mr_engineer
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Posts posted by mr_engineer
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Now, I'm going to share the biggest challenge with this from male perspective.
In the 1950s, there was religion, i.e. a belief in God by default. So, through the Bible (or your religious scripture), 'God' defined 'family'. This is important, because if God says that you are meant to be together in a certain configuration which God calls 'family', it would give you a sense of purpose that is strong enough for you to defend your family from a tiger, at the risk of your own life. And, 'God' laid down the rules for how a 'family' should be run. Then, when you followed those moralistic rules and did those religious rituals, you were being 'good' in the eyes of 'God' and for that, you would get a sense of 'family' or 'belonging'.
Then, what happened is that technology made progress, because of which people's minds started to become more scientific and intellectual, and less dogmatic. They started to question the concept of 'God', they became atheistic. So, factor #1 - no more 'God'. And, when you reject the concept of God that comes from religion, you start to disagree with the religious definition of 'family'! Meaning, the single-family household, the rules your parents made you follow in your religious upbringing start to be a problem for you. Up until this point, we're fine.
The problem, now, is that we don't have a 'right definition of family'. Because of which, when we date, we don't know what we're trying to construct! We say 'we have emotional-needs, we have these boundaries, we have these dreams and goals and aspirations and these elaborately intricate definitions of compatibility' but in reality, will that result in a 'sense of family'? Which is exceedingly important, because only when you have God telling you that you're meant to be together, will you be willing to make sacrifices to be together. Only then will the commitment be strong! Or else, the commitments will stay loose.
And, obviously, if there is no sense of family that's coming out of your dating-experiences and this results in weak commitments, this will result in the 'shame' that you talk about in the OP and all of the problems that come from that.
Now, how do we fix this? Let's say we get a newer, more non-dual, spiritual definition of 'God'. I'm assuming that you have some degree of enlightenment. Now, given this definition of 'God', what societal structure would work better than the single-family household to create a sense of family?
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1 hour ago, Emerald said:There’s deeper intimacy, cuddling, sex, parenthood and lots of other subtle dynamics that can only be had with a male partner as opposed to a friend.
Except for parenthood, all of these can be had with a friend. Or, a 'friends-with-benefits', so to speak.
1 hour ago, Emerald said:And I don’t see why provision would be off the table as something men are valued for after Feminism.
I personally prefer a dynamic of mutual contribution in a relationship. But that’s still provision.
A big shadow of the patriarchy is that if women don't have equal rights, men have to provide for the family and if a man does that successfully, he can be assured that she will stay, she won't leave. And he will be valued for providing. Providing was 'enough' for a man to be valued by a woman, before feminism.
I'm not saying that women getting equal rights is a bad thing, by any means. Women should absolutely have professional skills and the ability to survive on their own in the modern world. Having said that, feminist women have swung the pendulum to the opposite extreme, where they want to be 'boss babes'. Meaning, this idea of 'women being independent and doing everything alone' is really being glorified. This makes the 'mutual contribution' thing unappealing to a man who wants to be valued as a provider.
1 hour ago, Emerald said:It’s just the sense that I don’t have to do it all alone and that I have someone to share life with. And that I have someone that I can rely on for help if I need it. It’s a feeling of relaxation knowing I don’t have to deal with things alone and that I don’t have to struggle against life by myself.
It’s the closeness, affection, companionship, and mutual support that I value the most. And I prefer that dynamic with a man.
Now, here's the tricky part.
You could get this with any conscious man. Any conscious man recognizes that connection and companionship are needs in him and in others and you can have it with him.
Why should one individual stand out from another for you? What would result in a genuine strengthening of the relationship? How does he know that the relationship with you is secure? Isn't he replaceable?
By the same token, he can also get these things with any conscious woman. Aren't you also replaceable?
Wouldn't the commitment stay loose, in reality, if these are your most important deciding-factors with a man?
What would make you stay with an individual man long-term? How would you choose between two men who can give you this type of relationship?
