A World WITHOUT Money | Thought Experiment

[ryoko]

"Tomorrowland"

I have been having this vision in the back of my mind for quite some time now. A world where karma is the only currency. You enjoy the fruits of everything you do, also you're not supposed to do anything either. This is also an imperfect world, because karma isn't real either at stage Turquoise, also societal(collective) karma is almost nullified, nobody is forced to do anything. This world here isn't interested in hoarding anything, people are free to do anything, but alone. The goal is that one doesn't interfere or even passively impact the other. There is no need to earn money, or even contribute to the society, you can live a perfectly good life, doing nothing. Infact doing nothing is the norm, it is the best thing to do. Activity is neither encouraged nor discouraged. Flowering of an individual's true nature is celebrated. This world at first, focused on tech advancements as a community, like "Tomorrowland". Soon they get bored of it and commit suicide out of boredom. Because every form of "pleasure" is short circuited, it was not really suicide, it was MahaSamadhi. People left behind their bodies, consciously, without any external aid.

Where did it go wrong? Or did it?
Thoughts?

Edited April 11 by ryoko

[RendHeaven]

Incompatible with the circumstances of human life on planet earth.

Everyone would die because necessary infrastructure for survival would not be in place (labor is necessary for infrastructure, and you specifically propose to erase labor)

and as everyone is dying, selfishness would flare up and mass conflict would outbreak, because nobody honestly wants to die. Unless you somehow suppose that everyone will drop dead peacefully, I wonder how you will convince them to do that?

God invented earth and humans in such a way that labor is a necessity for survival. And survival is necessary to understand Universal Love.

Only though such struggle can survival and selfishness be slowly overcome in real-time - and the wisdom, love, and beauty gained in the process cannot be experienced by fast-forwarding to the end.

君は日本人のようですね。このフォーラムをどのようにして見つけましたか?

[ryoko]

1 minute ago, RendHeaven said:

Incompatible with the circumstances of human life on planet earth.

Everyone would die because necessary infrastructure for survival would not be in place (labor is necessary for infrastructure, and you specifically propose to erase labor)

and as everyone is dying, selfishness would flare up and mass conflict would outbreak, because nobody honestly wants to die. Unless you somehow suppose that everyone will drop dead peacefully, I wonder how you will convince them to do that?

God invented earth and humans in such a way that labor is a necessity for survival. And survival is necessary to understand Universal Love.

Only though such struggle can survival and selfishness be slowly overcome in real-time - and the wisdom, love, and beauty gained in the process cannot be experienced by fast-forwarding to the end.

君は日本人のようですね。このフォーラムをどのようにして見つけましたか?

There's no convincing, it's just a natural consequence. Here survival is taken care of, people given immense freedom to explore their passion without restraints. Over time, an evolution will happen, there's no forcing that anyone need to die, but this form of death(consciously leaving the body), is celebrated, and is getting more and more common.

[RendHeaven]

3 minutes ago, ryoko said:

Here survival is taken care of

Precisely how? Give detail.

3 minutes ago, ryoko said:

people given immense freedom to explore their passion without restraints.

We already have the immense freedom to explore our passions, mostly without restraints, in 1st world countries.

The fact that you are engaging in dialogue with me on this forum is proof of that.

Don't get too greedy to dispose of all restraints.

With 0 restraints on anybody, people's passion will take critical damage. Restrains spark passion.

Do not wish for an alternate reality without understanding the perfection of current reality.

8 minutes ago, ryoko said:

there's no forcing that anyone need to die, but this form of death(consciously leaving the body), is celebrated, and is getting more and more common.

even after a million years of human evolution, we will never have a culture of celebrating dropping dead.

It's in our nature to want to persist as finite (in our ignorance), and to shit bricks and cry for mommy when faced with the oblivion of void.

I think you are underestimating the psychological power of death on most humans. Just because you fancy yourself a reclusive martyr, this is not the nature of mankind, and it certainly is not the trajectory of human development either.

Our final form as humans will involve a brilliant synthesis of respect for survival and fear/death integration. You cannot just get rid of the former.

[ryoko]

The existence of division such as 1st world, 4th world in itself, is stupid.
If you're not aware yet, you are restrained even more in a first world country. It's the gift of Collective Karma. You naturally will have a lower "tolerance", making it impossible to live "as" nature. And by passion, you automatically assume, it has something to do with economy or people, what if it have nothing to do with society at all? And that's the kind of passion being referred here. This society is already satisfied, it doesn't need another savior or salesman. Passion is just an expression of your highest nature. These are not forced ideals, people who are in it have actually evolved to that level.

