death and find another way. You vastly underestimate the Jews and their connection to Israel. This is your greatest misunderstanding. 

I know the Jews are resilient. But for a stateless people of such small population the Jews are resilient because they know how to sway large powers, today it's the US

You won't fight to the death. That's delusion

29 minutes ago, hundreth said:

I never claimed the holocaust was the biggest cause, in fact I said otherwise. 

Well you said you won't be convinced that another holocaust won't happen. Hey, get it over man. You people are not that special. Nobody is thinking about you that much

If it's really the religious thing just know that is a common practice of colonizers. Why do you think in Islam you aren't allowed to have pictures of the prophet? Because people like you use religion to steal. White colonizers would have a picture of Jesus with a white appearance, even though Jesus is middle eastern, and they would trick gullible colored people into thinking that they were closer to god than they were therefore they were higher beings. I mean it sounds so pretty, we were here then we were exiled and now we return, really it sounds beautiful. But it's bullshit and it's illegal, you can't legally claim land that way 

29 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Perhaps we will have to acknowledge everything, but you can't put the cart before the horse. First there needs to be peace and healing. Not the other way around.

You zionists always talk about peace and healing as you are burning people alive. Just let go of everything you learned from the zionists. It won't help anything and it won't help you. Stop being jealous of Palestinians who god gave land to and resentful that god made your people stateless. That birthright envy causes you to dehumanize them and want to steal what is rightfully theirs rather than just make trade and deals with them. Offer what you have to them and they will offer what you want (land) to you, this is how peaceful and healed societies operate. Same goes for all the colonizers...if the EU wants gold from Africa they can make barter like everyone else. Why make it difficult other than because you are envious?

That's all it takes man

[Basman]

The Israel-Palestine war is not about preventing ethnic cleansing (in of itself though it is part of the war as a consequence) but about territory and ideological conviction over who rightfully owns that territory. There won't be an end to the conflict unless Israel first relents its territorial ambitions.

It's also my impression that Jews overall live very successful lives in Western countries, so I don't see much merit to the notion that there is a necessity for their own country or that they have an inherent right to any kind of land simply due to their religious affiliation. That is not an argument for that Israel shouldn't exist by the way. We should recognize that the creation of Israel was first and foremost an ideological conception of Zionism.

[Apparition of Jack]

4 hours ago, Basman said:

We should recognize that the creation of Israel was first and foremost an ideological conception of Zionism.

Yes, which was only accomplished after the Holocaust and Jews around the world were so desperate for their “own” piece of land that they’d be willing to set it up surrounded by impoverished Muslim countries. Zionism has existed since the mid-1800s, yet Israel was only declared in 1948. What happened between those times that could’ve impelled millions of Jews to rapidly settle in a small strip of land in the Middle East I wonder? 
 

Israel only exists because of the Holocaust. Had it never happened, it would’ve never been created. The whole thing exists so Jews can feel like they’re not at the mercy of Germans, or Russians, or Brits, or whoever else.

Edited May 28 by Apparition of Jack

[Twentyfirst]

1 hour ago, Apparition of Jack said:

Yes, which was only accomplished after the Holocaust and Jews around the world were so desperate for their “own” piece of land that they’d be willing to set it up surrounded by impoverished Muslim countries. Zionism has existed since the mid-1800s, yet Israel was only declared in 1948. What happened between those times that could’ve impelled millions of Jews to rapidly settle in a small strip of land in the Middle East I wonder? 
 

Israel only exists because of the Holocaust. Had it never happened, it would’ve never been created. The whole thing exists so Jews can feel like they’re not at the mercy of Germans, or Russians, or Brits, or whoever else.

So you think Arabs who never took place in the holocaust should promise Jews that there will never be another holocaust or else the Jews will kill the Arabs

What if the Arabs promise the Jews there won't be another holocaust but Europe alone does another holocaust? Is that the Arabs breaking their promise?

[Apparition of Jack]

14 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

So you think Arabs who never took place in the holocaust should promise Jews that there will never be another holocaust or else the Jews will kill the Arabs

What if the Arabs promise the Jews there won't be another holocaust but Europe alone does another holocaust? Is that the Arabs breaking their promise?

This is what I’m saying. Jewish paranoia runs deep. I’m going to be very honest - in many ways, I believe the best Arab response to the conflict (other than advocating for their own sovereignty) would be to find it within themselves to forgive Israelis for what they’ve done and work within legitimate frameworks to advocate for a one-state solution. 
 

Could such a thing be possible? Could the some of the most oppressed, traumatised, marginalised people on earth find it within themselves to forgive the very same people who are directly responsible for their suffering? Who have stolen their land, their houses, and in too many cases their lives? 
 

I understand the difficulty of such a situation. If I was Palestinian I don’t know if I would be up for it (especially considering what’s going on as we speak in Gaza.) But, to me, the only other option is just further endless bloodshed, which seems to be the way things are going.

