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3 minutes ago, CARDOZZO said:

 

It's actually amazing to see so much reaction for just telling that you're not AWAKE.

Everyone trying to prove that their own maps/methods of awakening is right. 

Nobody knows, just work on your direct experience and getting what is true.

 

> Everyone trying to prove that their own maps/methods of awakening is right. 

Thats why I prefer selling water by the River. No story or map/method is absolutely true. But some make more happy than others....

>Nobody knows.

Nobody knows: Safer than if somebody knows...  Sorry, just kidding ( : 

> just work on your direct experience and getting what is true.

Fully agree. Who else kind find out what you are than you?

 

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19 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

You would call your life a mirage ? It's a complex structure that have a reason. The reality is complex, and can be understood. Simplify is...simple . The reality isn't simple at all, despite we would like

 

Imagine when all perspectives/beings of the Absolute are switched off. Nothing or totally infinite. Something like Deep-Sleep for all perspectives/beings. "It" would initially unaware of itself, but with the potential for sentience.

Then a water-pistol is being imagined. Because is in the Nature of the Infinite to imagine form. Or a planet. Et voila, you have appearance, duality, form, and self-awareness. Very nicely described by the way in Benthino Massaros in "Spiritual Conversations with a Skeptic: On God Consciousness and The Absolute". Whatever you may think about the guy, the book is nice.

Then imagine that this orginally unaware infinity forgets all other perspectives/beings "in space". Only "your" perspective is known in your case. You know whats forgetting in time is (what did you do exactly one year ago, for example), so something like that is also possible in space. You are just not aware of them right now.

Check this picture, and notice the non-euclidian-space: Infinite perspectives. In this non-euclidian space, infinite perspectives fit in. You see only one of these perspectives, but Leavitt has had this vision with seeing an infinite amount in non-euclidian space. 

 

And the crazy thing is: You think (I assume at least : ) that you are located somewhere, head or body. But these arisings that feel like this being-locatedness can completely drop away, if you are able to spot them fast enough, and are familiar with them. Awareness has no location. You can never ever find it. The appearance bubble of each perspective/being is self-aware, perceptions perceiving themselves. Potentially as mere appearance, but with Karma/ignorance rock solid material/out there. But it CAN be seen as mere appearance. And once its not solid anymore one time, its proven that the solidity has only been fake appearance, never really has been like that, just appeared. That solidity is optional, if so imagined.

But when you remove all these separation and being-located-feeling-arisings: The structure of your perspective reveals itself (perceptions perceiving itself, no center/awareness-location anywhere).

Any maybe you can imagine that these appearances can become infinitely complex. But they are the real You, arising in you, as you, perceiving itself.

And in that way the awareness of the abyss of awareness that you are (you can never define it, find it, measure it: INFINITE. Not finite). And you are also all appearances, nondual and infinite style.

And if you switch it all off, all appearances/perspectives off, in all perspectives that you imagine in parallel and forget, you are back to square one. And that is the infinitely simple core of you: An Absolute Reality initially unaware of itself, but with the potential for sentience as soon as something shows up, in any perspective. And its not located in 3D-Space. 3D-Space is imagined in you, as object. And you can't go anywhere, can't disappear, can't die. You can only imagine to do so ( : 

And fully understanding the structure of you own perspective (the appearances of the visual field as mere appearance, insubstantial hologram-like (Yoga of One Taste), the whole perspective being infinite because 3D-space is also something imagined in you, and especially not believing ANY separate self-arisings arising in you (which needs a lot of practice to spot them fast enough, and see them arising and moving in you as objects), then you get and understand is what this perspective of yours is. And that awarness has radically no location. That awareness is really radically no-thing. Yet Awareness happens, perceptions perceiving themself. No lense of perception remains.It feels like the whole field is self-aware, perceptions perceiving themselves. But the field can imagine any kind of identity, location or lense, or ideas about itself.

Then imagine there are no appearances, all switched off: The infinite Reality, initially unaware of itself, but potentially aware with sentience as soon as a appearance shows up.

