Carnivore diet been doing great

[integral]

6 hours ago, ExploringReality said:

You guys, and girls please post what you eat, why you choose to eat it what ingredients you use and how it impacts and affects you and what are some differences that you've noticed with your body and your mind when switching to certain foods.

Yeah but that's not useful evidence for a vegan. "It's all self-deception".

[integral]

The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics says veganism is adequate for all life stages.”
This becomes an anchor, used to override any biological complexity you try to introduce.
But what’s lost is that these statements include caveats like “well-planned” and “with appropriate supplementation,” and they don’t mean everyone will thrive.

@Emerald This does not mean 99% people can be a vegan without health problems can you see this?

Can you see the specific mechanism you are doing which leaps Outside science?

A normal person will read that statement above and see it for what it is but a vegan will read it and think this proves 99% of the population can be a vegan without health problems!

Don't tell me about anecdotes of why you think people are quitting veganism,  if I'm not allowed using anecdotes neither are you. We are strictly talking about the science.

Edited May 20 by integral

[Someone here]

You can waste your whole life doing endless research on which diet is perfect and optimal for your health .point is..there is no such thing as perfect. You just have to wager or take a leap of faith to support what you resonate with .at times in the past I thought nothing is healthy other than fruits .but you know ..even fruits get genetically modified and they cover them with other polluting stuff and poisons. So you ain't gonna ever solve the proplem of which diet is the healthiest ..unless you become a breatherian but then you will die in few weeks. So stop obsession and take the gamble . Pick a diet that sounds good and go with it and shut up .

[Emerald]

3 hours ago, integral said:

Yeah but that's not useful evidence for a vegan. "It's all self-deception".

If you are trying to make claims about the overall health of a diet (or lack thereof), yes it is self-deception (or even just a misunderstanding of what constitutes viable evidence) to see personal anecdotes as an indication of what's true.

But @ExploringReality isn't making such claims. So, it's fine on that level.

The reason why I'm telling you that personal anecdotes aren't valid is because you keep making wild unfounded claims about plant-based diets that aren't backed up by anything other than personal anecdotes.

And you are cherry picking the personal anecdotes that already fit your own biases... as you could just as easily find personal anecdotes that support the opposite claims.

[Emerald]

2 hours ago, integral said:

The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics says veganism is adequate for all life stages.”
This becomes an anchor, used to override any biological complexity you try to introduce.
But what’s lost is that these statements include caveats like “well-planned” and “with appropriate supplementation,” and they don’t mean everyone will thrive.

@Emerald This does not mean 99% people can be a vegan without health problems can you see this?

Can you see the specific mechanism you are doing which leaps Outside science?

A normal person will read that statement above and see it for what it is but a vegan will read it and think this proves 99% of the population can be a vegan without health problems!

Don't tell me about anecdotes of why you think people are quitting veganism,  if I'm not allowed using anecdotes neither are you. We are strictly talking about the science.

I'm saying that, if your claim that "40% of people can never go Vegan without compromising their health" were true, these health organizations would not have the stances on Veganism that they do.

And beyond that, there would be ACTUAL data to back that up in studies.

But no such data exists. You're just pulling these really high numbers out of the air. 

Also, there is no such evidence that there even are people who exist who can't go Vegan. 

But despite the lack of evidence that there are people who can't go Vegan, I'm being charitable to your position and assuming that there are a few percentages of people who would struggle to go Vegan because they have certain conditions.

So, given my baseless charitability to your position, I would wager that it is possible that there are people who can't go Vegan but that they're a small minority.

But that is just a hypothesis, because there is no actual evidence that I'm aware of to your claim "some people can't go Vegan without compromising their health" at all.

[Salvijus]

19 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Also, there is no such evidence that there even are people who exist who can't go Vegan. 

I'm allergic to veganism. True story. 

Edited May 20 by Salvijus

[integral]

@Emerald

Why isn't something like this shown in WHO summaries?

Because:

• WHO makes population-level recommendations, not personalized ones. These are designed for broad public-health guidance not optimized for genetic, metabolic, or cultural diversity.
• Meta-analyses summarize group trends, which flatten out individual variation. You don’t see the bell curve you just see the average.
• Policy documents simplify for clarity. Nuance like this gets lost because it's harder to communicate in public health settings.

We are averaging...

--
I also did show you scientific evidence about malnutrition, you said you were going to look into it.

But for now please only respond and acknowledge you understand averages and diversity. 

2 hours ago, Emerald said:

And beyond that, there would be ACTUAL data to back that up in studies.

You have 0 data to back up 99% of the population will thrive on a vegans diet. You made that up. anecdotes? Also the science says people quite veganism because of health problems and low energy not that they were lazy or poorly planned. But I do agree that most people are poorly planning just not science. Science just shows data not interpretations. 

