How do you cope with man-children?

[Alexop]

8 hours ago, Emerald said:

Men in every era on back and back for thousands of years have said the same thing you're saying now about the current generation of men being uniquely un-Masculine.

I was once reading some quotes from centuries and millennia ago that had the same sentiments as you're sharing now.

But it's not true. 

It's just like how old people always think the young people are uniquely immature and ill-equipped to handle the world. It's a perennial human pattern.

The same is true for the Masculinity crisis. It's a perennial feature of the human species.

Men are often conditioned to believe in an exaggerated sense of "what Masculinity is supposed to be". And none of those expectations are realistic.

So, of course "Masculinity is in crisis" because the vast majority of men can't come anywhere close to meeting such unrealistic expectations.

It would be the same as every woman believing that she is required to be a super model in order to call herself a "true woman".

And then, she'd look at the world and lament, "Back in the olden days, all women used to be super models with a perfect face and hourglass figure." and "Femininity is in crisis because women are uglier than the women in their great grandma's generation... and women keep getting uglier and uglier."

And then, they point out some random trans man or lesbian woman and blame the problem on them for making the Femininity crisis happen.

That's how unrealistic the Masculinity crisis guys sound to me.

People are always thinking things are going to Hell in a hand basket in general.

And one of the biggest pearl-clutches is "Oh heavens! Masculinity is under attack! Why can't we go back to a time when men were men?" 

I appreciate your efforts to convince me but I don't think a society, not a tribe, was experiencing femininity as our Western countries. It never was like this, they were all patriarchal. They had to be in order not to collapse because of the harsh social and geo-political environment they lived in.

You tell me we do not have a masculinity crisis makes me even more concerned. A mature woman who teaches personal development cannot see this? Concerning.

You tell me that when thousands of women complain about men they are just being unreasonable and hysterical? I lived in both patriarchal and progressive countries and the same shit is seen. Women who just "cope" with men's laziness, immaturity, lack of understanding of how women work, lack of leadership, very boring etc. 

Maybe you referred to toxic masculinity, that we have in loads, there is no scarcity of toxic masculinity. And this comes from a guy who shit a lot on woke narratives.

This is what I mean by treating People like children. Do not assume that they are open to talk anything. Imagine opening this conversation with a stranger and disagreeing. Nobody wins. I get called misandrist,sexist or whatever "ist" or even dumb and they do not learn anything. Most people are "children" because they cannot dettach their personal involvement from a conversation. An counter-argument to them is a personal attack.

 

Edited May 27 by Alexop

[Alexop]

On 5/26/2025 at 5:56 PM, Aaron p said:

Everyone has a dark side, there are only people who have embraced it (at least to a degree) and people who do not (like Christians).

I've seen that people who haven't embraced their darkness much have less control when it comes out (which is inevitable in this world) meaning that Christians and people who are very very "nice" (especially males) can actually be super dangerous. 

Being developed includes meeting your own dark side and befriending it. Haven't got to watch the video fully yet but that's a powerful title. Society has so much to learn (or apply) from psychology.

It starts to crystallize in my head how to behave with these "nice" retards.

At least I am mean in your face when I am mean, but they are mean in an insidious sneaky way. Even with their children! God forbid to have such a dad. Just image how much anxiety is instilled in the child with thier passive aggressive comments and behaviours. "My dear you can do whatever you want, you can stay home or you can visit your grandparents, but you know how much they love you and want to meet you"

They are the most toxic people you can have around. At least machos are mean in your face not like in gaslighting passive aggressive way. 

They gather together and make you feel to be the problem in the group. They use your need for connection as a weapon to put themselves over you. "Want love from us, be like us"

When i meet a passionate exclusive guy like me who knows stuff and dares to say stuff even if risking to create conflict, I get inspired. But when they meet such a guy they get offended and jealous. They try to knock him down. 