And this insight is valid for all perspectives, since any real boundary between perspectives would be just an arising, nothing solid, and not the Infinite Awareness. So it is understood that these insights must be valid for all perspectives/beings.

 

But of course, people way smarter and wiser just would say:  The old pond, A frog jumps in: Plop!  Or the One Hand claps.

As always, selling water by the River that is you. Bon voyage.

PS: Maybe you can find a few Alien Godmind in the non-euclidian space of perspectives in the picture. For sure a fun ride...

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5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

This is a common mistake. The mistake is trying to reduce Consciousness to some bottom line. This leads to Buddhism. You will not become very conscious that way. Consciousness is about grasping higher, not reducing down to a bottom line. You cannot comprehend GOD through bottom-lining. That's what all these enlightened people get wrong. They treat GOD as though it were some kind of substance or atom that you just need to discover and then you are done.

> Consciousness is about grasping higher, not reducing down to a bottom line.

You can go higher in appearances in consciousness. 

What is this consciousness? What is the real You? Does that have a higher or lower? What is that Singularity?

> The mistake is trying to reduce Consciousness to some bottom line.

I agree on that. You can't reduce Reality to anything.

And Reality/True You is aware, perceptions seing themselves... No location, no higher or lower, infinite in every aspect, but able to manifest it all and be aware of it. And the appearances and perspectives can be higher or lower, more encompassing or not.

 

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23 minutes ago, Squeekytoy said:

@Water by the River @Leo Gura You guys are completely misreading what he said about presence. He wasn't talking about a state or practice or insight, but about the bottom line of existence.

Presence, and Ego, even Ego-loss, and consciousness (being aware of some arisings) gets switched off every night in deep sleep, at least for most. So these things can potentially switched off, without the Real You and the bottom line of existence getting switched off.

Can the Real You be something that is not constant? That gets switched on and off?

Is that the bottom line of existence?

And if he was talking about the Real Bottom Line of Existence, or the One Hand clapping: Why is that not enough? Was it really the One Hand clapping? For all others hearing the One Hand Clapping, it was enough.

As always: Just selling Water by the River.

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Ego loss and presence is not what this work is truly about. That is a minor matter in the end. There are much larger issues at stake.

You cannot comprehend GOD merely by losing your ego or being very present. This is the core mistake of Buddhism. They confuse such things with CONSCIOUSNESS. But those are very narrow aspects of CONSCIOUSNESS.

I agree. Ego-Loss and Presence is not final Enlightenment. Ego-Loss and Presence would be Roger Thisdells stage 3 and 4, a more or less transparent Witness, and that can include Nonduality and Unity-states. Not his stage 5, True No-Self, or final Enlightenment. His videos are on Youtube, see my previous posts.

At the end, when only the individuality-feeling of the Transparent Witness remains, and even that is seen as moving in the True You or Reality/Infinite Consciousness itself, among with all other mere appearances of the Visual Field, then there is insight into the Ultimate Nature of Reality and your True Self. Not before. That is called Great Enlightenment in Zen, or Basis Enlightenment in Mahamudra. All small Enlightenments before are called Kenshos or smaller Satoris (Nonduality, Unity, certain Ego-losses). But the final and total drop of the separate self arisings is the Great Enlightenment, the insight into the nature of Existence/Reality and the real You.

Version 1, Peter Ralston:

Peter Ralston: "So you know enlightenment is you yourself becoming conscious of what's true, directly conscious of what's true, like what you are or what existence is, no more than that".

Version 2, The Supreme Source, God-Realization Dzogchen-style:

 

 

My intuition is with the importance you lay on God-Realization: Never stop short - on which I fully agree. Thats the worst mistake one can do - stop short in understand what You and Ultimate Reality really are. I really agree on that.

Apparently, understanding that everything is just appearance arising in the True You, Reality itself, and what that True You and Ultimate Reality are, is paramount.

But why aim for understanding all of the endless/infinite perspectives (Alien Minds, whatever...) that work together to give rise to all these appearances, when by definition its infinite and endless (n+1) and never can be fully understood, and call that God-Realization, and give it a higher meaning than the Full Classic Enlightenment? Isn't Ultimate Reality the final Godhead? Infinite other dimensions run and understood by other Alien Godminds? Aren't these other realms not just... more appearances arising in Ultimate Reality?

