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enlightenment is the same thing as self realization but i prefer the latter. enlightenment is when the transition occurs, when consciousness is awakened enough that it can shift from being and believing it is the human being or the observed to being the being of consciousness that it was before becoming lost in the identity and function as that, it is an experience, not a rationalization of it.

@Rashad The only way you can change is to become awakened.

i will do my best to answer the whiney little girl question actually i think i like your response, it says a lot. first of all let me say i understand and feel your pain, i have been in those places, the rehabs, the nursing homes, hospitals, psych hospital, on a regular basis, i have seen what you are talking about and it is horrible that people have to live like they do in those places. I ended up in icu once because i let too much and too many things get to me and wasnt handling things the way i should have been to do the work and survivie myself. the very next day after coming out of the hospital, i went to see a lady i was caring for, and it all started again, i had to lay down at her place for a few minutes and then i told her i had to go home i wasnt feeling well, and i went home and layed down, i knew then i had to change the way i was doing things if i was going to help her and live, she has had a mental condition for over 30 years, i still look after her while she is now n the psych hospital as much as i can, i spent a lot of time in rehabs, and hospitals, there is no way i would want to live like many of them have to live day to day. there are some things in life that you cannot change, cannot do something about, you have to know your limitations and it is possible to do this work without it destroying you. i have been awake a long time but i allowed myself to become too attached to the pain body of others, and you cant do that and survive or work with people like you are talking about that way. you have to pull back, maintain emotional and mental stability to be around and help people in those situations, you have to see the big picture in life, and you have to stay in reality and do it in the moment, fully aware of all of it but doing it for those other people you are involved with and those around them because you care about them and want to try to brighten their day just a little. the only way out of the pain and misery of life for yourself and others is too understand you are functioning as a human identity, and that most always involves pain, misery, and consequences of some sort. i have read your post and responded to some, your consciousness is trying to fully awaken from the dream that we are living in, and it is a dream, an illusion, as much as it seems so real, the only part of the whole thing that is real is the life that you carries your body, you consciousness, it came to experience life in a physical way, that it couldnt as consciousness, it became so attached to the physical that it primarily became lost in the identity it created to experience this life in, believing it was the identity, thereby causing it to have some experiences in physical life that can be anything from mild to horrible, until the awakening begins and change begins to happen. now you are in the process of awakening if you can understand this paragraph and trust it just a little for a period of time and try to take one step away from your physical body and imagine what it feels like to be the source that is giving your body life, this is what we are after to really discover that and be one with it, when consciousness is fully awakened, and you are functioning as that, you can function in the moments of life, seeing the reality of things you talked about, and still be able to function in a way that wont cripple your own self, and make you able to even help those around you, knowing you can only do your part to make their life better, their destiny is not in your hands, and that they to are in this dream that humans created, it is pointless to begin to question why this is happening to them until after you fully awaken then you will know the answer. you said: is it possible to week after week -year after year go into these adolescent pysch hospitals and not be affected by the crazy extremes---chemical restraints ,self harm, ect..from the children - tears, anger ,blame, all the 'normal' reactions i watch the parents expressing. one kid goes crazy and they all go crazy-its insane.one little 5 year old attacks other kids like he's freaking demonized (that was a bad joke -i not buying into demon bullshit or something ). therapist are nothing more than a struggle for me--i have drug addict friends who aren't as pushy with thiere drugs as these therapist people are i realize i am not doing well with life...are you guys suggesting to each other that if you just let things happen somehow your ok with whatever happens? i honestly can't even tell anymore if life makes me sad or just pissed off. the hard thing is none of whats happening is necessary- its all easily changeable (((what is happening is necessary, because it was created by human beings, there is no escaping that, and yes it is changeable, that is why you do what you choose to do to make it better for any and everyone of those people, but you have to do it from a place of reality, seeing the bigger picture and knowing that it is a dream for you and them but you are doing what is important to you to bring change to their dream and their life as you awaken from this dream. yes it is possible for the awakened being to do this, and be happy that you are able and can do these things for those that cant, just to be able to put a smile on many of their faces is reward enough. look deeper within yourself, everything you need to overcome this is there, take up your true state of being as a creator of life, and create the best that you can for yourself and others and be glad that you can, put a smile on your face around those other people, be there for them and know that what you do may make a world of difference in the long term outcome of their existence.)))

