Leo you misunderstand Hitler completely

[Yimpa]

Censorship is a hell of a drug 

[Leo Gura]

18 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

Is a bold and biased claims you're making for Journalists who like Trump are 'not serious Journalists and hack entertainers', and also claiming that Journalism has a core value of truth. If it's true, then what about Journalists who like say Joe Biden? Are they also hack entertainers and not serious Journalists?

Journalists are allowed to have their own opinions and biases. Some could like or dislike Biden.

But Trump is another level. You have to be seriously compromised in the truth department to like Trump.

Journalism is not a neutral profession like entertainment. Journalism requires truth and integrity.

Edited March 31 by Leo Gura

[Danioover9000]

@Yimpa

2 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

Censorship is a hell of a drug 

Censorship is a drug?

[aurum]

6 hours ago, Nilsi said:

You would agree that a very intelligent psychopath can cause more havoc than a very unintelligent one, wouldn't you? In the same sense, capitalism, operating through relativism, pluralism, etc., is much more insidious than the plain old industrial-era capitalism, where the factory worker has a clear image of this capitalism (e.g. factories, bourgeois capitalists).

Today's capitalism is so decentralized and nebulous that most people don't even realize they are enslaved by it and, at best, can concoct some conspiracy theories to imagine where the center of oppression lies (e.g. deep state/elites, silicon valley, etc.), which is nothing but a coping strategy for the radically fluid and faceless reality of capitalism and the market forces that dominate their lives today.

There's some truth to this. Certainly things have become more complex, which can make it harder for the average person to make sense of things. Also the scale of society and the technology we possess means there is the potential for more perniciousness.

This does not mean though that we should go backwards and resimplify society though. This is instead a challenge to be addressed by becoming better as people. What is needed is more education, more personal development, more consciousness. Your mind has to evolve to keep pace with society's evolution.

6 hours ago, Nilsi said:

Quite the ironic, but predictable twist. Libertarianism, in many ways, is the ultimate conclusion of green liberalism in a world that still hasn't addressed the underlying economic and psychological realities of capitalism.

Lol. Keep dreaming.

6 hours ago, Nilsi said:

This is textbook stage orange hubris. First of all, let's not confuse capitalism with the economy (more on that later). Secondly, and most importantly, there is no guarantee of some utopian future; the future is radically open, and unless humanity takes full responsibility for it, I can guarantee you that the future we will create (or rather, let happen) will be dystopic, and much worse than what we have now.

(See Joseph Tainter's "Collapse of Complex Societies," Oswald Spengler's "Decline of the West," or Manuel De Landa's "A Thousand Years of Nonlinear History" to dispel yourself of any such naive readings of historical progress.)

1) It depends on your timeline. Non-linearity / collapse is certainly possible on a short-time line. I am using a longer one

2) Yes we need to take responsibility for the future, this is obvious and doesn't need saying

3) All of the people you named are materialists who don't understand the evolution and intelligence of consciousness

 

The future is not just radically open. There is a clear line of evolution that is happening. And it's not towards more evil. 

[Danioover9000]

@Leo Gura

22 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Journalists are allowed to have their own opinions and biases. Some could like or dislike Biden.

But Trump is another level. You have to be seriously compromised in the truth department to like Trump.

Journalism is not a neutral profession like entertainment. Journalism requires truth and integrity.

   If Journalists are allowed to have their own opinions and biases, and some could like/dislike any Politician, including Biden, then why is Donald Trump an exception given that he also does politics, lies like politicians, tries to charm and charisma and do demagoguery just like other politicians including Biden?

   So in terms of ad hominem, what makes Trump's bad character on another level compared to Biden's bad character? And why does this necessitate that Journalists who like Trump=compromised truth and integrity? Isn't there a degree of cherry picking and liking/disliking a character that doesn't necessitate or imply a person's immorality? For example a person might like Trump for his business product, but also dislike his political takes. Similarly a Journalist can like Joe Biden's political takes, but may dislike the racism he displayed 20 years ago, or may not agree with another domain.