Why place more importance on these insights, which by definition can never be complete, than on the understanding of the "wetness" of each wave of appearances in the ocean of Ultimate Reality? Which by the way, is the definition of final Enlightenment (or Great Enlightenment in Zen, see Kapleau three pillars. Not the preliminary ones, Kenshos and smaller Satoris, which show Nonduality and various other facets). But the real thing, like Ralston said, what Reality is and what You really are.

Why not get the wetness and bliss of the ocean in your everyday-life, and then go exploring the Alien Godminds? Or do you aim for that with exploring the Alien Godminds?

As always: Review the perspectives, and if one doesn't like the kind of water that is being sold here at the river, look deeply into yourself if you are not already the river... ( : 

He who knows the well doesn't drink out of the jar. And doesn't angry on other jars.

PS: And besides, in exploring these Alien-Godminds, I think you are doing an awesome pioneering job, stuff for the history books in the future. What would really delight me is if you find within yourself a place living from which brings you a radiating bliss and love in your everyday life 24/7, and freedom from psychological suffering. All the best and bon voyage!

 

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45 minutes ago, max duewel said:

What I can't reach my head around is this..

Even If I can reach this Alien understanding how can this beat the understanding of the Godhead?

Shouldn't god be the ultimate understanding and even the highest Alien consciousness only a small fractal of gods understanding?

Maybe you can't reach your head around this because it is a true what you write?

Godhead could be defined as Reality itself "seen/been" from a perspective/being where no arisings/form happen (Nirvikalpa, Deep Sleep, 5 MeO,....).

Understanding the true nature of Reality when form arises as appearances in You contains a deep understanding of the nature of the Godhead also (when it is deep enough, with zero separate self identities still being believed, not believed as subject but seen arising as objects).

And the Alien Understanding is then understanding about the structure of these/certain structures arising in reality, even if its pretty subtle and pretty formless. With enough training, you can see these understandings arise and moving in the Reality that you are, being elaborated into further understandings later. Reality/Consciousness does all this understanding of the different perspectives/beings.

As always, review the perspectives and draw your own conclusions, and choose the perspective with which you resonate most deeply.

And more specific: Are you happy when you fully understand the wetness of the (infinite) ocean and understand and become the wetness of the ocean, or do you need to understand the structure of every wave of certain sub-fractal, for example  "low-pressure-vortex-area/Alien God-Mind" in an infinitely large ocean?

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  9 hours ago, Water by the River said:

Whatever the meaning or Referent of this concept/word is , it would just be more form. Even if its a very subtle appearance or formless understanding. Just more arisings.

8 hours ago, aurum said:

You don’t know that.

You don’t know what Leo means by Alien Consciousness. And neither do I. But I don’t think Leo is making such an obvious error.

Alternatively, if it just “more form”, then it’s clear he thinks it’s a highly relevant form. And maybe there’s good reason for that.

My point is we just don’t know. Let’s have a little bit of faith in Leo. He obviously feels it is important.

 

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

When consciousness reaches levels beyond human -- way beyond nonduality, Buddhism, and even most psychedelic trips -- it transforms into alien forms of consciousness and intelligence

@Aurum: Luckily, we did get a timely answer: Alien FORMS of consciousness and intelligence.  I fully believe Leo that he experienced this, and its fascinating stuff. For sure, there are those perspectives/intelligences creating and keeping the game running. That is the stuff that humanity will probably focus on the explore in the next 1000 years and beyond, if not a mishappen asteroid or so comes along.... So Leo is a pioneer of the highest degree, for sure. And maybe after 1000 years we will play the UFOs on some other planets or dimensions, or create our own little dimensions or whatever, and appear as these Alien intelligences. Who knows?