you can help most anyone, maybe not the way you want to help, but it may be the way they want or need help, whether they have the ablility to change are not, you cant change anyone, don't waste your time thinking about it, you can only change yourself and do for others what they need or want because you choose to for whatever reason, when you begin to try to control other peoples lives you become very responsible for the outcome. nature isnt cruel at all, and nature does care, you are just not experiencing it in its natural way. emotions are not weakness, however you can allow your emotions to create major problems for you and others, if your emotions are not coming from the right place and for the right reasons and are not stable. if you have to ask this question of how to maintain emotional stability when you will be in front of cruelty and abuse, you are not ready to help them. this will come from experience and you may pay the price for it just like i did, until, you awaken to the reality of yourself, life, and those around you and i mean in a real way, not just rationalization or intellectualizing, but rather an experience as an awakened, or self realized being, when confronted with cruelty and abuse when trying to help others, you have to be very strong in most all ways, to first not see it as cruelty or abuse, but actions of a person who is hurting, in pain, misery, cant live with themselves, many want to die. until you have had to work with people who want to kill themselves because of the pain and misery they are in, and are ready to do it, when you begin to realize that you could be the thing that pushes this person over the edge, you will give a lot of thought and consideration to what you are going to do and what you are going to say, and even how you look when you do and say it. For most of you younguns as we called them, forget about saving the world right now, find the real you and work with that, it will enable you to face what arises in the moment for you to deal with, and without that, you are screwed.

