What are the odds that you, an average dude, is Tier 2? Not very high.

[Elliott]

The guy burns more fuel than the entire state of vermont, to get rural rednecks pornhub. Green compassion alright.

Edited April 12 by Elliott

[Carl-Richard]

16 minutes ago, AION said:

Elon Musk was more SD yellow than SD green. He was actually in between in the twilight zone until regressive authoritarian policies of SD green pulled him back out of necessity. He still has the integral mind which is most important and I believe he will revise his political stance before the end. 

Notice what I've been asking in this thread: does Elon understand Yellow, or does he mascarade with a stereotyped, developmentally ungrounded, shallow understanding? And if Elon is capable of understanding Yellow, why not Ben Shapiro, Chris Langan, Jordan Peterson? And if these are not truly yellow, who is? Jordan Hall? Daniel Schmachtenberger? John Vervaeke? And why are they Yellow?

Edited April 12 by Carl-Richard

[Leo Gura]

31 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Which did not change, or did it?

He is doing it within an Orange framework, not a Yellow one.

Musk is after personal power. He has an authortarian leadership style which is not aligned with Yellow systemic thinking.

You guys keep confusing exploitation of systems with systems thinking. These are not at all the same thing.

Until Musk gives up his authoritarian leadership style I will not consider him Yellow. And he will never give it up.

Edited April 12 by Leo Gura

[Elliott]

13 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Notice what I've been asking in this thread: does Elon understand Yellow, or does he mascarade with a stereotyped, developmentally ungrounded, shallow version? And if Elon is capable of understanding Yellow

He doesn't, he's just a venture capitalist.

Quote

, why not Ben Shapiro

Would grow by learning about it.

Quote

, Chris Langan, Jordan Peterson?

Might be yellow. Peterson doesn't believe what he tries to get others to believe. He teaches what he does because he thinks that's the level society is at, he's pretty right, for the people that would listen to him.

Do you think all yellow people would agree on everything?

Edited April 12 by Elliott

[Leo Gura]

14 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Jordan Hall? Daniel Schmachtenberger? John Vervaeke? And why are they Yellow?

Yes, they are Yellow. Right-wingers are not Yellow.

They are Yellow because they are able to integrate many different paradigms in ways that no lower stage can. They are not stuck fighting other stages like how Jordan Peterson or Musk or Shapiro are.

This is very obvious. This is not a close call.

Edited April 12 by Leo Gura

[AION]

30 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Notice what I've been asking in this thread: does Elon understand Yellow, or does he mascarade with a stereotyped, developmentally ungrounded, shallow understanding? And if Elon is capable of understanding Yellow, why not Ben Shapiro, Chris Langan, Jordan Peterson? And if these are not truly yellow, who is? Jordan Hall? Daniel Schmachtenberger? John Vervaeke? And why are they Yellow?

It is not a question of understanding but a question of seeing. 
 

When Europeans came to the Americas the natives couldn’t recognize the pattern called a ship. 
 

This shows the remarkable ability of our brain. To be able to connect all the dots requires massive amounts of curiosity/libido which successful people like Shapiro don’t have because of their cozy position so they are not even looking for it. 
 

To be tier 2 you have to look for it with massive curiosity/libido. One can’t crawl through the eye of the needle by chance. 

Edited April 12 by AION

[aurum]

7 hours ago, BlueOak said:

Sure. 

This forum is a personal development forum, so by its nature there are proactive people here.
When people speak about tier 2, they are saying these people will change the world, or they will proactively fix things.

This isn't necessarily true of the wider population. Someone could still sit in a cave as what people call a tier 2 personality. I was agreeing with your point, and trying to add to it.

Gotcha. Yes that's a good point. They may be more inclined to see higher stages of development as about results, versus an academic psychology professor who is focused on cognitive function.

To be fair, I think Yellow as defined by the model is likely to be taking a lot of action to change the world. Yellow is still going to have a lot of that SJW programming from Green.

But once you start getting to Turquoise or even beyond, it gets very unclear to me what you can expect from that level of development. We're in getting into uncharted territory at that point.