But lets say reality is really infinite (as pretty much everbody and most spiritual texts agree on): Its infinite turtles all the way up. N+1. You never reach the top. If you understood that Alien Universe-Creator/Manager, you can go understood his "boss". And the next. And so on, forever. So form doesn't stop. And the content of every perspective, of the alien forms of consciousness and intelligence, are  by definition form. It is all arisings. So it is an infinity "upwards", see Leos Video on Infinity Part 2, Cantors Set Theory. It will never stop. No reason not to explore, if you have fun doing it. I am curious for which shows are ongoing, for sure.The one Absolute Subject watching all of that, Reality itself or You, doesnt have form. It would limit Reality. This realization is the core of classic Enlightenment.

And knowing the Absolute of Reality is knowing the infinite Abyss of Consciousness: It is not form. "It" is the only "thing" (I know...)  that is not form, neither subtle or not. It is the Real You (not the separate self arisings in you). It is Reality itself. If no arisings happen in your perspective it is Nirvikalpa or Deep Sleep, if arisings happen in you perspective, it's perceptions perceiving themselves. With or without a separate self-arising going on. That is by the way the structure of all perspectives/beings being imagined by Ultimate Reality.

Any Identity/I-feeling-arising is form. Any understanding is an appearance. Why? Its not permanent. It comes and goes. Its not you. It arises in you.

And my only humble suggestion is: Before you go running exploring that which you can never finish in this lifetime: Why not look deeply into the abyss of your own true being (which contains all form, but never is form, getting to the point where there is so much no center that all perceptions see themselves), learn to keep that ongoing in daily life, and be happy and in bliss, and go exploring these Alien-Minds then? Why go exploring on an endless journey with so much urgency while still not being happy, because a separate self still creates dis-satisfaction (which by definition it does to keep the game/illusion going).

How would you call a game that keeps you dissatiesfied searching for the highest form of Alien Intelligence, when there are an infinite number of them out there, chasing your own tail? What is it that keeps the whole illusion running? The separate self at its core has to generate dis-satisfation, to keep some activity going on. Not that it winds down and one actually looks into the absolutely formless abyss of ones own Being and Reality, sees the separate self building blocks arising as those elements that cause the dis-satisfaction in the first place, and lives happily ever after. Would be bad for the show if everybody did that. Luckily, that risk will not arise soon. Especially since we see here a new and creative form of that activity of chasing your own tail, so to say the highest evolved version of that until now, in some sense really the cutting edge of that aspect of humanity.

And please nobody say that I am saying it is not worth exploring the Alien Superminds. That is part of the fascinating show. My only suggestion would be to do it in a way that makes you honestly happy and loving. And for that I would recommend you buying a bottle of water at the river saying: "Look deeply into your being, and check what reality is, what you are, if that makes you happy and loving or not, and check if its maybe already water. From the river".

As always: Review the perspectives and draw your own conclusion on what resonates within you. And think about if you want to be happy/loving while resting in your True Nature and then go exploring the Alien-Whatevers of the Multiverse, or go on that trip with a separate self very well intact, causing regularly returning dissatisfaction & unloving, and having from time to time some great highs in merging and understanding those Alien-Godminds.

 

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@aurum "If by alien supermind you are referring to Leo’s latest insights about Alien Consciousness, I would say we have no idea yet what Leo even means by this. "

Whatever the meaning or Referent of this concept/word is , it would just be more form. Even if its a very subtle appearance or formless understanding. Just more arisings.

What is it that is aware of all of that? And what happens with that in Deep Sleep? What is that Nothingness that can be unaware of itself if nothing appears, but has the innate potential for sentience? That which can never not be?

If that understanding manifests in your mindstream and daily everday-life, I would be interested in how happy and blissful you are on a permanent basis. And how much you would still grasp about the Alien...

But then you would probably anyway go looking about this interesting Alien Supermind, but with a big smile on your face. When such a show comes into town....  I would go looking....  ( : 

PS: I am really curious what kind of stuff will be dragged in from the Multiverse into our little comfy imagined reality in the next decades...

Hopefully nothing that is too hungry for some poor souls...  ( :  But hey, if you look into history, they dragged quite some weird and hungry stuff from god knows which dimensions.... many of the first contactees could later be visited in insane asylums.