**DISCLAIMER** Everything I write here is ultimately bullshit. The devil dressed himself up as god and declared: “I shall complete 1000 hours of strong determination sitting and cast out the devil once and for all!” God watched the proceedings silently ... How to perform an exorcism: Step 1: Be awake Step 2: Don't touch any “I” thoughts Step 3: Sit motionless for 1000 hours *** I've had more enlightenment experiences than I can count. I've also had a few near death experiences that have really catalysed my urge to wake up fully. I'm currently going through what Adyashanti calls the “got it, lost it phase” of awakening. He details this in his book The End Of Your World, its written for people who have experienced the awakened state and have fallen out of it somehow. Mooji, and Sadhguru also refer to this stage, where the battle against the mind (ego) begins in earnest. I haven't seen it been discussed much on this forum with the exception of this thread: I'm having authentic enlightenment experiences when my false “I” melts away, but I am unable to remain in that space throughout my daily life. My ego invariable creeps back in, like a zombie that keeps coming back from the dead and pulling me back into person hood. This process of popping in and out of truth is very painful and I've finally come to the realisation that if I am going to be enlightened I have to make a stand for my freedom. Yeah sure, there's no free will. Yeah sure, you can't plan enlightenment. Yeah sure, the “me” that wants to be free doesn't exist and the “me” that wants to be free can't wake up. All of that is correct. I know it's correct because “I've” seen it. The “I” that wants to awaken is a false “I”. It's time to become pragmatic about my journey, as Leo says “you're not enlightened until you're fucking enlightened”. Experiences are necessary steps on the path, but they don't count as enlightenment. Enlightenment has to be a living experience, flowing from one moment to the next, not a philosophy that “you” keep spinning. Adyashanti talks about this transition from experience to permanent realisation here Mooji talks about this same thing here As does Sadhguru here and here Osho Talks about the difference between learning knowledge and earning knowledge. Experiences are not earned knowledge. They all talk about putting in a special kind of effort to dissolve the ego. Who puts in this effort? A paradox, but one that must be overcome. I define my ego simply as “that which is resisting the reality of the present moment by means of distracting projections” If I follow Mooji's self-enquiry pointing or I listen to Osho and Adyashanti, through their words I gradually fall into a state of presence and then into "The Truth", the True empty self. This is not sustained, though. Shinzen young calls this getting a Guru Zap, and he explains the benefits of practising strong determination sitting here. This belief that I can't sustain enlightenment is itself a distracting projection i.e. a function of ego (as I define it). The resistance that is coming up now is immense, for good reason. As Mooji says in the video above: “You can't just have a cappuccino awakening, it has to be swallowed and digested and assimilated, then what you know, becomes what you are” The dialogue he has with this woman is really hitting home for me too. I'm now ready to walk through the fires of my own mind and free myself totally. I want enlightenment will every fibre of my being, because I am suffering the one who wants. This is the paradox of my predicament. I've chosen strong determination sitting and self-inquiry as my main techniques to assist in completing my surrender – all the way. Leo recommends self actualizing your way up to enlightenment by systematically working your way through Maslow's hierarchy of needs to get to transcendence. My game plan will be to short circuit. I can respect that most people would want to do this and that this will lead to a very fulfilling life. Personally though, I've been too far down the enlightenment rabbit hole to care about self-actualising, I'm not interested in "creating maximum happiness" so this is not the game plan for me, right now I'm just trying to relieve the pain of being asleep. However, I have found a use for some self actualising theory... To assist in getting the ball rolling I will be using some personal development principals to engineer the initial motivation to do about 6 hours of strong determination sitting per day. This will be like the energy that is needed to fire up a fusion reactor before it is able to sustain itself. As Shinzen Young explains in this video, initial (egoistic) effort is required to get started but eventually the habit of meditation will meditate itself. I watched this video by Sadhguru where he explains the value of desire over discipline. If the desire is strong enough, everything falls into place on its own. *** I will be using many of the techniques outlined in the actualized.org blueprint to help me artificially ramp up my desire to extraordinary heights, and help with self discipline. I'm not going to cover all of them, but the most important ones I've identified are: Vision: I have made a vision video (in place of a vision board) that is comprised of highly emotive, action oriented clips from various TV shows and movie's that I think are relevant to what I am undertaking. I can't upload the actual video because I don't want to infringe copyright laws but it's set out as follows: Part 1 – Breaking away from consensus reality; accepting the challenge and pain that is about to come Zaheer escaping from prison from the TV show Legend of Korra Jonas being selected at the ceremony of advancement scene from the movie The Giver Tris entering fear simulation from the movie Divergent Conversation on fear and laziness from the movie Waking Life Avatar Aang receiving turtle wisdom from the TV show Avatar The Last Airbender Neo speaking with the oracle from the movie The Matrix Karl Popper messaging Trinity from the movie The Animatrix (Kids story) Chemical burn Scene and realization of ego from the movie Fight Club Wood carving scene from the beginning of the movie Into the Wild Part 2 – Battling the Ego Avatar Aang vs Firelord Ozai Neo vs Agent Smith Karl Popper being chased by Agents Edward Norton vs Tyler Durden - final fight scene Part 3 – Transcending/neutralising ego Zaheer guiding korra into the spirit world Aang energy bending the Firelord Neo's crucifixion Karl popper letting go of the handrail Edward Norton shooting himself Final scene of Into the Wild Just do it. Title speaks for itself. Take Responsibility and Victim energy My idea of responsibility has changed recently. Again, thanks to Sadhguru. I have been blessed with an uncomfortable life, taking responsibility will make me wiser sooner than others. Willpower I like this idea of limited willpower. I will be removing all my current restrictions on diet, exercise, work, entertainment, sleep patterns and all other habits. I will be directing 100% of my willpower towards my meditation. If it is true that awareness alone is curative, the awareness developed in meditation will automatically rectify my bad habits in time. This video also has some great tips for managing willpower: Other important concepts: Identity level change Nominalized identity Outcome independence Contemplate Death Embrace paradox and Epistemology Emotional Labor Momentum States vs. Stages Limiting beliefs Force your mood *** Meditation setting, tracking and reporting I will be using the insight meditation app to track my meditation hours. I will not be tracking incomplete sessions. Only sessions over 1 hour will be counted. I have not set any daily minimums. I intend to change between periods of high and low volumes of meditation but I will need to average around 6 hours a day. I will carry out my meditation on my knees directly in front of a wall. Here is a picture of me pretending to exist: I will spend 5 minutes before each session reading the journal entry of the previous 2 sessions. I will spend 5-10 minutes at the end of each session writing down the thoughts and sensations that pulled me out of awareness and into identity. I've found this helps to keep track of macro thought processes. I have already completed 21 hours as I am writing this; I spent the first session fantasising about how I would write this forum post . I wrote that down and on the second session I was no longer distracted by this thought process because I became aware of it immediately. I was then able to inquire into it and resolve it. This is the function of the meditation journal. It's not possible to do self-inquiry without awareness. I will be uploading a screen shot of my timer stats every Sunday with any notes or experiences that I wish to report. I will also calculate and upload my current daily average, to tell if I'm behind or ahead of schedule. If I am unable to upload on a Sunday then I will be uploading as soon as possible thereafter. (I have already booked 2 Vipassana retreats which will run over a week.)

