BlueOak

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  1. Posted · Edited by BlueOak

    Success is your ability to integrate contrast, pain, and discomfort. It will bring you plenty of bad moods.
    It is also about choosing to become that which you are in resistance, to or choosing to become something else. There is no exact choice and no correct mood in regard to personal development.
     

     

     

  4. Posted · Edited by BlueOak

    2 hours ago, zurew said:

    I don't think you are showing a difference there.  A rational , logical and clear answer doesn't presuppose that others cant contribute to it or adapt to it further. 

    Also you seem to be making rational and clear answers exclusive to stage yellow and that seems to be a mistake.

    Again it's not so much a difference but a refinement. The differences get more subtle. A very yellow mind can be more rigid in its reasoning, not all the way orange but it's still there. Turquoise would still contain yellow's balance of logic but inevitably balance emotion and social collaboration more closely with it.

    I am often Yellowish so this is a partially yellow view trying to reach inward a bit more.

    Stage yellow doesn't require a direct collective concurrence or collaboration, it is much more individual in nature. While it draws on everything available to it, including every relevant expert or experience, it can be made and focused solely on your own conclusion.

    Stage turquoise's main difference for me is it requires working with other's directly, if I could put it down in a nutshell.

    What I am observing in this conversation is us (when I say you I also mean me) attempting to cross from yellow to turquoise with an understanding of it, by reflecting off each other, and I use opportunities to also contribute to the collective discourse when I can. Guided by emotion and logic equally and best done in the presence of others. This is not a perfect definition or summary, but finding the collaboration easier and more free-flowing is a good sign when I am in that space.
     

    2 hours ago, zurew said:

    SD is about cognitive development, the notion of a stage yellow / turquoise answer or question seems to be a category error. I don't think it makes sense to categorize answers and questions in terms of spiral dynamics or to make certain questions or answers exclusive to a given stage

    Then this is where the flaw in the thread lays. People trying to categorize something that evolves from or is already present in the other.
     

    2 hours ago, zurew said:

    I think the question of preferred communication norms (like expecting  clear breakdown of a given concept from the other party or a preference for a more poetic and open-ended breakdown of things) isn't directly relevant to answer the question of what is turquoise or what is the theory of turquoise.

    It's indicative from what I've seen. I know when I am at my most systemic reasoning, that frame of mind necessitates a certain colder logical approach. When I am in more harmony with the group I am with, emotions come into focus more, and that alters the experience I am having.

  5. Posted · Edited by BlueOak

    15 hours ago, Peo said:

    So when i approach a girl, she will tell me she has a boyfriend, but she keeps smiling and staring at me for a long time. Even when i run out of things to talk about. No way she is intrested when she has a boyfriend right. Then she will want me to hug her. Then she invite me to hang out with her and her friends. So what does it mean? Any insights into this behaviour.

    Btw this was during the night at a saturday and friday. 

    Touch contact is good and eye contact is a clear sign, but a hug can just be friendly. I need to see her to be sure. Is she blushing, touching her hair, playing with her earrings, turning her body towards you in a group, focusing on you above all others in the group, smiling all the time etc.?

    Don't go the friend route, it's never a Disney movie outcome. If you are okay taking a shot with a woman who has a boyfriend, hang out, keep it casual, and see if she reciprocates. You allow space for it to happen for a short time, then if it continues and builds up ask her casually if there is something there, but don't be a friendzoned guy who is buying her everything or chasing for weeks. 

    Friends rarely ever become lovers. But people sleep with people in relationships all the time (especially this generation), just be ready for the fallout if that's what you are doing.

  6. Posted

    6 hours ago, zurew said:

    No clue what any of that means.

    If you list a set of things that is compatible with both yellow and turquoise ,then you are not really laying out the difference between the two.  

    This is why I asked you guys to lay out unique turquoise characteristics and then make an argument for why those things are incompatible with yellow. 

    Let's see if I can respond in a different way.

    I can answer in a logical, rational way that draws on everything I personally can surmise or calculate would be effective. This would be yellow in nature.