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35 minutes ago, Emerald said:To explain this we have to see how the current societal structure isn’t working towards pro-social ends.
We all live in fractured off single-family households without a strong sense of community. And those single-family households easily break apart.
So, we’re living in a very fractured lonely time period which only gets worse with social media because we’re not socializing in person. And everyone’s running a rat race just to make ends meet and doesn’t have energy to engage in community.
But the reality that I’ve noticed is that people need each other. Not just on a task level… but on a connection level.
So, husbands and wives still rely on one another to contribute to the household and children. It’s nearly impossible to do it alone.
But more so that that, there is a deep-seated connection need that we have for the people in our lives.
Agreed.
44 minutes ago, Emerald said:And many (probably most) women need a connection with a long term male partner to feel like their social/emotional needs are fulfilled.
What are those social/emotional needs? Which ones can be met by a male friend and which ones do you need a long-term male partner for?
27 minutes ago, Emerald said:But overall, men might feel the most unneeded if he lacks a feeling of contribution to a relationship, family, or wider community. Or if he feels like his contributions aren’t acknowledged.
Define 'contribution'.
It was 'providing for a family' in the past. After feminism, that's not an acceptable definition anymore. So, what does 'contribution' mean, practically?
29 minutes ago, Emerald said:But the number one thing a man can do to offset this is to be in community and relationships with those who value him.
Define 'value'. What value do men hold, in a world after feminism?
If you could answer this question, it would help with the shame.
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@Emerald Alright. I understand the problems you're presenting and I agree with you. You are right.
Now, let's be solution-oriented.
First, I would like to posit that men can't do this on their own, amongst each other. We will need help from conscious women to resolve this. It's not just because men can't learn to feel and process emotions on their own. That we are actually capable of. Where we need your help, is in figuring out where we fit into society. Let me explain.
With feminism came a wave of 'female independence'. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, this is a good thing. However, a side-effect of this, a cost that men had to pay for this, is that men lost their role in the family as a 'provider'. And, in relationships with women and children, men need to feel useful. Because if the man isn't useful, he will start to feel insecure in his ability to keep women and children in his life. Individually, every man's life is different but collectively, if we want to understand these big waves of 'misogynistic' movements, this factor cannot be ignored.
Unconscious women cannot figure this out, because they don't see themselves as responsible for society at large, much less men's problems. The whole point of feminism, under the surface-level ideology of 'equality', is to show men a big middle-finger after the 'oppression' that happened 70 years ago. We can sense it. But, conscious women, who have their own shit sorted to the degree that they are capable of doing something for society, should intuit that this is something worth their attention.
Here is my question for you - now that the patriarchy is effectively done and we have a more 'civilized', 'equal' society, where do men fit in?
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What I'm gathering from what you've written, is that the problem is the existence of the masculine ideal that these men are striving to embody.
I have a few questions for you.
- Would it be better if they had a different masculine ideal to aspire to? If so, what would a better value-system be?
- Should there be a masculine ideal to aspire to? Or, is the existence of the ideal in and of itself the source of shame, so if we had a different masculine ideal, they would have a different source of shame?
- Should men have a goal to get laid? Or, is that a part of the coping-mechanism with shame? In other words, is male sexuality fundamentally a problem?
- You say that 'if the issues with shame were resolved, the problems making connections would go away'. How would that work? What is a 'man' in your eyes, how would these men express themselves in a way that would be attractive to women, after resolving their shame?
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7 hours ago, Seed said:Just curious, baring in my gender differences that are so often discussed in here.
There is no other reason to have a gender-preference for your child, other than self-bias.
So, when you ask us this question, what you're really saying is that you want to know our biases!
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Just now, Asia P said:@mr_engineer no I don't want at all
In that case, consider the possibility that your hormones are going wild when you meet other attractive men, because you're a teenager. When you cross 20, you will not regret not breaking up with X/going on some wild goose chase for someone you haven't met in person.
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Do you see yourself having a baby with Y? Is it a possibility?