Should you have the openness to carefully look at this thread, you might be able to see the micro-anatomy of a war - any war - being played out here at personal level. People wanting to be right at any cost, people hurting each other, people trying to impose their point of view, throwing words, incapable of seeing the other's value and insecurities, incapable the understand that at the other end, there is another being. This my friends, is WAR. Now @Mal & @MarkusR, do you think you could become friends? No? You cannot? Well... the wars and the hatred and the non-acceptance "out there".... look for it INside of you. If two people cannot make peace and show understanding and compassion, how can you hope that it will be achieved by entire nations? One by one, being by being, awakened beings will stop any war and suffering there is. Think about this for a moment.

if there was a real jesus, it was made into religious fanaticism for the most part, and is pretty much worthless for liberating anyone, however those awakened can see the deeper meaning of some of the text.

@charlie2dogs Yea, thats the complicated part about being "enlightened". If you become awakened, all that is is the experience, once you have had it all you can take into the dirty world or world of the mind is that memory. I think the final transition would have to be death, otherwise you are destined to stay in this persona. Do you think some people have really reached permanent enlightenment? It seems kind of out of this world, I have a feeling you would have to be very close to death if you get into that stage.

hi markus, the human identity will never know the truth of anything, the human identity is the illusion, the illusion cannot know truth. so in order to know the truth one must become the truth, and to become the truth one has to become something other than a human being identity body. the only thing left is consciousness, and to transition from the human being to a being of consciousness, is like being an invisible being with a set of eyeballs floating in space fully aware, fully conscious. existing only in the moment, as an observer of what takes place in that moment, without attachment, without the giving of attention. to experience the awakened consciousness as a being of consciousness and not the human identity is what enlightenment or self realization is, it is the realization and the experience of not functioning as the human identity. One teacher stated, I and the father are one, few have understood that, the term father that was used was representative of consciousness, and to be one with it is to be self realized. some have this idea that everyone is enlightened, that is nothing more than a newage theory. until the consciousness that became trapped in the illusion and forgot its true estate, has fully awakened and taken up its true state of being, it is only the illusion, what is rooted within consciousness is what is keeping one in the illusion. Many are primarily gathering information, speculating and making assumptions that end up becoming a belief, there is no room for a belief system with a self realized being. to be enlightened or self realized one must achieve a state of liberation, in that the consciousness is cleansed, and the being leaves the physical body as a liberated being, not as consciousness that is trapped in the illusion, still carrying all that has been rooted in it, and the human identity cannot cleanse the consciousness, it can only be done by functioning as a being of consciousness, as it then dissolves and flows away from the liberated being. an enlightened being must maintain at least one desire in order to remain grounded in this dimension. the experience of being a being of consciousness rather than a human being cannot be fully grasp until it happens and then the dream and illusion is over, in some teachings this is known as the transition from the third eye chakra to the crown chakra, there is no road map for this, no one can take you there, it requires complete surrender and that includes your belief system, programing, and warped perception of life and even your fictitious identity.

@MarkusR Its ok. I would not expect anything less than an assumption from you. Awakening is different from enlightenment. If you want to know the difference, then start paying attention to the awakened people here. And stop assuming.

None of you know what you are talking about. Understand what the Bodhisattva means. The Bodhisattva is a self realized being who doesn't see the "flaws" in others, because there are no others left to save. The purpose of the Bodhisattva is to stick around and help others awaken from the dream. That's it. Unless you're a Bodhisattva level awakened then mind your own business because you're doing more harm than good with your narrow distorted view of "their issues" (Which are really YOUR issues that you need to work on first : That's why you see them in others) If you want a real example of a Bodhisattva I think @Ayla is at that level. Read her latest offerings

