@Leo: About the carnivore diet

[Joshe]

22 hours ago, RendHeaven said:

This was me 3 years ago when I was eating salads and tofu and fish every day like a good boy

😂😂😂 Shit... I'm exorcising these demons! You gotta keep them around though. Give them just enough sustenance for survival and terrorize them from time to time... show them who's boss. 

[Joshe]

Carnivores, can you share your cholesterol numbers?

Is it not scientifically proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that prolonged elevated cholesterol levels causes atherosclerosis? This being the case, and since I saw my levels skyrocket after a month on carnivore, I don't give a shit how good it makes me feel. It's just not smart. I guess if your cholesterol is in healthy range, maybe it's not bad, but if it isn't, I wouldn't be risking it. 

I remember a while back a bunch of youtube "doctors" doing videos about how the medical industry has lied to you and diet cholesterol does not equal serum cholesterol and they're all feeding you lies. Then, I remember an actual doctor coming out and dismantling them.

Maybe he was just a big pharma shill. 

Or maybe big meat wants a piece of the action. Or maybe it's a Russian psyop with Jordan Peterson heading up the project.

Edited September 19, 2024 by Joshe

[Leo Gura]

32 minutes ago, Joshe said:

Carnivores, can you share your cholesterol numbers?

They are definitely bad, bad, bad in all possible ways.

Carnivore is not a healthy diet. Don't bullshit yourselves about this.

The only reason I do it is because I have no other choice. You should not do carnivore if you have other options.

Edited September 19, 2024 by Leo Gura

[RendHeaven]

6 hours ago, Joshe said:

Carnivores, can you share your cholesterol numbers?

I am omnivore, but I've been eating grass fed beef and whole eggs every day for the last 3 years

Last I checked:

LDL = 160

HDL = 60

Tris = 60

6 hours ago, Joshe said:

Is it not scientifically proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that prolonged elevated cholesterol levels causes atherosclerosis?

There are strong correlations but absolutely NOT causal.

The phenomenon of Lean Mass Hyper Responders throws a big wrench in the paradigm of "LDL = BAD" and this is often simply brushed to the side instead of tackled head-on (i.e. LMHRs are relegated to the sidelines as an outlier rather than seen as a core dysfunction in the causation model)

[Schizophonia]

@RendHeaven What do you think of Markus Rothkranz ?

He looks very well for his age and has a relatively LCHF vegan diet, with plenty of PUFAs. 

[RendHeaven]

16 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

@RendHeaven What do you think of Markus Rothkranz ?

He looks very well for his age and has a relatively LCHF vegan diet, with plenty of PUFAs. 

I've heard of this guy before, but I don't know enough to make real judgements

My first impressions are as follows:

Indeed impressive-looking for his (public) age, but smells fishy

When I searched his name on duckduckgo (cuz fuck google lol), this is the first video that popped up:

So even IF his information sharing was accurate and true, his optics and antics are WILDLY sleazy.

And this low-integrity immediately makes me question if anything else he says is actually real.

For example how can we be sure he's not secretly eating meat on the side while promoting veganism? Is he really even 62? (doing one thing, saying another is highly probable)

And I'm also aware that one "exposed" video doesn't have absolute credibility either. After all, Leo has the same kind of character-take-down videos made on him by unqualified people calling him "cult leader."

But certainly the green screen fakery is self evident, and markus has a lot of explaining to do.

If he indeed eats exactly as he reports, then his sky high antioxidant status protects him considerably from the downsides of high PUFA. But that doesn't mean high PUFA is necessarily the optimal play, because low PUFA + antioxidants accomplishes the same thing and more

[Schizophonia]

15 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

I've heard of this guy before, but I don't know enough to make real judgements

My first impressions are as follows:

Indeed impressive-looking for his (public) age, but smells fishy

When I searched his name on duckduckgo (cuz fuck google lol), this is the first video that popped up:

So even IF his information sharing was accurate and true, his optics and antics are WILDLY sleazy.

This video is very mediocre. It's basically grotesque ad personams when he says something that seems outlandish to the person who made this video.

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And this low-integrity immediately makes me question if anything else he says is actually real.

For example how can we be sure he's not secretly eating meat on the side while promoting veganism? Is he really even 62? (doing one thing, saying another is highly probable)

Claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

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And I'm also aware that one "exposed" video doesn't have absolute credibility either. After all, Leo has the same kind of character-take-down videos made on him by unqualified people calling him "cult leader."

Yes, precisely 

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But certainly the green screen fakery is self evident, and markus has a lot of explaining to do.

He's probably neuroatypical and has some crazy ideas here and there.
It doesn't matter.

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If he indeed eats exactly as he reports, then his sky high antioxidant status protects him considerably from the downsides of high PUFA. But that doesn't mean high PUFA is necessarily the optimal play, because low PUFA + antioxidants accomplishes the same thing and more

You certainly right on this one 👍

Edited September 20, 2024 by Schizophonia

[RendHeaven]

10 hours ago, Michael569 said:

The word "causes" is one we need to dance carefully around but basically you could say that a combination of: 

1. high ApoB 100   
   1. includes a combination of LDL, LP(a), VLDL
2. low HDL (although pharmacological interventions aimed at reducing secondary event through HDL elevation are much much less effective than those aimed at reducing LDL, hence why the whole "targed LDL, maintain HDL strategy") . So you could say, optimal HDL & LDL helps protect you from the first event but reducing LDL post primary event will basically save your life where increasing HDL at that point does little. 
3. elevated blood pressure (potentially anything above 115-120 / 70-80 - depending how much scrutiny you apply to the evidence) 
4. high triglycerides  
5. high blood sugar (as measured by combination HbA1C, fasted glucose and post prandial glucose & HOMA-IR),
6. high level of central obesity (as measured by a combination of BMI, waist:hip ratio, waist circumference and reliable body fat measurement) 
7. smoking
8. alcohol 

...are all major contributors to atherosclerosis.

Excellent wording, very intelligent take.

[Joshe]

Thanks for the info @Michael569

Sorry, when I said "cause"  what I meant was "largely contributes to". I'm known to not be precise with my words... I'm working on it. 

So, if one spent their 20s drinking and smoking and stopped at 30, and from 20 to 35 ate a standard American diet, and are 15 to 20 pounds overweight, mostly sedentary lifestyle, pre-diabetic with slightly elevated blood pressure, it's probably best if they approach the Carnivore diet with extreme caution and make sure to keep a check on their cholesterol numbers, right? 

See, this is the problem. Medical science is too large and complex of a topic for normal people to dive into and so they have to rely on authorities and anecdotal evidence to know what to do. So, I do appreciate the information but if we're to dance around anything, it seems we should dance around advocating for a diet that the best science we currently have, says is likely dangerous for many people. But anyway, no need to argue about that.

It seems like you know your medical stuff. Do you mind if I ask what you do? Also, what resources would you recommend if someone were interested in optimizing their health for longevity? 

Edited September 20, 2024 by Joshe

[Joshe]

@Michael569 Thanks for the info!