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11 minutes ago, Asia P said:the problem is that I want both, why I can't be free to love two instead of one?
In theory, there is no reason you can't be free to love two.
In practice, though, a relationship involves more than just sex. It's an attachment-relationship. And, compatible attachment-figures are few and far between. They're not replaceable. That's why I stand for monogamy.
I'm biased towards monogamy. If polyamory is something you authentically want, then I'm the wrong person to ask. I just think that the 'monogamy vs polyamory' question is too heavy for an 18-year-old, so I'd suggest trying to make monogamy work until you're 25. Then, if you still feel called towards polyamory, by all means, go for it!
13 minutes ago, Asia P said:btw if I have to choose I'll choose x immediately, but x is also my confort zone, and make a choice will make me in part unhappy of course bc I'm also in love with y and I want him to be my friend. (I don't see a future together with y, also bc he is very far from me)
In that case, don't break up with X.
Now, if you're attracted to other men, this means that X is not doing it for you, he's unable to give you what you want. So, I'd suggest you voice this to X and improve your relationship with him.
18 minutes ago, Asia P said:I want to be free, and my ideal choice will be to deal with both of them, not with just x. The point is, is this a crazy idea? am in being just a fool?
Whose baby would you want to have? That's a good question to ask yourself, when you choose! It will also show you the pitfalls of polyamory and why monogamy is so popular.
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Who reminds you more of your father? X or Y? And, in which ways?
Once you figure this out, look at analogous patterns in your childhood relationship with your father. Then, make up your mind as to whether you want to keep the pattern or discard it! And, get help from the guy who's involved in that pattern in the present-day, do this work on your relationship.
At age 18, who you choose is less important. What's more important, is for you to understand what 'family' means to you, and to construct that kind of relationship. Whoever fits into that definition of 'family' can stay in your life.
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As said at 2:30, be a 'good bad boy'!
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9 minutes ago, Zen LaCroix said:Lots of women enjoy sex that is rough and degrading both physically and verbally where they are made to feel like a sexual object
No, that's domination and submission. Submission is natural to femininity, but objectification will feel unsafe to a feminine woman. Usually, there is in-depth communication about turn-ons, turn-offs and building of trust between them for the woman to consent to this kind of sex. This is the opposite of objectification, where there's no communication, you're just acting on your impulses.
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6 minutes ago, Zen LaCroix said:Of course they're thinking with their dicks. Pick up is about getting sex. We are not approaching women to read the bible with her (generally)
Right. Now, from female perspective, the problem is that the objectification is the cause of a lot of trauma for them.
6 minutes ago, Zen LaCroix said:I've realized everybody has different levels of ethics and what they consider bad or good. I feel as though as long as you are not forcing a girl to do something she doesn't want or using blackmail or coercion then your actions are ethical
I agree with you.
Now, having said that, the concern of how conscious you're being, is a very different one from how ethical you're being. As long as you're following the law, you're being ethical. (You can be an ethical, peace-loving narcissist!) But, if you want that the sexual-experience actually feels good to her, if you don't want to be a part of the problem of unconsciousness in PUAs, that's a totally different ballgame. Now, narcissism will not fly.
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42 minutes ago, Zen LaCroix said:Not necessarily true. If a guy doesn't know how to talk to women and can't get a girlfriend he has to learn
Right, so there are other ways to learn. Like, going to meetups, going to social events, going to concerts, talking to women at work, etc. Why pick-up? Why random women on the street? It's not obvious.
Then, when you look farther into it, you realize that they're thinking with their dicks. They see a hot woman, their dick gets hard and now, instead of channeling their sexual-energy into their work, they go 'me want to fuck, me go talk to strange woman'. It is kinda objectifying, if we're going to be honest, to make the decision to pursue a woman just because of the way she looks.
This is the practical reality of pick-up. Now, you may say 'not necessarily, what if she made eye-contact with him and they had an instant connection? Shouldn't he know how to convert that?' What I'm talking about is the norm, this would be the edge-case.