Because they are YOUR distinctions. The acts are temporary. Unless you are awakened you do not know and never will know actions that are egoic vs actions that are spontaneous. Yes, even people who transcend their egos have a ton of shit to deal with. Ego is the problem you are right about that. But no ego doesn't mean perfect, it just means no ego. I challenge you to throw away the bullshit new age conception of ego and discover for yourself what your ego is. Here's an analogy: Ego is like a cork in a champagne bottle. That's why most people have one, they dare not let go incase they get accosted by moralistic little shits. I've had it with this forum, this is not a genuine self development forum

recruiting people to personal growth is sort of like proselytizing people to religion, best get your own life in order and be an example, and once fully awakened enough to know what you are doing in reality, you may choose to take on the responsibility of guiding others and sowing seeds in their minds, by then you will fully understand the consequences of those actions

it is good that your old beliefs are vanishing, wait till they are all gone, and they will, there is no place in an awakened beings life for beliefs., give some thought to the programing that you received during your life that helped to create those beliefs, i would give you one word of advice, if you dont know say i dont know and leave it along, it will visit you again, but if you make an assumption and it ends up being a belief then you are trapped. keep up the good work, all the answers you need are within your consciousness that is awakening from the dream.

@charlie2dogs I'm finished? What is this mortal kombat? Are you going to delete my account or something? How am I finished in this imaginary little scenario of yours? And the way I've talked to you? I've questioned you on content, accountability, and depth of detail. If you can't handle that, you're not going to go very far in the real world. For all your talk of being awakened and all that, you seem to lack emotional resiliency in the face of stress. And no my expectations of value from you, have been low for quite some time.

any awakened being understood the message perfectly,

@Greatnestwithin After the shift happens, the perspective will keep deepening. Leo is working on the stages of enlightenment video, that would be a cool one to see. Also, Ayla's thread "Mind Attacks After Initial Seeing' is an excellent tool to newly awakened, check it out as well:

I think when your Enlightened , you can feel that there are still low and higher self modes but because your Awakened your very aware that "it is not you" or of course you become the watcher of the emotions, thoughts or whatever like a wind passing by(you know you have no control on it, or it will not stop) you just passed it through

It's not a case of patterning. It's just that you see what he/she sees in a direct way. If somebody is enlightened liberated they see things from the Absolute. How can one not embody that? The enlightened teacher is the embodiment of the Dharma, they are not speaking from their personality. Once you tap in you speak the same things as the Buddah spoke. There is only one Buddah and he speaks the same truth in all people when awakened. It's like a fire, you take some of their fire and it starts to light inside you. The same fire Everything everybody says about liberation from the perspective of non liberation is absolute horse shit. It's fantasy. That's why I said you could watch a video, or you could actually do the real work instead of moving ideas around in the dream and making some philosophy about it.

I don't think there are people who lack a social persona. It's just someone who heavily implies that they are "awakened" would have greater self-control over thoughts and feelings and not let it cause them to lash out in such a childish way as you did. What did you call it again? Oh yea, stuck in the development stage of the "terrible two's?" And to be fair, you kind of sought this argument out after I annoyed you by constantly responding to me and acting childish in my threads. I was ready to end this cordially several times, but you kept it going. Did you get what you wanted out of this? I hope so. Man I just flung so much poop with this post. I'll be impressed if you don't respond.

To a degree I am, I am mindful of that and am trying to stop doing it, but I'm also not the one pretending to be "awakened" either. I'm neurotic as fuck, but I'm pretty self-aware of it and fully admit it. Dude thinks he's buddha or something and is just as ego driven as I am lol.

Yes..This is true, if a person lives in the dualistic world of I you we it etc are true. But "my" actual intent was to try to appeal to something else than the identity. The human identity does not know this and will see it through the victim world of duality. Victims create others victims with their rules and terms of engagement. This is why most people are not awakened, because of the matrix of polite society. So, no you have no idea what I'm doing, as you are a victim inside a social matrix siding with somebody who stroked your ego the right way, while at the same time your shadow side insults and puts down others who don't live upto your expectations. This kind of work is above your head. But emerald might be open to it. Let's see.

@TSH Chris The "somebody" can never "be" awakened. There is no somebody, the somebody is a character inside the dream Liberation is the only reality

@Mal Hi Mal. You don't think there is somebody to be awakened?

@Falk Awakening implies there is somebody to be awakened.