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3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The only creature on this entire planet who is AWAKE. Is me.

No one else.

I shit you not.

Be very careful. You don't understand how deep this thing goes. It goes completely beyond any human comprehension.

Enlightenment is imaginary.

Every "enlightened" human on this planet is fooling themselves very deeply.

GOD is completely beyond all that.

This is not Leo speaking to you.

This is GOD, speaking through the Leo avatar.

I can only get through to you as much as you will allow me.

So be very careful about how you handle your mind.

Stylistically, (not the content), this reminded me on something I read in

Strassman, DMT and the Soul of Prophecy: A New Science of Spiritual Revelation in the Hebrew Bible

Chapter 6 THE HEBREW BIBLE’S MODEL
The previous chapter ended with my concluding that the psychological, biophysical, Buddhist, or shamanic models I had brought to my research, or studied soon thereafter, did not satisfactorily account for all aspects of the DMT experience. They rejected the possibility that the contents of the DMT experience were objectively real, did not sufficiently attend to the highly interactive nature of the state, suffered from ethical shortcomings, or lacked cultural compatibility.

As I worked my way through the Hebrew Bible, the notion of prophecy began to press upon me. While its detailed characteristics were still vague, it clearly was a form of spiritual experience replete with voices, visions, extreme emotional and physical effects, and novel insights. In these respects, it resonated with the DMT volunteers’ reports. Even more compelling was that prophecy was interactive and relational. It was an exchange between humans and a usually invisible level of reality, one that is external, freestanding, and absolutely objective, at least as real as everyday life. Angels with characteristics much like the DMT beings populated that world, as did God, who created and sustained that world as well as this one. Those beings and God interacted with humans and with each other in much the same way as the research subjects described their own interactions with beings, and beings’ interactions with each other, in the DMT state.

 

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1 hour ago, axiom said:

@Water by the River Nice, although the suggestion that there is something that can be done or learned still seems to be there.

There is noone already, so there is nothing that can be done. There are only appearances arising which may or may not involve what seems to be an individual on some kind of path.

From the other side of the gate, it is said that to see apparent individuals believing that they exist, believing in their own agency... believing they have achieved enlightenment or indeed anything at all - is the sweetest joke going.

@axiom Fully agree on all points. I should have added some concluding remark from the Absolute side of the street, not everything from the Relative side of the street. 

>There is noone already, so there is nothing that can be done. There are only appearances arising which may or may not involve what seems to be an individual on some kind of path.

Totally agree, but for sake of teaching-efficiacy, the Mahamdura-system throws the stick with which one pokes and blazes the fire only into the fire when the fire is sufficiently burning.

In the Mahamudra-System (for example Pointing out the Great Way, Brown), there is only effort or artifical activity (or a person) involved up until and including the stage 3 of One Taste (One Taste = Nondual). One learns to cut all thought- and emotion-arisings fast enough (Stage 1& 2). When one is proficient enough in that, the visual field starts getting nondual (Stage 3), the separation perceived before drops away, and the visual field gets an appearance-only quality, empty, hologram-style.

Then, at stage 4 (Nonmeditation Yoga), this effort or artifical activity (or believing in a person or agent doing these things) gets dismantled, because cutting off the Illusion-thought-arisings has become fast enough and automatic. Together with that, the concept of a doer/person/agent gets pointed out as another concept, and the meditation does itself. Here, the mindstream aligns for the first time with the real state of things, that an understanding can happen there really is no person, just a bundle of I-thoughts/I-feelings arising. And of course, there was no person/individual in the past, only an apparant Gestalt that looked like that, and which one used to overlay ones true being (Infinite Conciousness or Reality itself) with, there isnt one now, and there never can or will be, only as an illusion or overlay on the real nature of things. Ones True Being is able to generate this illusion (magnificienlty), but is not dependend on it. The show can happen without it. But reality can generate this illusion.