    I can answer in a way that draws on everyone's contribution to the thread, and then encourage them to adapt or further what I've said to create your answer. This would be turquoise.

    The way you are phrasing the question is yellow in nature. I am trying to answer in a turquoise way. Incompatibilities are less frequent the further you go along the spiral dynamics model, because all stages are accepted and brought into balance. There would only be subtle incompatibilities, but I wouldn't even call them that—just differences that might cause mild friction between the approaches—a bit like we are having here. The friction or incompatibilities often drive the development of someone's consciousness or mind.

    You would like a list format. That's clear, easy to model, comprehensive, and direct. That's distinctly yellow. What you are asking for is in itself taking you out of a turquoise frame of mind. You would like an argument as to why incompatibilities exist when the very purpose is to do the opposite, I would have to argue against the model itself to complete that request. (Which I can do to play devil's advocate but the answer would negate itself).

    The very premise of the thread is yellow in nature. The problem I perceive with it and within myself is how to effectively engage a collective answer within an individual reply.

  7. Posted · Edited by BlueOak

    2 hours ago, hyruga said:

    All these stages are defined based on your preferred understanding and your own standards. 

    For example, some people consider Tony Robbins as a stage orange guy who is also successful and who also helps many people. 

    Others would consider his actions (feeding America) as Turquoise level since he fed more than a billion people to date: https://www.feedingamerica.org/partners/current-promotions/1-billion-meals#:~:text=The 1 Billion Meals Challenge,Join the challenge today! But then he's only feeding American, not the whole world, not animals. How many people have you fed to date?

    Then some would consider him at yellow stage since they perceived that he has not reached higher levels of spiritual development. Everything is based on whatever you want to perceive.

     

    Different patterns and behaviors inside an individual and/or community or peer-group relate to different stages.

    While it's true that you can pull a stage out of another, like opening a box, we use the model to highlight certain characteristics that are the main focus of that stage. We can point to a man or woman and say most of what I see is this in your behaviors, but it isn't their totality or potential.

    As @Buck Edwards said all potential is already present in a baby, because we are infinity. 

    Picture light splitting through a lens to give you many colors and vision. That is how we see earth. This is the same with potential through the collective or individual.

  8. Posted · Edited by BlueOak

    2 hours ago, zurew said:

    To me , it seems when people pushed to provide a differentiation between yellow and turquoise, they seem to be using gibberish concepts and they cant really lay out in a clear way what the difference actually is.

    Challenge for someone who thinks there is a clear difference - Provide a set of characteristics which is incompatible with yellow and make a further argument where you establish why that set is incompatible with it.

    Sure.

    Yellow requires your rationalization to be satisfied by clear definition for an individual framing.
    Turquoise requires the attention of the community reading the thread and a mutual effort.

    We are using gibberish (less structured, more theoretical) concepts because:

    1, It's less defined
    2, It's less understood.
    3, Its naturally more fluid when defined because it's a collective approach.

    I still contend that each stage is inside the other because each stage evolved out of the other. So incompatibilities don't have to exist, the opposite would likely be easier to list.

  9. Posted · Edited by BlueOak

    On 30/09/2024 at 2:44 PM, eTorro said:

    Hello.

    After you awaken by transcending the ego, there's just awareness. Emotions no longer intrude—just consciousness remains. You're no longer stuck in a narrow chamber of thoughts. Your mind gets quiet. There's only inner stillness left.

    But you're still in a body that needs food. You're still in the world, even though you're not of it— for your interest in it has vanished. There are material things you see. People on the streets. You have a job. And you need money to buy practical things.

    But now? What's next? Because I've lost interest in material things.

    How can I enjoy life? Should I redefine my life's purpose now? Or just exist? Like just being.

    Any thoughts? Or guidance?

    Emotions and Logic are two necessary parts of human existence to balance in harmony.

    Don't reject your'self'. (Or any reflections for that matter).

    Seek out an infinite love experience, set the intent and see the other side of the coin is my advice. 
    To do that you practice gratitude, joy and love toward all things for an extended period of time, till your reality reflects it and you have a moment where you become it entirely.
     