My conclusion from all this thread: Deal with them politely from a distance. They will come into your life as clients, colleagues in activities, friends of your friends/spouse etc. keep your boundaries when they try to gaslight you into doubting your divine masculine. Keep them at an arm's length, and if they insist with their crap, confront them directly. POWER is the word in those situations. Don't lose confidence and keep them in their place, which is at the bottom of the present group's social hierarchy. Don't hang around in groups where they are in majority. You can get inflicted with "niceness" in the same way you pick an accent, you just wake up with it.

 

 

Edited May 27 by Alexop

[Nemra]

12 minutes ago, Alexop said:

"My dear you can do whatever you want, you can stay home or you can visit your grandparents, but you know how much they love you and want to meet you"

[Alexop]

On 5/26/2025 at 6:03 PM, EternalForest said:

Meh, I disagree. In my experience, I find men to be very mature. Then again, I'm in the USA but still I never understood where the whole "girls are more mature" thing comes from.

Also @Alexop that Teal Swan video is toxic as fuck, I'm sorry. That mindset is everything that's wrong with society. Like Osho said, the problem is people think kindness is fake and hate is real, it's all backward.

Besides, I'd rather an asshole be "fake nice" because that's better for society and ultimately at that point they're only fooling themselves, the world still benefits.

Bullshit

[Emerald]

19 hours ago, Breathe said:

Would you say that you or your female friends are attracted to men who have traditionally masculine traits? I'm curious if ego ever plays a role in your attraction to whoever you might be attracted to.

I'm talking right out of the gate, before you get to know a person.

I'm attracted to beautiful women, but I'd rather have a fairly cute woman who's intelligent and self-aware than a hottie with no brains. But I can be deceived. That initial attraction can be blinding.

For me, I need to have a deeper connection to feel an attraction that's intense enough to want to pursue. So, I'm not the best person to ask, as every guy is pretty neutral to me until deeper feelings set in.

But what I would say is that I'm attracted to a guy's personality. And it is through the appreciation of his personality that I come to appreciate his Masculine energy... not the other way around.

And the subtle innate Masculinity that's there isn't something that needs to be learned. It's just there in the form that it takes.

The main thing is to work on yourself to subtract the barriers. But Masculinity cannot be added nor taken away, as is a core subtle essences of one's personality. But it can either be embraced or suppressed... and if suppressed, it creates lots of neuroses and insecurities.

And it tends to be when guys feel like they need to match up to some kind of standard of Masculinity that they suppress their natural Masculinity because they see it as insufficient.

And that creates a dynamic where the guy gets really up in his head and ideological and neurotic in his attempts to be Masculine.

[Emerald]

16 hours ago, Alexop said:

You tell me that when thousands of women complain about men they are just being unreasonable and hysterical? I lived in both patriarchal and progressive countries and the same shit is seen. Women who just "cope" with men's laziness, immaturity, lack of understanding of how women work, lack of leadership, very boring etc. 

Most of the complaints that I hear women making about men are that men are being brainwashed by garbage perspectives about what Masculinity is, en masse.

And it's the guys who are the most obsessed with "being Masculine", that tend to have the problem behaviors that you've described.

I haven't even seen gaggles of "woke guys" having the issues you describe. In fact, I haven't seen gaggles of "woke guys" even identifying as such and banding together.

You just have relatively secure guys that don't think about Masculinity very much who are just being themselves.... and then you have a bunch of guys who are all trying to be the "Manly Man" to secure the approval of other "Manly Men."

And the guys in the latter group are either able to be proximal to the standard of Masculinity or are not able to do so. And the guys who are not able to do so, come across as insecure.

But even guys who can ape Masculinity well enough to pass in the eyes of other men, are still operating from a place of insecurity and not being enough as they are.

Even the notion of the "soy boy" is just a talking point to keep men chained to immature and unrealistic definitions of Masculinity... so as to avoid being seen as Feminine or weak in the eyes of other men.

But the things that men value about men are very different from the things that women value about men.

If you ask a man to point out who he thinks is the most attractive man in women's eyes, he'll pick out a guy like the top image.

If you ask a woman what they find attractive, answers will vary because women's taste in men vary.