If you're not aware already, MahaSamadhi had been celebrated already for thousands of years. It's an awesome achievement.

So far all your inputs have been of immense joy to me @RendHeaven

 

Edited April 11 by ryoko

[ryoko]

26 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

Precisely how? Give detail.

Nature has enough for everyone, people here have just evolved to integrate it, all the infrastructure is futuristic as in Tomorrowland or StarTrek

[RendHeaven]

Just now, ryoko said:

The existence of division such as 1st world, 4th world in itself, is stupid

All divisions are stupid, but I mention 1st world to delineate a relative measurement of economic development.

In economically developed countries, we enjoy so much freedom its actually unprecedented. The fact that I can hop in my car and drive across the country, and then go hiking a mountain with my friends who live there, and then discuss philosophy on the beach and flirt with cute girls. If that's not your cup of tea, nothing's stopping you from engaging in solitary or artistic hobbies like reading, making music, or long meditation sits. The uncapped exchange of ideas, experiences, people, resources - this all allows you to design your life to enjoy more of what you value. What more could you ask for?

2 minutes ago, ryoko said:

If you're not aware yet, you are restrained even more in a first world country.

Precisely how? 

7 minutes ago, ryoko said:

And by passion, you automatically assume, it has something to do with economy or people, what if it have nothing to do with society at all? And that's the kind of passion being referred here.

To be passionate about Consciousness means you are passionate about people and society. The 10 ox herding pictures ends with "return to society" for good reason.

10 minutes ago, ryoko said:

If you're not aware already, MahaSamadhi is had been celebrated for thousands of years. It's an awesome achievement.

Yes but it is not for everyone and it never will be.

What makes you so sure that human development will culminate at mass-Mahasamadhi? That sounds like a spiritual fantasy to me.

Death will naturally come for everyone anyway. No rush.

12 minutes ago, ryoko said:

So far all your inputs have been of immense joy to me @RendHeaven

I'm having fun too man, I appreciate you!

4 minutes ago, ryoko said:

Nature has enough for everyone, people here have just evolved to integrate it, all the infrastructure is futuristic as in Tomorrowland or StarTrek

How would this society deal with selfish people who attempt to abuse or monopolize power?

Do we get rid of them by force? Or do we love and embrace them?

"We will evolve to the point that nobody is selfish anymore" is a cop-out. Let's do some difficult philosophy, not just wishful thinking!

[Schizophonia]

[ryoko]

2 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

"We will evolve to the point that nobody is selfish anymore"

People are unique, they are not restricted from selfishness, infact all they are doing is being selfish. So selfish that they forget about harming others. Power is what you built for yourself, your karma. But remember it's never had anything to do with others in the first place.

This thought experiment is more like, "let's short circuit God's Greatest pleasure, that is this slot machine of a human evolution", finding evil people is a great joy to this whole game. What's the fun if there's no selfish people.

[ryoko]

11 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

What makes you so sure that human development will culminate at mass-Mahasamadhi? That sounds like a spiritual fantasy to me.

I don't think everyone's end goal is MahaSamadhi. It's just a peculiarity of this futuristic society. These people not eager to die or something, they have found better use for their time.

 

 

13 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

To be passionate about Consciousness means you are passionate about people and society

Not Consciousness, it could be anything. Let's say your passion is to do nothing.

[ryoko]

21 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

What more could you ask for?

We can always ask for more, what if I asked for a clean slate, to rid of the Collective Karma.
I would naturally be rid of all the privileges too. Nothing ever comes to you for free.

Now, after ridding the privileges, what if I asked the Nation to stop being a Nation? Why is there a concept of nation in the first place. Why restrict oneself to this small part of earth, when this whole earth is mine.

 

Edited April 11 by ryoko

[aurum]

5 hours ago, ryoko said:

Where did it go wrong?

You went wrong by severely underestimating the challenges of survival and the current development of mankind.

The world you are describing is not going to exist for a very long time.

[jimwell]

6 hours ago, ryoko said:

There is no need to earn money, or even contribute to the society, you can live a perfectly good life, doing nothing. Infact doing nothing is the norm, it is the best thing to do.

It can materialize via very advanced AI and robotics. But I think UBI must also be the norm first. 

We'd be very lucky if it all materialized in our lifetime. But suppose it does, doing nothing until death would be a tragedy. Doing what makes us feel love and excitement is the key. And it involves activity, intelligence, and creativity, though doing nothing is also a part of it. 

Are you really Japanese? Ryoko sounds a Japanese girl's name. 