  10. Posted

    Possibly the second theater of WW3. The third being Taiwan.

    Every war gives other countries more political capital and the expectation to do their own. 

    The more things change, the more they stay the same. The only thing that changes is the method and the people.

    Hard push authoritarian right.
    Appeasement of dictators.
    Slow response of liberal democracies to combat authoritarian influence within their own borders.
    Hatred of immigrants.
    Recissions as global order destabilizes.
    Fascism is on the rise. 
    War Breeds War.

    Not too late to turn it around, we'll see.

  12. Posted · Edited by BlueOak

    The right will just keep tightening the screws on the symptoms while doing nothing to address the causes. Always the same. It grabs headlines I suppose and will put fear into people trying to cross. This scenario is a typical overreach for headlines from authoritarian personalities who require the image to stay in power.

    Shooting people has no more or less effect than imprisonment, deportation, or sending them away. It's not as if we will run out of migrants any time soon. It will dissuade people from approaching the fence directly and make them more desperate. Hunger, war, climate change, disease, safety, poverty, corruption/crime, drought, flooding etc will still cause migration. It will increase the chance of a violent encounter(s), perhaps a border skirmish, and a general cooling of relations with neighboring countries (but we have that anyway).

  14. Posted · Edited by BlueOak

    16 hours ago, Davino said:

    @BlueOak Conversations on psychology, sociology, history, sexuality, philosophy... All of these topics are so much easily discussed with AI than with humans. It's so much more intelligent, knowledgeable and flexible, you can go so deep with it. In contrast, forum conversations in these topics are usually defending my point of view and rationalising over it. The attitude coming in here should be a desire for truth and being able to leave behind everything that you know in case new evidence is found. Even if this were the case and the attitude is right, most people have serious flaws in their sense making and understanding of the world. I know it because I've invested so much time in discriminating them in my mind and there's still a tone more work to do. In a way it's refreshing talking with AI because you get in contact with a higher mind whose understanding of the world is sharp, nuanced and multiperspectival.

    Everyone is you. All the reflections, are directly you.

    An AI can indirectly prepare you to integrate with these pieces, and they with you, but you'll never have a normalized understanding of what you'll be interacting with day to day. If you focus too much on how it differs, it'll be of less and less use in these areas.

    Question: Why are you defending anything so much? What inside you feels the need?
    Question: What makes you believe a universal truth exists on most (or even many) things.
    Question: Why is detail or interconnectedness 'higher' than a dog barking at a threat?
    Question: Why do you need to answer all questions? (Sorry playing with the ego a bit here to help.)

    Flaws are flaws because you've decided they are. They are inherently nothing but a reflection, and they'll bother you less when they bother you less.

    I do agree the AI is great at certain things. And we need each other to make a collective reality in harmony. (Correcting flaws as you put it, spotting those might be the very reason you are part of the community)

  15. Posted · Edited by BlueOak

    5 hours ago, mmKay said:

    Ok but wth does that actually mean? Concern for humanity as a whole but in a pragmatic LP way rather than a hippy "peace and love" way?

    An example: Treating this entire conversation as the reply you make, not a singular reply you focus on.

    That would be looking at the collective response and trying to contribute to it. I know all parts make the collective, just like all stages are inside each other, and all people too, but if we are looking at a collective inside an individual, that's a direct example.

     

    10 hours ago, Nivsch said:

    Dealing with the shadows, emotional and psychological difficulties will force you to undergo the neurological and cognitive changes that will elevate you through the stages.

    The values and communal expressions of a given stage are just byproducts of this.


    I agree, all stages make the next, as with all individuals and their collective pieces make the community. I was in the process of experimenting with wording as a byproduct.

    If we always look at our'self' and how it fits into the community. That is always individual first, community second on that filter.
    If we look at the community first and how we can fit the community into our'self' isn't that a more direct way?

    I know community = self and any distinction is an illusion, but language can be useful to reinforce ideas and concepts into the collective.

  16. Posted

    Lack of understanding of who/what you are.