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35 minutes ago, Zen LaCroix said:You assume that women want commitment when a lot then want to sleep around and have some fun. What do you think "hot girl summer" and "hoe phase" are referring too
As I said, in theory, there is a way to do pick-up ethically and there is nothing fundamentally unethical about pick-up. In practice, though, the big thing driving PUAs is insecurity about their attractiveness, which they try to cover up by building a body-count. The whole body-count thing is an ego-boost for PUAs and using women as a tool for this ego-pursuit is definitely unethical.
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It's not pick-up itself that's low-consciousness, it's that the pick-up community right now is littered with unconscious individuals with shallow motivations. Most of them are players who only want to get laid, who don't want to commit to women. This is a selfish approach to dating and it causes women a lot of trauma.
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There is a possibility that I will meet my sales-targets next month. And, if I do, I will be all set to achieve financial-freedom in 1 year! I won't be rich yet, my life will be simple and frugal. But, I will be free!
Leo and actualized.org will have a big role in this achievement. Thank you all for being the support that you are!
Wish me luck.
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6 hours ago, Consept said:@mr_engineer so you're saying you shouldn't follow his advice? Or that it rarely works, im not getting your overall point
I'm saying that there can be better definitions for 'frame' than what he's describing and that if we hold onto this definition of 'frame', we can only get a 'good girl', who is essentially a 'yes-man'. Feminists will say that you're 'toxically masculine' and 'good girls' will think that you have 'strong frame', until the day you make a mistake. Then the RAS-flip will happen and all bets are off when it comes to the future of the relationship.
In order to come up with a better definition of 'frame', first, you have to figure out what you have to offer to women. Meaning, which love-language can you speak! Then, you can hold 'frame' in that love-language. And secondly, you have to understand why women are looking for a man with 'strong frame'. The reason for that is that they feel unsafe in the world and they need a man to protect them. Now that you know this, you can come up with a definition of 'frame' that falls within your love-language! So, if it's words of affirmation, then it makes sense to be ideological in your 'frame'. If it's quality-time, then the way you hold frame, is by giving her focused presence. If it's physical-touch, then maybe the way you hold frame is by giving a hug or cuddling. If it's gifts, then the way you hold frame is by having shared experiences and then gifting her a memento of that experience. If it's acts of service, then the way you hold frame is by working on something together and leading that team-project.
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What he means by 'frame', is actually ideology. You have to have a self-serving ideology in which 'you're a 10'. Some will call this grandiose narcissism. I think it's fine to think that you're the shit as long as your rationale is grounded in reality. Cuz there is a danger of buying your own BS with this frame-stuff (or at least, the way they're defining 'frame').
Now, about the RAS-flip - this will happen with 'good girls', or girls who could earn the approval of their fathers. Is this a problem? Yes, it is irrational and biased to only pay attention to the 3% where someone messes up and not to the 97% where they do well. We can all agree on that. The question is - why do they do this?
Before I give my answer, I will talk about Owen's rationalization for it. He's saying that 'it's a defense-mechanism to stop them from getting impregnated by a 'beta-male''. The question, though, is - what is a 'beta-male'?! If you can just decide to be an 'alpha', in your mind, you're the 'alpha'. But then, why is she deciding that you're the 'beta' and why is she flipping on you the moment you lose frame?
This is not something that should obviously happen with all women. Because, some women are smart! Some women are rational, they can weigh the facts and make a rational decision and give some margin for error. So, what kind of woman will this happen with? And why?
This will happen with 'good girls'. Their father 'held frame' in a certain way for them. So, now, when you 'hold frame' like that for them, they will be attracted to that. Now, here's the thing - the way they related to their fathers, is that they earned his approval and he gave it to them. And, in the process of earning his approval, they gave up certain aspects of themselves, that would have been disapproved of! They hold this resentment towards their fathers, it's a daddy-issue. But, they can't confront their fathers on this, because the father is going to tell them how many sacrifices he made to raise them and how his morality is actually a 'hard-learned lesson of his life', they can't win this argument with their fathers. Now, in the situation with you, when you 'break frame', they're going to perceive it as you not making those sacrifices that their father made to keep frame! So, their resentment towards their father will show up in that moment and will make them rationalize it as 'If he isn't making this sacrifice for me, why should I make these sacrifices?! Let's bias ourselves against him and rebel against him and do the RAS-flip!!' That's why they do the RAS-flip in that specific situation.