But if we're going purely off of physical features and level of Masculinity, a plurality of women will probably go for a guy that looks like the average Hollywood guy, like Ryan Gosling or others who have a similar face and body structure to him, where there's a mixture between Masculine features and softer features.

[EternalForest]

6 hours ago, Alexop said:

Bullshit

If "bullshit" is your only response to someone who disagrees with your sentiment, then you didn't actually start this thread with the intention of having a real conversation.

[Alexop]

@Emerald ok, thanks for the conversation, it seems we live in different realities. You tell me Leo, Teal Swan, David Deida, Ken Wilber my personal experience for years etc. all of us are wrong.

Good look living in your fantasy world. I give up trying to convince emotional people about inconvenient truths. Doesn't matter how good the argument, it always hits an emotional wall. And here is the proof for why we treat you like children.

[Emerald]

18 minutes ago, Alexop said:

@Emerald ok, thanks for the conversation, it seems we live in different realities. You tell me Leo, Teal Swan, David Deida, Ken Wilber my personal experience for years etc. all of us are wrong.

Good look living in your fantasy world. I give up trying to convince emotional people about inconvenient truths. Doesn't matter how good the argument, it always hits an emotional wall. And here is the proof for why we treat you like children.

The algorithms must have been listening to my post earlier, as I was just recommended a video about what men appreciate about men and what women appreciate about men, appearance-wise and Masculinity-wise.

And our conversation is exactly a reflection of this dissonance between what women like... and what men think that women like.

 

[Alexop]

Very interesting one. 

 

[Alexop]

46 minutes ago, Emerald said:

The algorithms must have been listening to my post earlier, as I was just recommended a video about what men appreciate about men and what women appreciate about men, appearance-wise and Masculinity-wise.

And our conversation is exactly a reflection of this dissonance between what women like... and what men think that women like.

 

Me: X is Y because Z

You: well actually C is V because F

 

[BlueOak]

2 hours ago, Alexop said:

@Emerald it seems we live in different realities.

Everyone lives in different realities because reality is entirely constructed in your own mind by your senses, filtered through perceptions, and often identity; Represented to you by your beliefs, convictions, opinions, and patterns etc. Further than that its a reflection of you, though most people resist this because they resist themselves, and as mentioned elsewhere, something you'll probably agree with, people not wanting to take accountability or responsibility for their own lives.

 

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

And our conversation is exactly a reflection of this dissonance between what women like... and what men think that women like.

 

• What they say they want isn't always what they want. Often emotions can rise and fall, and its often the man's role to give them space for that, and at best, when you know them well, help them express or move through them when they want to. I enjoy a partner also helping me through emotional states, so I don't confine this to one gender. Because men are visual beings, we tend to picture this strength and stability as a well-muscled guy, but in reality, its better represented by internal order, empathy, and focus/discipline. - It's very helpful for a man to engage his body, it makes you feel stronger, gives you energy and confidence, which is then reflected in your interactions and externally.
   
• Nobody knows what women want as a collective, because if you interviewed 20 women and asked them, they'd all have different answers.

I would say both perspectives can be observed. Because I hear plenty of people say what @Alexop says, online mostly, not where I live. So there are obviously plenty of people who hold this view, and then I hear plenty of people say what you say, mostly online, addressing those online.

In my real life, people say things like:

• There is no loyalty anymore. (Both genders tell me that)
• They worry about their personality meaning people won't like them, when actually its their weight, for example. It's quite common to avoid addressing something by using a scapegoat, or just hiding behind it as a fear to go out and try.
• They've given up on relationships because too many failed, or they are happy in relationships because they found the right person.
• Or they come in beaming, happy because they are in love.

Its all temporal. None of it really extends past the next relationship, only whatever belief they carry with them, which they should drop because the next person could be entirely different. And give them entirely different negative/positive experiences. But I will say loyalty seems a harder thing to find these days in the younger generation, at least where I live they tell me that. That's a big factor hurting the birthrate right now, and contributing to family breakdown and thus the negation of positive gender roles. The lack of loyalty people express, and the ease of finding other partners, plus the wealth of choices at their disposal.

But again, should I hold that belief outside of where I live, probably not no.