In general, the main thing I want to emphasize is beware of your expectations of these higher stages. You probably have a lot of ambition if you're into personal development, and ALL the personal development teachers you have been consuming are pumping you with expectations of your development. Expectations of money, success, fame, health, relationships, spiritual powers etc. All the stuff you want.

Some of that is fine, but be careful. Because your development may not always line up with those expectations. And you will not understand why and keep resisting it.

[Nilsi]

13 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

"Choose your reductionist poison" - probably something Bernardo Kastrup has said. What he has actually said is that to explain something is to reduce it to something else. So it's all really reductionism. It's just some explanations are more reductionistic than others (e.g. explaining everything in terms of one thing, which is ironically what reducing everything to "differences" is ).

I’m not really in the mood to argue or defend myself - but I do feel some responsibility to clarify what I mean when I speak from Deleuze.

Deleuze isn’t “reducing everything to difference.” His concept of difference [di.fe.ʁɑ̃s] isn’t some abstract label you slap onto things. It’s an invitation - a kind of metaphysical tenderness - to encounter the world as something irreducibly strange, dynamic, and in excess of any concept or system we try to impose on it.

Difference, for him, isn’t just variation. It’s the very condition of reality unfolding on its own terms, without asking for our permission, our approval, or our categories. Yes, we inevitably reduce that complexity when we speak, think, or act - that’s the cost of being human. But there’s also another posture: not reduction, but reverence.

It’s not about coming to conclusions. It’s not about solving or fixing anything. It’s about cultivating a kind of useless presence - an ethics of perception, of staying with the unassimilable, of being touched by what resists us without needing to control it.

If there’s anything “practical” in Deleuze, it’s this:

to remain attuned to the singular, the inhuman, the unspeakably weird pulse of existence - and to let it shape us, rather than forcing it to fit.

In that sense, it’s not a theory. It’s a kind of empathic fidelity - to life, to others, to experience itself.

[Nilsi]

2 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Notice what I've been asking in this thread: does Elon understand Yellow, or does he mascarade with a stereotyped, developmentally ungrounded, shallow understanding? And if Elon is capable of understanding Yellow, why not Ben Shapiro, Chris Langan, Jordan Peterson? And if these are not truly yellow, who is? Jordan Hall? Daniel Schmachtenberger? John Vervaeke? And why are they Yellow?

I’ve had this discussion with Leo before, and honestly, I thought you’d be more aligned with him on this. If you take Spiral Dynamics as originally conceived by Beck and Cowan, it’s not primarily about cognitive complexity - it’s about memetic alignment, the value systems people operate from. That’s what Leo emphasized too: he situates himself in terms of memes, not abstract reasoning levels.

That’s why Beck can identify as “Blue” - not because he lacks Tier 2 thinking capacity, but because his core values, his orientation, his tribal belonging, are Blue. It’s a cultural stance, not a cognitive ceiling.

Wilber’s model is different. His version of integral theory focuses much more on perceived structural complexity, which is why the Integral crowd can end up calling all sorts of people “Yellow” - even those who are politically regressive or morally questionable. Because it’s not about what values they hold, but about how complex their mental models seem.

And that difference is underscored in Beck’s brilliant polemic where he accuses Wilber of being stage Red himself - not for his lack of thinking capacity, but for the sheer intellectual totalitarianism with which he tries to impose his system on the world.

Edited April 12 by Nilsi

[Nilsi]

6 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

I’ve had this discussion with Leo before, and honestly, I thought you’d be more aligned with him on this. If you take Spiral Dynamics as originally conceived by Beck and Cowan, it’s not primarily about cognitive complexity - it’s about memetic alignment, the value systems people operate from. That’s what Leo emphasized too: he situates himself in terms of memes, not abstract reasoning levels.

That’s why Beck can identify as “Blue” - not because he lacks Tier 2 thinking capacity, but because his core values, his orientation, his tribal belonging, are Blue. It’s a cultural stance, not a cognitive ceiling.

Wilber’s model is different. His version of integral theory focuses much more on perceived structural complexity, which is why the Integral crowd can end up calling all sorts of people “Yellow” - even those who are politically regressive or morally questionable. Because it’s not about what values they hold, but about how complex their mental models seem.