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About your OP - don't build castles in the air. Real life is very practical, very hands-on. And, notice that most people don't realize their Life-Purpose. The reason for that is that they have bills to pay and they simply don't have time to explore different things.
So, I'd suggest that you set some high ambitions for yourself in terms of success and be willing to work hard to achieve those ambitions. Then, you will have enough time and energy in the future to explore these other interests of yours! They can be hobbies. But, the point of work is to make money and the point of a Life-Purpose is to make a unique contribution to the world.
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9 hours ago, Curious_classic said:@mr_engineer I'm a barber and I'm about to get into ecommerce, I don't hate both but I think it's meaningless work for me, i can do better.
First of all, drop writing. It does not look like you have an aptitude for writing.
Now, if you are a barber, here's what I would strongly recommend - you learn about hairstyles, you get into hairstyling. You develop some sort of expertise in hairstyling.
Also, follow some social-media trends when it comes to hairstyles. Maybe make Instagram-content and if you want to build some E-commerce skills/digital-marketing skills, do that for the hair-salon you work at first. Then, maybe in the future, you could go to California to make it as a hairstylist in Hollywood or something.
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@Curious_classic What do you currently do?
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2 minutes ago, Oso said:Interesting points. One of the problems with this being an online thing is the inability to verify these things properly. It's kinda like determining whether you like someone or not based on their dating profile, it doesn't work too well.
It's just common sense. There are reasons why women get into OnlyFans.
2 minutes ago, Oso said:What do you mean by what they're selling is fake?
Some of them will make ASMR videos and shit, in which they're selling a character to you based on your fantasies. All of that is fake! All of their branding is fake.
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15 minutes ago, Oso said:What is stopping me from going beyond this mode of communication? Perhaps into the territory of a genuine relationship?
Lol, there's nothing 'genuine' about the way they relate to men. What they're selling is all fake anyways.
16 minutes ago, Oso said:Q: How might I go about breaking her out of the professional relationship mode? To have her show interest in something outside of getting money?
They have faced a lot of bullshit from men. In their experience, men are narcissists who think with their dicks. On top of that, the men paying their bills are 'incels who live in their mom's basement and can't get a real girl', in their eyes. They do not have a very healthy relationship with men in general. They are traumatized individuals.
If you really want to do this, I'd advise you to start with empathizing with their traumas. Having said that, I would not hold my breath. Because, if she only wants your money, she herself is a narcissist. So, even if she 'shows interest in something else', she's going to be empty on the inside, which will make her unloving on the outside.
in Dating, Sexuality, Relationships, Family
Posted · Edited by mr_engineer
Is it a 'sense of family'? And, if it is, what would that be based on?
Define 'support'.
'Personality' changes with time. Even who you are on the inside changes with time. The 'flavor' will also change with time.
What will keep you committed to him long-term? Forget about whether he's stable/secure, what would make you stable/secure?
What's 'you'? Who are 'you'?
'You' are such a complex topic that you've probably written 10 journals about yourself. So, which aspect of 'you' is he supposed to 'love'? And, what is 'love'?
That is correct.
But, they will choose whom to bond with, solely on the basis of transactional need! It may not be physical needs or logistic needs, it will be emotional-needs.
Define 'commitment'. Commitment to do what?
Define 'investment'. Investing what?
These were well-defined before feminism, when men's job was to provide.
No matter how much love a man feels for you, commitment will always be a rational decision for him. (If he is high-quality and smart and he understands the stakes.) There are life-altering consequences based on who you commit to, it's a high-stakes decision for your life.
Is it his job to make your life happy?