    Fight - Flight - Freeze States or Triggers. Trapped traumas and Anxiety.
    Lack of willingness to endure pain/contrast between the change you want and where you are.
    Lack of willingness to go through the trials needed to remake you into that person.

    Emotional States.
    Focus. 
    Your current patterns, including behavior and the above two.
    Peer-Group.
    Environment.
    Social Norms.
    Culture.
    Media reinforcement over your reflected local community.
    Relative prices and expenses.
    Ideology and Idealising.
    Overdone Sentimentality.
    Narcissism.
    Lack of structure.
    Eating and sleeping habits, general health etc.

  17. Posted · Edited by BlueOak

    14 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

    @Carl-Richard Why to look for clues in others external

    That would be a requirement of the stage correct? The integration of your self-concept with the whole in the harmony of all the stages before it?

    *edit (You see how this is still framed as an individual let me flip it)

    The integration of the community with the self. That's better.

  18. Posted · Edited by BlueOak

    @Lila9

    Its fun to know that science was once one of the mystery schools :) opening that one up led to a lot of development, it would be interesting to have more of them taught generally, which is what is in part being argued (against and for) here I feel underneath it all. That argument is as old as time and probably older.

    To embody turquoise more fully, I would need to follow the communal nature of this conversation.

    1) An overbalance of faith and mysticism is suggested in a definition of turquoise.
    2) A rebuttal of that, and speaking to look outward more to individuals already there for communal grounding. (A necessity of the stage)
    3) A look at morality and development (of what I'll refer to as communal ethics) and a reminder that stages can embody elements of the other (touching coral there)
    4) Implication that any present definition of Coral as an illusion (all reality is so that tracks).
    5) Similar suggestions made about turquoise, and a rebuttal to not conflate the model with non-duality.
    6) An assessment that values don't dictate a level of consciousness, and a description of spiral dynamics as being systemic (I'll say Yellow) in nature.

    I do feel SD does not adequately represent turquoise as not enough of humanity is there to model it on—certainly not Coral. This means not enough of me is there yet to understand it fully, or any of you unless your reality is reflecting much more information.

    I also have the nagging understanding that all these stages are already present within each other, and unfolded almost into the next, which this conversation touches on. It's not so much a stack of stages but a shape that keeps expanding. Turquoise would have to contain mysticism as much as it would environmental concerns, financial concerns, individuality, faith, survival, communal harmony, and systemic modeling etc. Keeping this communally focused: If any of these are rejected within the community, that's an unintegrated part of the community.

  19. Posted

    3 hours ago, Davino said:

    I've been reflecting about the value per time invested I get from the Forum. The more I've been developing myself over the years the less juicy content I've found.

    Honestly speaking, most of the questions asked here are better contemplated using AI. Pick any topic and discuss with it. It's been kind of disillusioning to find out this truth. I hardly have insightful conversations with other humans anymore. I prefer my own contemplations, talking with AI or discussing with Leo sparely.

    This has made me reflect on the role this Forum and all forums will take in future times: where AI is ever more intelligent, mature and open-minded.

    What reflection is more useful to you?

    Man or Machine?

    I just spent two hours calculating path commands with it for freecad.
    It would be less useful in finding equilibrium on social issues.

    It can be useful in better-defining positions, but not establishing them communally, or gauging the genuine reactions present from a community.

    Its a fantastic stage yellow creation and it makes me excited for what great minds will create when they next level up.

     

  22. Posted

    On 20/07/2024 at 8:44 PM, Findus said:

    If you were stuck in this particular reality, why would you care about alternate realities and the possibility of infinity?

    You will never experience the infinity of the universe in this life, because your life (i.e., your memory) is limited to this place; it is limited to an average of 70-90 years. Yes, you will be reborn as something else all together eventually, but all the progress in spiritual endeavours will be lost and it is unlikely that you will respawn in an entity that has the same potential for spiritual enlightenment as the body you are in right now.