*Economic pressures and modern society not prioritising family being other huge factors obviously.

Edited May 28 by BlueOak

[Alexop]

@BlueOak of course loyality is going to hell if all you see in your partner is social status or money or a hole where you need to stick you cock in. There are plenty of people with holes and plenty of people with money. 

If everything resumes to sticking your cock in a hole or using a person selfishly for personal survival then of course you'll jump to the person with a more sexy body or more money.

And this gender blind idiocy only supercharges this behaviour.

 

 

[Emerald]

8 hours ago, Alexop said:

Me: X is Y because Z

You: well actually C is V because F

You're saying that you don't consider this video to relate to our conversation?

You were saying that women are complaining about men not being Masculine enough in an earlier post.

And I said that women don't tend to complain about men's level of Masculinity, but about being brainwashed into terrible perspectives on Masculinity.

Then, I had made a point about how men tend to value hyper-Masculinity in men... but women don't value hyper-Masculinity that much.

And I gave the example of the picture of the manly man vs the picture of Ryan Gosling to show a dimension to where the male perception of what women like and what women actually like are often quite different.

Then, I got recommended a video on the same topic.

Point being... it's only men that are complaining that men aren't Masculine enough. Men are sufficiently Masculine in the eyes of most women.

But women can have other complaints about men en masse... like being brainwashed into all the Manosphere stuff.

[Alexop]

3 hours ago, Emerald said:

You're saying that you don't consider this video to relate to our conversation?

You were saying that women are complaining about men not being Masculine enough in an earlier post.

And I said that women don't tend to complain about men's level of Masculinity, but about being brainwashed into terrible perspectives on Masculinity.

Then, I had made a point about how men tend to value hyper-Masculinity in men... but women don't value hyper-Masculinity that much.

And I gave the example of the picture of the manly man vs the picture of Ryan Gosling to show a dimension to where the male perception of what women like and what women actually like are often quite different.

Then, I got recommended a video on the same topic.

Point being... it's only men that are complaining that men aren't Masculine enough. Men are sufficiently Masculine in the eyes of most women.

But women can have other complaints about men en masse... like being brainwashed into all the Manosphere stuff.

My friend, you pointed to toxic masculinity while I didn't. We have two big types of men in society:

Macho guys: toxic masculinity, manipulative behaviour, lack of empathy, laziness, suppressed feminine side, selfishness, violence, lack of refinement, lack of education, disgusting even(some of them). You referred to these guys here as "the masculine" ones, which I don't. These are a juvenile version of masculinity and women don't want that. Some of them are fun and confident and dare to lead which some women appreciate but they don't want the rest of the toxic qualities.

Nice guys: immature, boring as hell, afraid to lead, afraid to express their emotions and thoughts, etc etc... these are the guys who lack masculinity in any sense. Most women dislike these guys but they have no other options in sight so they choose them, because maybe they don't want to be beaten and bullied by machos. The thread is about THESE guys. Machos are so obviously toxic that I don't even care talking about them. 

Very few guys present a healthy version of masculinity which women want: discipline, personal development, style, leadership, empathy, kindness, courtesy, containment, humour, purpose, drive... I can't imagine an emotionally healthy straight feminine woman who will ever choose a nice guy over a mature, healthy masculine guy. Maybe only those women who were masively brainwashed into wokism or they have some trauma around being led by a man.(ex: daddy issues). THIS version of masculinity does NOT appear out of the blue as you might think. This appears when the young adolescent boy is either trained into it by a skilled masculine man, or he meets massive adversity which will forge him into such a man(this happened to me).

Teal explains clearly the difference between niceness and kindness

 

 

Edited May 28 by Alexop

[Emerald]

@Alexop I wasn't talking about the difference between toxic Masculinity and healthy Masculinity.

I was speaking to your notion of men not being Masculine enough... and how women's complaint is that men are not Masculine enough.

And I was saying that "lack of Masculinity" doesn't tend to be what women complain about with regards to men's behaviors, as women don't tend to value hyper-Masculinity in men in the way that men do.