And that difference is underscored in Beck’s brilliant polemic where he accuses Wilber of being stage Red himself - not for his lack of thinking capacity, but for the sheer intellectual totalitarianism with which he tries to impose his system on the world.

I don’t even think Beck really treats Spiral Dynamics as a hierarchical stage theory. For him, it seems much more like a typology of value systems that co-exist, interact, and express themselves differently depending on context, stress, culture, and life conditions. It’s not about ascending a staircase - it’s about understanding how different memes function, compete, and stabilize under pressure.

[Nilsi]

Just now, Nilsi said:

I don’t even think Beck really treats Spiral Dynamics as a hierarchical stage theory. For him, it seems much more like a typology of value systems that co-exist, interact, and express themselves differently depending on context, stress, culture, and life conditions. It’s not about ascending a staircase - it’s about understanding how different memes function, compete, and stabilize under pressure.

So just to simplify it into a basic logical structure, here’s how I see the core differences between Beck, Wilber, and Leo:

• Beck: Value memes - non-hierarchical, context-dependent typology
• Wilber: Cognitive complexity - hierarchical, stage-based developmental model
• Leo: Value memes - hierarchical, stage-based developmental model

[Nilsi]

5 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

So just to simplify it into a basic logical structure, here’s how I see the core differences between Beck, Wilber, and Leo:

• Beck: Value memes - non-hierarchical, context-dependent typology
• Wilber: Cognitive complexity - hierarchical, stage-based developmental model
• Leo: Value memes - hierarchical, stage-based developmental model

So Beck seems to be much more influenced by Dawkinsian evolutionary dynamics - emphasizing adaptation, memetic variation, and context-dependent emergence. While both Wilber and Leo lean more toward a Hegelian dialectical framing, where development unfolds through a kind of logical or metaphysical necessity, as if higher stages are destined to emerge once the previous ones are transcended and integrated.

Which, fundamentally, is basically the difference between empiricism and rationalism - even though all of this is, of course, just a very crude simplification.

Edited April 12 by Nilsi

[Carl-Richard]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, they are Yellow. Right-wingers are not Yellow.

They are Yellow because they are able to integrate many different paradigms in ways that no lower stage can. They are not stuck fighting other stages like how Jordan Peterson or Musk or Shapiro are.

This is very obvious. This is not a close call.

Oh really? So the telling signs are what somebody does in the world rather than what somebody is capable of understanding? Interesting...

My point with this thread is essentially that if you let for example Ben Shapiro or Jordan Peterson spend a week learning about SD and make them go larp as Tier 2 on the forum and make them do it as best as they can or they get kicked out (to imitate the incentive that the Tier 2 fanatics on the forum have for maintaining their identity), I think they will do it much better than the average Tier 2 fanatic on here. And if that is the case, what does that say about their Tier 2 larp? Maybe you have to dig a bit deeper to judge whether or not you are actually Tier 2 (like for example looking at one's worldly occupation). Again, I'm just trying to pull people's pants down for those that might need it.

 

 

4 hours ago, AION said:

 It is not a question of understanding but a question of seeing. 

When Europeans came to the Americas the natives couldn’t recognize the pattern called a ship. 

This shows the remarkable ability of our brain. To be able to connect all the dots requires massive amounts of curiosity/libido which successful people like Shapiro don’t have because of their cozy position so they are not even looking for it. 

To be tier 2 you have to look for it with massive curiosity/libido. One can’t crawl through the eye of the needle by chance. 

Yeah, like "seeing" a YouTube video or "seeing" a fancy graph on Google Images. That's as much gusto you need to pass the "I'm actually Tier 2" bar. The only libido here is being shot into a Kleenex 🙈

Edited April 12 by Carl-Richard

[AION]

15 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

 

Yeah, like "seeing" a YouTube video or "seeing" a fancy graph on Google Images. That's as much gusto you need to pass the "I'm actually Tier 2" bar. The only libido here is being shot into a Kleenex 🙈

Haha, you made me laugh. God bless you.

[Emerald]

On 4/9/2025 at 10:44 PM, Carl-Richard said:

"Tier 2"-oriented life purpose with real tangible results, not just plans, ideas, dreams. Friends, community, network. Business, career, creative work. Do you at least look even slightly like those "Tier 2 talking heads" people always piss their pants about in intellectual arousal? Developing a stage takes decades — your life should track that development. Not living your potential is a sin and spiritual and moral self-harm.