    Then again, if you realize the full spiritual truth in this life, what's so special about that? Spiritual truth has been known in all of time and does not ever change. Spiritual truth is so universal and ever-present that there is almost no point in realizing it because such a thing is not a speciality in any case. In fact, it is the most universal thing there is, the most boring thing there is.

    Stop the escapism, stop the endless thinking loops of meaninglessness, and start something of value in this unique reality. Why is this reality so special? Because there are endless possibilities, which means this is the only time you get to experience this particular reality. If you think this reality is meaningless, maybe consider that this is the only time you get to experience this one reality.

    Realizing infinity means that you realize the invaluable nature of this specific, one-of-a-kind reality.

    The great things that you achieve in the specific context of this reality will be infinitely more worthwhile than the realization of the ultimate truth that concerns all realities equally. The adventures and uncoverings of relative truth in this circumstantial reality are infinitely more valuable than ultimate truth. That is because they are infinitely unique as nothing else could ever be.

    Throw your full life into understanding this relative space and how to make it better. Leave behind existential questioning and spiritual ecstasy once you have gotten the message, because getting the message is only valuable in regards to applying it to the unique place you are situated in right now.

    Spiritual enlightenment for a relative entity is only worthwhile when it is combined with the relative workings of your current reality; how does the ultimate truth interact with the relative sphere you were imbued with?

    Sincerely Rob

    Let's simplify it.

    Outside your mind's reality: There is no truth, value or concepts that persist. No hierarchy to it. Only what can be communally agreed can be maintained in any form here. 

    Infinity has no end or beginning, it has no size or shape. All you see is all there is to see.

     

  23. Posted

    8 hours ago, Nivsch said:

    @BlueOak Turquoise's communal component is Purplish in its quality.

    Thats how I felt it from my moments of experience with Turquoise I think I started to have.

    Can you expand this? Thanks.
     

    7 hours ago, Keryo Koffa said:

    @BlueOak Green turns Yellow by breaking relativity's symmetry through systemic analytical constructivism. 
    Yellow turns Turquoise post systems thinking, when it merges metaphysically with the organic flow of reality.
    Turquoise turns Coral when it transcends, converges & constructs its own gestalt by embodying reality itself.

    • Yellow is an Android, smart but unattuned, without feeling.
    • Turquoise is a self-sustaining plant synergizing with its environment.
    • Corals are many in one, both plant & animal, dynamic metamorphic gestalts.

    Yellow values Yin-Yang, Turqoise realizes Wu-Wei, and Coral transcends into the Autodual.

    Wu-Wei: Yes, effortless merging with reality can only happen meaningfully with a communal focus; it makes sense.
    Yellow has emotions, but they are individual in nature and can be overridden by the logical half of the mind.

    By post-systems thinking, I assume you mean less reliance on structured modeling of reality and more just going with it. 

  24. Posted · Edited by BlueOak


    Obstacles and Gates.
     


    Pain and Contrast.

    Hope it helps.

    I think she's refining this concept more now which is something I made the case for and maybe someone agreed, or it just all lined up. If people have a basic level of success or financial stability they can afford to purchase additional programs, thus benefiting the community and her team.
     

  25. Posted

    Both stages have a recognition that all stages are in you and the community, but turquoise seems more communally focused.

    I just dropped one of these links off but I'll give three to have a look at.

    The one we are in now. If you see a thread and think that's not turquoise! Then that's a part of yourself you are rejecting, or unable to integrate (Yellow) in a communal form (Turquoise). One of the quickest and most painful ways to become more conscious is to go read something you dislike here and then reflect on the part of yourself, beating away in your own chest/mind you dislike.

    https://access.tealswan.com/home

    https://secretenergy.com/

    https://integrallife.com/


    If I were to surmise: Coral is the understanding everything is already coral, that's a ham-fisted way of putting it but I am not coral unless I enter an infinite love state again perhaps, and then I'll only partially be there at any one time. Which is exactly correct because the great majority of the planet is not there yet (and yet they are at the same time). 

    All I've got down of Coral is:
    I am all.
    Everything is love.
    Everything is reflected in me (inside/outside same thing)