[Joshe]

These notions of “what a man is supposed to be like” are all rooted in low consciousness. And that PyshHacks dude is a fuckwit. He does discuss interesting psychological dynamics, but unfortunately couches them in cringy egoic perspectives. To be expected I suppose since his target audience is a bunch of insecure men who are angry at women for not making them feel good.

The whole “alpha male” archetype exists for purpose of egoic pride, which is an attempt to compensate for one’s own perceived inferiority. See, you don’t fake or play superior, you either are or aren’t. Anyone getting ego juice by identifying as a superior alpha male is not superior. Lol. If I grant the term, true alpha males would shun the label, not embrace it, because the superior man would see such thinking as foolish. 

Edited May 29 by Joshe

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, Joshe said:

These notions of “what a man is supposed to be like” are all rooted in low consciousness. And that PyshHacks dude is a fuckwit. He does discuss interesting psychological dynamics, but unfortunately couches them in cringy egoic perspectives. To be expected I suppose since his target audience is a bunch of insecure men who are angry at women for not making them feel good.

The whole “alpha male” archetype exists for purpose of egoic pride, which is an attempt to compensate for one’s own perceived inferiority. See, you don’t fake or play superior, you either are or aren’t. Anyone getting ego juice by identifying as a superior alpha male is not superior. Lol. If I grant the term, true alpha males would shun the label, not embrace it, because the superior man would see such thinking as foolish. 

100%

All this obsession with Masculinity and the idea that "men aren't Masculine anymore" is just rooted in insecurity and a rejection of the value of "Be yourself" as they feel that that is not good enough.

And that on its own is human and wouldn't be so bad if it weren't causing so many problems in society.... and actively exacerbating the very issues with women that these guys are having.

And PsychHacks is definitely a hug box for insecure men. But anyone who takes that guy's perspectives seriously is just going to stay stuck in the same issues.

I've watched a few of his videos and his formula is basically, "Here's some advice for men to show them how empowered they are compared to women. And here's some advice for women to show them how disempowered they are compared to men and how everything is their fault and how they should settle for what they can get quickly before they lose out entirely because 'high quality guys won't settle for you'."

But of course, the intended target audience for the latter advice is not ACTUALLY for women at all.

It's just to make men feel validated, vindicated, empowered, and right so that they get to scapegoat women and avoid facing personal responsibility for their own romantic and social issues.

It's really well-encapsulated in the sentiment of blaming women's 'unreasonable standards' for the male loneliness epidemic. All blame and no personal responsibility.

[Alexop]

2 hours ago, Joshe said:

These notions of “what a man is supposed to be like” are all rooted in low consciousness. And that PyshHacks dude is a fuckwit. He does discuss interesting psychological dynamics, but unfortunately couches them in cringy egoic perspectives. To be expected I suppose since his target audience is a bunch of insecure men who are angry at women for not making them feel good.

The whole “alpha male” archetype exists for purpose of egoic pride, which is an attempt to compensate for one’s own perceived inferiority. See, you don’t fake or play superior, you either are or aren’t. Anyone getting ego juice by identifying as a superior alpha male is not superior. Lol. If I grant the term, true alpha males would shun the label, not embrace it, because the superior man would see such thinking as foolish. 

I was thinking the same thing as I watched more videos of his. Yea, I mean that survivor analogy, if it really is real, is quite interesting. Otherwise he is fishy

I mean he is a marketer and his audience is a bunch of incels. To be expected.

[Alexop]

9 hours ago, Emerald said:

@Alexop I wasn't talking about the difference between toxic Masculinity and healthy Masculinity.

I was speaking to your notion of men not being Masculine enough... and how women's complaint is that men are not Masculine enough.

And I was saying that "lack of Masculinity" doesn't tend to be what women complain about with regards to men's behaviors, as women don't tend to value hyper-Masculinity in men in the way that men do.

They won't say that "men are not masculine enough" as masculinity has become so debated that People can't agree anymore on what masculinity actually is.

They will say instead: men are boring, lack initiative, lack drive, lack charm, are lazy etc.

Edited May 29 by Alexop