Tenebroso

Interesting theory, I agree that negative feeling after fapping is more energetic and spiritual/psychological than physical although there are physical consequences. Shame and guilt are a big apart of it. I think you have to really come to terms with your most private, extreme desires face them honestly and decide whether these are things you want to experience and pursue or detach from. The most attractive men on a sexual level are at peace with their desires. Awkward, shy men are ashamed of their desire, even in privacy they are constantly punishing themselves. Honesty and awareness are the keys.

The choices women make don't make a good case for having some ability to detect the true underlying emotions and essence of a person. It is a myth that harms women. What actually happens is that unattractive men are preemptively considered creepy and vilified to justify the repulsion towards them without feeling guilty. This is attributed to some intuitive superpower. There are creepy, angry, abusive, desperate men getting laid as we speak with all kinds of women. A man's sexual and romantic success has nothing to do with his morality.

Women cannot sense your desperation, anger, neediness etc silly myth that actually hurts women more than anyone else. Saying this does not do what you think it's doing. If women could sense these things the world would be a very different place. He should solve his insecurities and so called psychological issues for himself, not to make himself worthy of woman.

As long as men have this neurotic complex of needing to be a good wholesome man they will never see clearly. Women if you pay close attention to their actions are more ruthlessly pragmatic in their mating choices, while men are hopelessly romantic to their detriment. Watch their actions not what they tell you what they like. Which type of men have an abundance of women, sex etc in our current paradigm. Is it kind, gentle, vulnerable who have "done the inner work", "healed their trauma" no it's not.

Women are not naturally that charming or socially skilled in the first place, there are differences in how men and women socialize but it is a myth that they are better. Women have such a huge in-group bias towards themselves and are so coveted by men that most of the work is done for them, people will initiate for them. Unless you have status and/or extremely good looks and wealth nobody is initiating conversation with you or inviting you into their circle, you have to really build your social skills brick by brick as a man and be intentional about cultivating a social circle. Women at the very least have opportunities to build social skills by default but they never really have to learn how to initiate a conversation, be charming etc I can't remember the last time I met a charming woman my age, I have met a few over the age of 50 but there is no incentive when they are young since everything comes to them.

@CARDOZZO Watched the whole thing, it was pretty lame and I won't be reading the book. His so called insights were predictable and don't explain much. If what he said was true the dating game would look very different already, women already give themselves to men who don't embody any of these qualities. Take the average 20-35 year old man off the street and make him spend a year learning to truly love women and it would barely move the needle. These conversations are useless until there is an honest conversation about what really attracts women. My instincts for people are pretty sharp, I don't get a scammer vibe from him but I don't really buy that he even believes the message he is putting across. It is pretty easy to get women to nod their head and agree, just say things that make women look complex and virtuous, so I was not impressed with the woman again very predictable. I don't get the impression these are people who have done any real inner work or have the ability to observe their environment clearly, I could predict the whole arch of the conversation after the first five minutes. Disappointing but not surprised.

@ivankiss I like this, worded better than I ever could.

@CARDOZZO Ok, we are not going to see eye to eye. I don't like the assumptions you made about my point of view but I enjoyed the discussion with you, I am going to leave it alone for now.

@CARDOZZO I don't care about the red pill but I seek to look at reality as it is without rose tinted glasses. I want the raw truth about what drives people. I have two older sisters, my mother is the youngest of 7 women, I have female childhood friends, I have had relationships and hookups with older women when I was very young. I personally know criminals and I know blue collar men and professionals. I am responding to reality and my observations, not what someone has told me. I am 30. I have been on a self development/actualization path consciously since I was 17, meditated on and off, journaled, investigated my own dream psychology and went through a very stage green "all you need is love phase", "love is everything" etc I am speaking from the experience of having a very early dark knight of the soul aged 21 and coming out the other side with a crystal clear clarity to how I see things and 'love' while important does not do what you and others think it does. Strong, lovable, stoic, genius men who build civilizations have a place for love in their life but it is nothing to do with exuding love unconditionally. I believe men had the right approach in antiquity they had a more mature pragmatic approach to love and the different kinds of love Agape (selfless, universal love), Eros (romantic, passionate love), Philautia (self love), Philia (platonic love), Storge (familial love). From the late middle ages onwards men have had an unhealthy obsession with love and the feminine in general to the point it is warped. This obsession is easily turned to hate and misogyny ironically it is the men preaching about love the most who are the most dangerous to women. A Michelangelo obsessed with his sculpture and focused on his sistine chapel can do little to harm women, Gaudi focused on the never ending task of completing his cathedral does not hurt women nor does St.Francis Assisi focused on his inner life and selfless service. Telling young men with no real purpose, no understanding of how they could contribute to civilization to just make sure you genuinely love women would actually make women more unsafe because the natural reaction is to want some kind of positive feedback for your love, most people are not at the level of development to love unconditionally and never will be. You can't dismiss everything as red/blackpill, that is not where I am coming from. I am just not an idealist when it comes to human nature.