 

And keep in mind, I’m not any easier on the Israelis too. Israel will have to answer for a LOT of the needless suffering, oppression, torture, death, displacements, etc they’ve inflicted on the Palestinian people. They will have to wrestle with the violence they’ve caused and how unjust it’s all been.

 Basically I see the whole situation as a common test of forgiveness and good-will. Can Jews and Arabs ever truly live side by side without conflict? Can they ever learn to forgive each other and see the common humanity within them? That’s genuinely the only way this situation gets resolved peacefully.

It’s how India got its independence without a major violent uprising. It’s how South Africa broke apartheid without descending to civil war. 
 

The only other “solutions” to this conflict, it we were being honest with ourselves, would be complete ethnic cleansing of Palestinians at the hands of Israel, or the complete ethnic cleansing of Israeli at the hands of Hamas etc. I don’t think I have to tell you why neither of these are favourable, especially in a world that has supposedly moved on from the catastrophic ethnic cleansings of the 20th century.

[Leo Gura]

The key thing to understand is that it's not about fairness or morality, it's about power.

If you think the world works based on morality the world will never make sense to you and you will fail at predicting the future.

Edited May 28 by Leo Gura

[Basman]

I'm not convinced that Jewish paranoia isn't primarily ideological first and foremost and what genocidal hatred does exist and is aimed at them today is due to their own ethnic cleansing and terroristic acts. The Jews aren't at serious risk of being ethnically cleansed in the modern world. It's just winging at best, justifying barbarism at worst.

[Twentyfirst]

I looked up hard vs soft power on google AI

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The key thing to understand is that it's not about fairness or morality, it's about power.

If you think the world works based on morality the world will never make sense to you and you will fail at predicting the future.

Soft power and hard power are distinct approaches to influencing international relations. Hard power relies on coercive measures like military force or economic sanctions, while soft power involves persuasion and attraction through cultural influence, values, and policies. Soft power aims to co-opt others to share one's agenda, whereas hard power compels them through costs and benefits. 

 

Hard Power:

Definition:

Hard power uses coercion and/or payment to achieve goals. It relies on military force, economic sanctions, and other forms of pressure. 

Examples:

Military intervention, trade embargoes, and economic aid tied to policy compliance. 

Advantages:

Can achieve quick results and enforce compliance. 

Disadvantages:

Can lead to resentment and backlash, damaging relationships and potentially leading to unintended consequences. 

Soft Power:

Definition:

Soft power is the ability to attract and persuade others to share one's values and objectives through cultural influence, political values, and foreign policy. 

Examples:

Cultural exchange programs, educational initiatives, international organizations, and promoting democratic values. 

Advantages:

Builds long-term relationships and fosters mutual understanding and cooperation. 

Disadvantages:

Can be slower to produce results and may not be effective if values are not shared or perceived negatively. 

 

Key Differences:

Approach

Hard Power: Coercion, threats, incentives

Soft Power: Attraction, persuasion, influence

Focus

Hard Power: Immediate results, compliance

Soft Power: Long-term relationships, shared values

Mechanism

Hard power: Force, economic leverage

Soft Power: Culture, values, foreign policy

Examples

Hard Power: Military intervention, sanctions

Soft Power: Cultural exchange, diplomatic efforts

 

In essence: Hard power is about getting others to do what you want through force or payment, while soft power is about getting them to want what you want. A successful foreign policy often requires a balanced approach, using both hard and soft power strategically. 

Edited May 28 by Twentyfirst

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Basman said:

The Jews aren't at serious risk of being ethnically cleansed in the modern world.

Whether they are or aren't, they certainly believe they are.

Don't underestimate how deep their collective trauma & paranoia goes.

Every time some Arab terrorist speaks of wiping Israel off the map, they literally perceive that as Hitler 2.0 and react accordingly. That's how their entire military intelligence operates.

The reason Israel is killing so many civilians is because they believe they are fighting to stop Hitler 2.0, so from their POV the civilian deaths appear reasonable. They truly believe all this conflict is just anti-semitism and that they did nothing to cause it.

The Hitler/Holocaust analogy is very convenient for Zionists because is makes them feel like violence is being done to them for no reason other than their race.

Edited May 28 by Leo Gura

[raiden]

The irony is we have so much genetic and historical proof that it’s the ethnic Judeans that are the ones getting bombs dropped on them by ethnic Europeans who call themselves the real natives 

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, raiden said:

The irony is we have so much genetic and historical proof that it’s the ethnic Judeans that are the ones getting bombs dropped on them by ethnic Europeans who call themselves the real natives 

It's never been about genetics. It's about cultural identity.

What does it mean to be American? Obviously it's not genetic.

Being a Jew is a culture. That culture wants to be on its mythologized homeland.

Edited May 28 by Leo Gura

[raiden]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's never been about genetics. It's about cultural identity.

What does it mean to be American? Obviously it's not genetic.

Being a Jew is a culture.

Part of the culture though is the story they tell themselves of who they are and where they come from. They’re the ones who make it relevant