   Journalism is not a neutral profession like entertainment? Do you mean entertainment isn't a neutral profession like Journalism?

[Danioover9000]

@aurum

6 minutes ago, aurum said:

There's some truth to this. Certainly things have become more complex, which can make it harder for the average person to make sense of things. Also the scale of society and the technology we possess means there is the potential for more perniciousness.

This does not mean though that we should go backwards and resimplify society though. This is instead a challenge to be addressed by becoming better as people. What is needed is more education, more personal development, more consciousness. Your mind has to evolve to keep pace with society's evolution.

Lol. Keep dreaming.

1) It depends on your timeline. Non-linearity / collapse is certainly possible on a short-time line. I am using a longer one

2) Yes we need to take responsibility for the future, this is obvious and doesn't need saying

3) All of the people you named are materialists who don't understand the evolution and intelligence of consciousness

 

The future is not just radically open. There is a clear line of evolution that is happening. And it's not towards more evil. 

   I agree that we need more, education, more personal development, and more consciousness. What about more human decency laws?

[Leo Gura]

17 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

then why is Donald Trump an exception

Look, if this isn't obvious to you by now,  nothing I say can help you.

[Danioover9000]

@Leo Gura

20 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Look, if this isn't obvious to you by now,  nothing I say can help you.

   Don't be gloomy. I don't see how regardless of if it is/isn't obvious to me, that it justifies that whatever you say is nothing and can't help me. IMO a big assumption you've made about me. Maybe by providing me some concrete and clear examples to show how badly and evil Trump is in comparison to Biden might help clarify things for me and others reading?

   I'm just trying to see where you're coming from when you claim and justify that when a Journalist likes Donald Trump = lack of seriousness and hack entertainer, but liking Joe Biden isn't? Maybe if possible could you list some character traits from Donald Trump and Joe Biden that could justify this cherry picked standard for Journalists with right wing bias versus left wing bias?

[Yimpa]

The fact that there even is a rematch between Trump and Biden should clearly show how immature the USA is. 

Anyway, either option is certainly better than Hitler.

[Danioover9000]

@Yimpa

Just now, Yimpa said:

The fact that there even is a rematch between Trump and Biden should clearly show how immature the USA is. 

Anyway, either option is certainly better than Hitler.

   But this is a false dilemma fallacy is it not? That you're assuming USA and Americans can only vote for Donald Trump or Joe Biden. What if Americans have the option to not vote? What if they choose to vote another political group, like green party, or Libertarianism? Or have an election to veto certain votes?

[Yimpa]

Just now, Danioover9000 said:

What if Americans have the option to not vote?

Exactly why US is IMMATURE!

[aurum]

51 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

I agree that we need more, education, more personal development, and more consciousness. What about more human decency laws?

Human decency laws are derived from what I just listed.

[Danioover9000]

@Yimpa

Just now, Yimpa said:

Exactly why US is IMMATURE!

   How does the right to not vote, or the right to vote an alternative political group other than the nominees or the democrats/Republicans parties, exactly shows why the USA is immature? Isn't those legal rights for voters from the constitution, democracy, and individualism? Isn't that also from the right to freedom of speech?

[Danioover9000]

@aurum

Just now, aurum said:

Human decency laws are derived from what I just listed.

   If true that human decency laws are derived from what you just listed, then why are we seeing more nakedness and vulgarity in Gen Z and Millennials using social media sites, and behaving in more immoral ways in reality?  Also aren't human decency laws more derived from Judeo-Christian values?

[aurum]

13 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

 If true that human decency laws are derived from what you just listed, then why are we seeing more nakedness and vulgarity in Gen Z and Millennials using social media sites, and behaving in more immoral ways in reality? Also aren't human decency laws more derived from Judeo-Christian values?