Edited May 20 by integral

[AION]

Emerald is fighting so hard in these vegan debates because she craves that meat. I just know. 

[Someone here]

Just now, AION said:

Emerald is fighting so hard in these vegan debates because she craves that meat. I just know. 

Quoted before you take it back .I'm faster than thunderbolts 

[AION]

The thing is that these deep inner dogmas keep our identity in place. When we start kicking at these dogmatic pillars our whole identity will tremble and that is what she is fearing. 

[Emerald]

This is tiring.

I'm clearly not going to be able to convince you guys that anecdotal evidence doesn't constitute valid evidence to the overall health of a diet or lack-there-of. (regardless of what the diet is)

I've already been clear that my reason for being Vegan is to stay in integrity with my own values because I don't see human pleasure and convenience as more important than the life and well-being of animals.

And if I were to keep eating animals for pleasure like I used to, I'd have to do a lot of hard-core lying to myself and mangling my epistemology and dampening the scope of my consciousness like you guys do to maintain that habit.

And I've already conveyed to you guys that there is no evidence that a Vegan diet leads to worse health outcomes compared to an omnivorous diet... and that reducing and eliminating animal products from your diet decreases the risk of heart disease and stroke, which are the number one killers.

And I've already conveyed that most people who make appeals to health as a way to invalidate Veganism are doing mental gymnastics because they don't want to face the facts of their real motivations... which is to continue eating animals for pleasure and to convince themselves that they're eating animals for health.

Take those facts or leave them. I don't want to keep reiterating the same facts at a brick wall.

If you want to argue with me, you can just reference this post... which contains the full extent of the claims that I'm making.

[Someone here]

@Emerald the primary reason for you not eating meat is who are us humans to kill animals?  I don't know but you sound smart and worth your salt enough to realize that every living creature has to die one way or another .

[integral]

24 minutes ago, Emerald said:

I'm clearly not going to be able to convince you guys that anecdotal evidence doesn't constitute valid evidence to the overall health of a diet or lack-there-of. (regardless of what the diet is)

I give you no anecdotes whatsoever just science what are you talking about?

24 minutes ago, Emerald said:

I've already been clear that my reason for being Vegan is to stay in integrity with my own values because I don't see human pleasure and convenience as more important than the life and well-being of animals.

Unscientific and should have no bearing on anything that we're discussing right now. human health

24 minutes ago, Emerald said:

And if I were to keep eating animals for pleasure like I used to, I'd have to do a lot of hard-core lying to myself and mangling my epistemology and dampening the scope of my consciousness like you guys do to maintain that habit.

This is literally what you were doing right now to justify your veganism.

24 minutes ago, Emerald said:

And I've already conveyed to you guys that there is no evidence that a Vegan diet leads to worse health outcomes compared to an omnivorous diet...

No you didn't, the science says vegan diet is better than the standard American diet

Mediterranean & Whole-food Omnivore Cohorts

7-Country & Greek-EPIC combined 1960-202040-60 y>20 kHigh Med-score ↓20-30 % all-cause mortality vs low score.

PREDIMED RCT (Spain) 2013 & 2021 follow-up4-5 y RCT + 6 y post-trial7447Olive-oil or nut Mediterranean diet ↓30 % major CVD events vs low-fat control; benefits persisted at 10 y.

NIH-AARP Diet & Health Study (U.S.) – 1995-201116 y400 kHigh Mediterranean-score ↓17 % CVD mortality and ↓12 % cancer mortality.

24 minutes ago, Emerald said:

And I've already conveyed that most people who make appeals to health as a way to invalidate Veganism are doing mental gymnastics because they don't want to face the facts of their real motivations... which is to continue eating animals for pleasure and to convince themselves that they're eating animals for health.

Wrong, I've been vegan for 2 years, I did carnivore for a year and a half, ate Mediterranean for 3 years, I even ate bagels for a whole year, +Thousands of dollars of experimentation, testing, drugs and supplements.

You're the one that lacks effort and are following ideals.

24 minutes ago, Emerald said:

If you want to argue with me, you can just reference this post... which contains the full extent of the claims that I'm making.

I explained how averages work you didn't respond. 

You also claim the 99% of people can do veganism, Show me that science immediately right now.

Edited May 20 by integral

[Emerald]

4 minutes ago, Someone here said:

@Emerald the primary reason for you not eating meat is who are us humans to kill animals?  I don't know but you sound smart and worth your salt enough to realize that every living creature has to die one way or another .

I'd rather them die of old age and in a manner that has nothing to do with my personal choices or my own exploitative actions.

The reason I don't eat animals or animal products is because I disagree with the practice of eating animals for pleasure.