With the development of Stage Yellow, the thing to 'show for it' can manifest itself tangibly as friends, community, creativity, and career success. But it's really just the frame of mind... and being able to put on multiple lenses.

So, a person would need to develop other skills to actualize the potentials and power that having Yellow multi-perspectival opens you up to. It's very much a "knowledge is power" kind of thing... where multi-perspectival thinking plus strategic skills plus work ethic = desired results.

You just become a lot more aware of the levers of power you have to bring about your desired ends because you can find levers of power from many angles and vantage points.

But with Stage Turquoise, this is less about intellect and is more about intuition, being, belonging, and basic heart wisdom. It's more of an intuitive sense of belonging within the greater whole of existence itself that requires Stage-Yellow multi perspectival thinking to intellectually parse out... but a small child naturally experiences before all the stuff of society is added.

But it requires the intellectual skills learned in Yellow to do the exploration, deconstruction, and subtraction necessary to get to the core of being.

It's a bit like Nietzsche's metaphor of beginning life as the camel that is a beast of burden that society lays all sorts of "stuff" onto. Then, being the lion that tears through and devours all the stuff the camel is burdened by (this is what Stage Yellow allows for).

And after we go through the phases of the camel and the lion, we get to be child. 

So, it's much more like a heart wisdom and an immersive recognition of how the whole and parts are one and the same... and an intuitive recognition of the clockwork of reality and how you are part of it and all of it. And there is a deep recognition of belonging within the whole.

It's essentially a recognition of the Dao in yourself and outside of yourself... and a total collapse of the false dichotomy of inside and outside.

And this can be used to get tangible results that others might recognize as great results. But not necessarily so. It's more about enriching your relationship to yourself and existence at large. It's not really about getting anywhere... it's about being.

Edited April 12 by Emerald

[Davino]

5 hours ago, AION said:

Elon Musk was more SD yellow than SD green. He was actually in between in the twilight zone until regressive authoritarian policies of SD green pulled him back out of necessity. 

It's very common for highly intellectual men to be core orange and intellectually yellow in some limited areas.

On the other hand, I've noticed women make easier the leap towards green but struggle to grasp/care about profound systemic mechanics.

[Emerald]

2 minutes ago, Davino said:

It's very common for highly intellectual men to be core orange and intellectually yellow in some limited areas.

On the other hand, I've noticed women make easier the leap towards green but struggle to grasp/care about profound systemic mechanics.

I've noticed that too.

Most men who have developed themselves tend to resist green.

So, they end up stuck in Orange with a few Yellow viewpoints around the edges. I can't even think of a man who values personal development who isn't in this bind to some degree or another.

And then, Stage Green is the comfort zone for women because all phases before it are quite hellish, unsafe, and disempowering to women. And moving to Yellow and Turquoise requires looking at some really ugly things that are very disempowering to women. So, it's a sticking point for women.

So, women will tend to hang out in green once they get there. 

It's a bit like running away from zombies for many millennia.... and then you finally get to the safe-house. It's not perfect there, but you have to go back out into the zombies and study the zombies and their ways deeply to get to tier two.

[Davino]

@Emerald What could we do to make those men more open about green?

It might involve feeling and being vulnerable. There might be too much of a masculine blueprint and momentum to let go of that. Maybe there's a way to green where men feel empowered and masculine. Or maybe it's the time for them to recognise the feminine in them to which they resist and surrender more. In which case, I still have no clarity to make this jump easier. (In my life green came with a woman that forced me to feel and with being vegetarian)

What about women that are in green in a safe zone of yoga and innocent hippieness?

Edited April 12 by Davino

[AION]

35 minutes ago, Davino said:

It's very common for highly intellectual men to be core orange and intellectually yellow in some limited areas.

On the other hand, I've noticed women make easier the leap towards green but struggle to grasp/care about profound systemic mechanics.

Yea it is about left brain versus right brain and finding the sweet spot. 

[Davino]

5 minutes ago, AION said:

Yea it is about left brain versus right brain and finding the sweet spot. 

I'd say more between mind and heart.