Gen Z and Millennials are not inherently more immoral. They are just less uptight about certain things previous generations cared more about. This has pros and cons.

Obviously many of them are still young and immature in a lot of ways. 

To me, Human Decency Laws look something like this:

https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights

^These values are secular and universal, not Judeo-Christian

Edited March 31 by aurum

[Yimpa]

27 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

How does the right to not vote, or the right to vote an alternative political group other than the nominees or the democrats/Republicans parties, exactly shows why the USA is immature?

I would argue that it’s not just about the right to not vote, but also about the majority of the citizens being uninformed and uneducated about politics, thus they feel that they don’t have a voice to begin with.

And some additional insight from Claude 3 Opus:

Quote

The test of a mature democracy is not just the existence of rights on paper, but how well it fosters a culture of informed, empowered and engaged citizens in practice. By that measure, the USA still has important work to do, even as we recognize the hard-won progress that has been made. What's needed is a sustained commitment to democratic revitalization.

 

Edited March 31 by Yimpa

[Danioover9000]

@aurum

12 minutes ago, aurum said:

Gen Z and Millennials are not inherently more immoral. They are just less uptight about certain things previous generations cared more about. This has pros and cons.

Obviously many of them are still young and immature in a lot of ways. 

To me, Human Decency Laws look something like this:

https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights

^These values are secular and universal, not Judeo-Christian

Gen Z and Millennials are not inherently more immoral.

Most Gen Z and some Millennials behave in vulgar ways and are more naked online.

Therefore Gen Z and Millennials are not inherently immoral? What if it becomes more indecent?

What are some of the pros and cons of most Gen Z and Millennials being more or less human decency?

 

So according to that org and you, human decency laws are secular and universal? Are you not acknowledging the historical origins of human decency laws? 

 

 

[aurum]

15 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Just give the solution already.

What is the green solution? Green is not the solution to the problems of the last stage.

Rather, the last stage runs to completion and as a consequence, you move to the next stage. You cannot solve orange problem by pushing for green. 

That's not how that works. 

You would know why Green is the solution if you stopped denying it all as virtue signaling.

15 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

I am not being cynical of green. I am against exploiting people and whitewashing it all as progressive green stuff. 

I am not criticizing you for being against corrupt greenwashing. I am also against that.

I am criticizing you for throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Go to the Spiral Dynamics Green Mega Thread. Actually take the time to study and understand Green. Ask yourself: What is Green actually? Why does it exist? Why did it develop in the spiral? What is its function in the evolution of consciousness? What value does it bring? 

Contemplate. Take your time, do not rush this or jump to easy answers.

Also, feel free to take it in as objectively as possible, the good and the bad. You will get to keep some of your critiques. But this will help balance your perspective if you actually do this.

[Twentyfirst]

Ya I did plenty of truth stuff in my life journey and after all that I still like Trump. The economy was way better with him than Biden and I think thats the most important change that a president can make that will actually translate to my real life 

[aurum]

46 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

Gen Z and Millennials are not inherently more immoral.

Most Gen Z and some Millennials behave in vulgar ways and are more naked online.

Therefore Gen Z and Millennials are not inherently immoral? What if it becomes more indecent?

People have always been vulgar and naked. The younger generations are just more open and less repressed about it compared to boomers.

I consider it a necessary correction from a big picture POV.

46 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

What are some of the pros and cons of most Gen Z and Millennials being more or less human decency?

Pros: less repression, unconsciousness and shame around sexuality. A starting place for integrating a much more healthy, mature relationship to sexuality

Cons: crudeness, promotion of meaningless hookup culture, loss of seeing sex as an intimate act to be taken seriously

46 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

So according to that org and you, human decency laws are secular and universal? Are you not acknowledging the historical origins of human decency laws? 

1) They are universal and secular in the sense that no religion or ideology gets a monopoly on them. Certainly not Judeo-Christian.

2) I am acknowledging the origins of these laws. The true origins go beyond any particular religion. That's my point.