[Ishanga]

Jacques Fresco already invented this idea, a world without Money, a different sort of society where AI controls the resources so that all get what they need and there is no lack in the world, its basic idea but very cool imo... The main problem today is greed is everywhere, unconsciousness is everywhere, and ppl do not know what reality is, this sort of "Resource Based Economy" could help, and allow ppl to find out what they really are and what Life is for, rather than being a Slave to the Dollar and Time..

 

[ryoko]

7 hours ago, aurum said:

You went wrong by severely underestimating the challenges of survival

5 hours ago, jimwell said:

doing nothing until death would be a tragedy

As long as you're not cool with the idea of everyone doing nothing, this world have no chance of materializing.

[aurum]

13 minutes ago, ryoko said:

As long as you're not cool with the idea of everyone doing nothing, this world have no chance of materializing.

It's got nothing to do with how I personally feel about doing nothing.

Don't get me wrong, you have a beautiful vision in many ways and I want to acknowledge you for that. There are some impulses here that are deeply correct.

But society at large is nowhere near stage Turquoise. We barely even know what Turquoise is and what it looks like, because so few people have gotten there.

So now here's a test: if you truly care about actualizing this beautiful vision, you need to accept that much of society is going to be a brutual game of survival for still many years to come.

Until you accept that, you will just be stuck in utopianism. And you will actually be less successful at helping to bring your vision into reality, not more.

[aurum]

6 hours ago, Ishanga said:

Jacques Fresco already invented this idea, a world without Money, a different sort of society where AI controls the resources so that all get what they need and there is no lack in the world, its basic idea but very cool imo... The main problem today is greed is everywhere, unconsciousness is everywhere, and ppl do not know what reality is, this sort of "Resource Based Economy" could help, and allow ppl to find out what they really are and what Life is for, rather than being a Slave to the Dollar and Time..

 

I actually went to visit the Venus Project and got a tour. As far as I can tell, it has been a complete failure.

It broke my heart really. Jacque and his partner essentially devoted their entire adult lives to making that project a reality, and they have almost nothing to show for it. And they seemed like genuine people who wanted to do good.

Of course, it's possible that Jacque's work will be rediscovered. Or perhaps his ideas will inspire someone else in the future. But I would be wary of chasing these utopian dreams. You might just end up spending your whole life on a dead end.

[ryoko]

1 hour ago, aurum said:

if you truly care about actualizing this beautiful vision

53 minutes ago, aurum said:

You might just end up spending your whole life on a dead end.

You're still approaching the solution from the same level of mind which created the problem.

I'm all for people doing whatever their heart desires at the moment.

About this whole "bringing vision to reality" thing, it's absolutely boring.

Edited April 12 by ryoko

[ryoko]

15 hours ago, Ishanga said:

Jacques Fresco already invented this idea, a world without Money, a different sort of society where AI controls the resources so that all get what they need and there is no lack in the world, its basic idea but very cool imo... The main problem today is greed is everywhere, unconsciousness is everywhere, and ppl do not know what reality is, this sort of "Resource Based Economy" could help, and allow ppl to find out what they really are and what Life is for, rather than being a Slave to the Dollar and Time..

 

This initiative is such a wholesome one, I loved the people behind it.
I'm curious how they'll handle the transition, because, currently it needs money to operate, and people in it, will need money when they wanna transact outside Venus (Miami is close to Venus), I got the impression that, they intend to uproot all the conditioning for this to work successfully, it's an awesome thing if it can be done effectively. It will definitely be effective on children who grow up there. Willing adults might take a while to fully transition.

[aurum]

13 hours ago, ryoko said:

You're still approaching the solution from the same level of mind which created the problem.

I am suggesting that many of our current paradigms, mindsets, institutions and otherwise ways of operating society are functional, precisely because they are congruent with our level development.

There needs to be a balance of idealism and pragmatism.

Fundamentally, the society you are describing will not exist in our lifetime.

13 hours ago, ryoko said:

I'm all for people doing whatever their heart desires at the moment.

I understand that is what you are for. And that's a valid perspective.

What I am asking you to consider here, is that we are not at a point where society is collectively ready to function like that. And if you attempt to structure society is such a way, it will badly backfire.

13 hours ago, ryoko said:

About this whole "bringing vision to reality" thing, it's absolutely boring.

Yes, the mundane reality of accomplishing goals can be far less exciting than daydreaming. And I think there is something to be said for daydreaming and not immediately getting sucked into the "how's and what's".

But wouldn't you also have to agree that if you find your vision exciting, it's exactly because you imagine it could happen in real life? You aren't just excited about it as a theoretically possibility, you imagine that society could actually function this way.