[AION]

Saying people eat meat for their pleasure sounds so kinky. I never looked at eating meat that way. I just eat it because my biology requires it. 

Edited May 20 by AION

[Someone here]

12 minutes ago, Emerald said:

I'd rather them die of old age and in a manner that has nothing to do with my personal choices or my own exploitative actions.

But what difference does it make ? Millions of cows and sheeps and chickens are being slaughtered right now as we are talking.. What is one person's refraining from consuming the outcome of this mass slaughter is going to change in the grand scheme of things ? 

Do you know that a lion MUST eat meat daily otherwise he dies ? If God or nature or whatever the fuck "THIS " is is sadistic then you are actually interrupting God's work by not indulging in the slaughter party.

12 minutes ago, Emerald said:

The reason I don't eat animals or animal products is because I disagree with the practice of eating animals for pleasure.

"Pleasure "?You mean eating meat because its delicious? 

[Jannes]

19 minutes ago, Someone here said:

@Emerald the primary reason for you not eating meat is who are us humans to kill animals?  I don't know but you sound smart and worth your salt enough to realize that every living creature has to die one way or another .

Would you be fine if certain humans were raised for meat consumption and killed at a young age for tender meat?

And its not just the killing part, its about creating an environement full of suffering and myserie for these animals in factory farms and all the environement and life you destry to grow crops to feed these animals.

[Emerald]

@integral The whole reason we've even gotten into the scientific argument in general is because you were trying to use scientific arguments to invalidate Veganism as a diet and as a practice, so that you can defend your own choices to yourself.

The whole crux of my argument is, "People use tons of rationalizations to invalidate Veganism because it helps them avoid their real motivations from themselves."

And "I'm not Vegan because Veganism is unhealthy" is just one of those rationalizations that people hide behind to avoid seeing their motivations that they would disagree with if they became conscious of them.

I didn't go Vegan for health reasons myself. I went Vegan to stay aligned with my own values because I disagree with the practice of eating animals for pleasure.

It's just a bonus that it comes with added health benefits and environmental benefits.

And the only reason why I'm arguing with the health claims in the first place is to show you that you're using a bunch of unsubstantiated health claims about Veganism in order to explain away your choices, so that you don't have to acknowledge the fact that your consumption of animals doesn't have anything to do with health at all.

Either that, or you are genuinely mistaken and believe that the Vegan diet is unhealthy.

And if I can help you realize that this belief is unsubstantiated, then you can get more honest about your own motivations because you won't have the misconception that "Veganism is unhealthy" to hide behind.

And, the only thing scientific you've given me is a few studies that show that a high percentage of Vegans are deficient in a particular nutrient.

And if you were making the claim that "x% of Vegans tend to be deficient in ___ nutrient.", then that wouldn't be an issue.

But you're making wild unsubstantiated claims like...

"40% of people can't go Vegan because their health would deteriorate."

"The Vegan diet is unhealthy and unsustainable for most people."

"You can't meet all of your nutritional needs on a Vegan diet, even with supplementation."

"Supplementation doesn't help with nutrient deficiencies."

And none of these claims are based in evidence.

And when I point this out, you accuse me of being ideological. But I just want you to see the truth that you're doing mental gymnastics with all these unsubstantiated health claims.

Just face with the real reason you're ACTUALLY eating animals without clinging to unsubstantiated claims around Veganism being unhealthy. And then, ask yourself, "Does this motivation align with my values?"

And since you've been Vegan before, it will be extra difficult for you to face the truth. And that's why you're trying so hard to justify your dietary choices to yourself by proxy of arguing with me.

[Emerald]

15 minutes ago, AION said:

Saying people eat meat for their pleasure sounds so kinky. I never looked at eating meat that way. I just eat it because my biology requires it. 

But your biology doesn't require meat.

I haven't eaten meat in 9 years. And I know people who've been lifelong Vegans and Vegetarians who were raised that way who have never eaten meat in their lives. 

So, the reality is that you DO eat meat for pleasure and convenience... even if you believe you eat it because you "require it."

And I disagree with the practice of eating meat for pleasure because it doesn't sit well with me.

[Someone here]

9 minutes ago, Jannes said:

Would you be fine if certain humans were raised for meat consumption and killed at a young age for tender meat?

So you are assuming that humans are superior to animals inherently?  Drop the relative level of arguing this moral point because its not gonna lead anywhere. Let's tackle this from the absolute perspective. From the absolute perspective everything is connected and all is one .doesn't matter humans eat animals ..animals eat humans ..or plants etc. Life eats itself then shits out itself from the other side and give birth to new baby versions of itself. All in a never ending closed cycle . I mean the biology of this is so obvious I don't need to explain it but do you grasp the existential ramifications going on here ?