The issue is not whether you can love or not, the issue is whether love is really a deciding factor in the dynamic between men and women. Reality tells me it is not, your love for a woman or women as a collective does not decide their disposition towards you.

@CARDOZZO Almost feel like he is being satirical. When I go on social media I don't see women of my generation (late millennial/gen-z) cheering for men. It seems to be the complete opposite and men who show love and appreciation for women get it thrown back in their face, even sometimes being accused of manipulation and love-bombing. There is no shortage of average and unattractive men who are ready to love women but they are written off at the first step. Basically it seems all the responsibility to repair the relationship between the genders falls on men, what do women have to do better, I never hear what their responsibility is. Why is that? If what Zan Perrion says is true then why do gangsters, drug dealers, abusers etc never have trouble with women? The more terrible a man is the less issues he has attractive women. Women are being let off the hook and until we look unflinchingly at the reality of female attraction we are going to be talking in circles. While you are advocating for men to love women, women today are openly advocating for women to de-center men, essentially remove men from their lives don't read books written by men etc So what is there to love exactly?

@Salvijus My articulation is fine, don't need your approval. Again, keep it moving, won't respond to you again, pretend I don't exist.

@CARDOZZO A human's individual development does not take place in a vacuum, there is always a feedback loop the individual and the social conditions of the particular epoch they live in. I do not believe the current conditions of our civilization require men to 'love' women more. Sure, get in touch with your own inner feminine, understand your shadow, face your subconscious but as I have already said young men today especially in the west have already been raised to place women on a pedestal and it only leads to resentment, since you cannot control the outcome of the other. True love comes from a position of strength which most men are lacking today. Men are listless, confused, indecisive they are not grounded enough to truly love, messages like the one from the book you are quoting sound good on paper but won't help. The modern young women as a vessel would not know how to receive such a man.

@Salvijus Whatever bro, keep it moving.

Going to be brutally honest. This is straight garbage that would lead young men into an even deeper hole than they are in already. The feminine is not that special period.

They want physically attractive men who also have some kind of social power in a context relevant to them and their interest. If women did not care about physical attractiveness, paternity fraud would not exist, genetic fitness is very important to women but they evolved to conceal their true sexuality and the most genetically fit (attractive men) are not always the most socially acceptable.

@NoSelfSelf I agree love between a man and woman is possible but you shouldn't seek or yearn for it as a man. Dedicate yourself to a cause, craft or ideal. If love appears great, if not even better but loving women beyond having the basic respect for another human being is another trap and red herring for men. I would go as far as saying the obsession with loving and possessing women actually causes more misogyny than a respectful indifference. If you build up the feminine to be this thing which must be cherished and adored it will trigger anger in you if does not respond in the way you wish. Young men don't need to love women more, they need to let go of women, let go of any expectations of them, give them space.....

Loving women has nothing to do with attracting them. If women feel misogyny very easily, how do they end up with abusers, murderers, all round terrible men so frequently. Actually the more amoral a man, the less likely he is to have trouble attracting women. If incels were as bad as people make them out to be ironically they would have no trouble attracting women, the truth is that unattractive men are vilified to justify the instinctual repulsion towards them.

I would say to the OP don't worry about it, it's not in your hands. As you get older as a guy you develop your own intuition for when someone is really receptive to you, it's unmistakable and once you experience that you don't even acknowledge or really interact with the closed off women.

Interesting that the actually dangerous men seem to consistently surpass the feminine intuition and boundaries, while more self conscious harmless men come across as creepy.

I don't think new age women are any less narcissistic in this era. Modern life encourages a toxic relating style and overpowers any apparent self-development. The most narcissistic men do the best with women all types of women including new age types.

Put morality aside and the self image of being a nice good person, it means very little. Focus on attaining inner clarity and finding a way to express your inner work outwardly.

Most men are invisible to women, they don't really see you, you either blend in or don't exist.

@Amit Not being able to vote, have a bank account, being ostracised by a certain age for not being attached. Social structures that ensured dependence on men and allowed many men who naturally wouldn't attract women to have wives and families. Now with those barriers removed we see women find the vast majority of most men unattractive on all levels, even money and status are not as powerful anymore they don't overpower instinctive repulsion in women who have a choice and can make their own money.

I would say your instincts are actually right counter to most responses in this thread but you would develop a healthier understanding if you actually had a couple of relationships. However, it's true for the vast majority of men the juice is not worth the squeeze. The anomaly in social dynamics that the industrial revolution produced fooled all men into thinking they should and would have a mate for just existing. There are healthy paths you can take while decentering romantic relationships and women. However you must be radically honest with yourself.