Basically then one goes full Tony Parsons (there is no person, nothing needs to be done), but only at stage 4 Nonmeditation Yoga and not before. If you do it before, certain qualities are not generated that one needs to conform to the enlightened mind (nonduality, mere-appearance/imagined hologram-like quality of the visual field, infinitesness of the visual field, space not as independend self-existing "thing" but sth. imagined in consciousness which consciousness doesnt need to imagine, time and memory happening in it now, that one cant get out of it because there is no outside, and some other stuff). 

 

And when all of that is in place, Basis-Enlightenment or Crossing Over can happen, which Brown describes (among other things): 

"

Seemingly individual consciousness (yid), the point of observation throughout the entire path of meditation, is now found to be a mere concept (btagspa), which drops away. 
…
The seeming reality of individual consciousness along with its functions and activities gives way, leaving only an infinite ocean of awareness-space

"

The description of enlightenment as a dropping away of any kind of separate-identity/person/individual arising is universal in all enlightenment descriptions. Don't worry, by definition, the real you can't go away - ever. Only an illusion is seen through and understood. And the real you can generate the separate-self Illusion-show, so nothing really is lost. Whats more fundamental is still there. So It sounds more negative than it is.

Leaving only an infinite ocean of awareness-space: And if you have become so impersonal or universal consciousness (nondual) that you can have that state of huge nonduality/mere appearance of the visual field/infiniteness sobre, well then you have deconstructed your separate self enough. This is the Gate-Keeper of the Gateless Gate. This deconstruction is better said a high-speed-search-task-and-cutting-off of separate self illusion-arisings (I-feelings, I-thoughts, Trekchö-Style), and that is what boosts the nonduality and mere appearance aspect of the visual field, which is exactly what you can also boost with psychedelics, but with much more of the separate-self illusions still staying intact.... Frank Yang called that once the God-Mind-state.

 

 

>From the other side of the gate, it is said that to see apparent individuals believing that they exist, believing in their own agency... believing they have achieved enlightenment or indeed anything at all - is the sweetest joke going.

Fully agree. And if it can happen natty in Nonduality-States, it can even more easily happen with doing only/mainly Psychedelics, because among other things, they exactly boost that Nonduality/mere apperance/infinite state. And if the separate self arisings are not fully seen through, you can get quite a show. And by the way, as Ken Wilber said, people doing both meditation and psychedelics, get the most out of it, so I am not against Psychedelics at all.

Somebody made a very nice youtube-Channel on looking deep into the Abyss or Nothingness that precedes Nonduality: Prior to Non-Duality

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9vlZGtpdFIts8GOG5vu27g

You can have full blow nonduality WITH an enlightened ego/person with an identity still going on, believing to be enlightened. Believing to be Awareness, Presence, God, whatever not. Stage 3 in Mahamudra. Quite a show...

Beautiful video on that by Jac O'Keffee:

 

and now, walking from the Relative Side of the Street a bit more towards its Absolute Side:

In actuality, there is nobody selling water by the river, and nobody is buying it... 

And the short form, of all written above is:

The old pond, A frog jumps in: Plop! 

Enjoy the ride!

 

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16 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Well...realizing that you are reality, the infinity that is, is not so difficult. deconstruction and psychedelics

Thats true. Although it can take quite a while without psychedelics.

That stage was variously called the One Taste (Yoga of One Taste), Nonduality, Big-Self, Infinity, Mere Appearance, Unity, God-Self, Big Mind, ....

But who or what is aware of that? At that stage, there is still some nebulous murky identity arising, watching or being aware of this Nondual Big Self. Even in this Nonduality/Unity, there are the last remnants of the separate self (very subtle, hard to spot, takes some training) still arising. 

Roger Thisdell has some nice youtube-videos on that: Not Self - A Stage Theory of Enlightenment (4/5)

In Roger Thisdells System, it is his stage 4, which is beyond his stage 3 Big Mind, which is already Nondual (One Taste/Yoga of One Taste, Nonduality, Big-Self, Infinity, Mere Appearance, Unity, God-Self, Big Mind) with a already much reduced separate self. Stage 3 can have full Nonduality/Unity, with the separate self much more intact than the pretty empty Not-Self of stage 4 (which has just Individuality or a murky Subject-Object left). It is Ken Wilber Empty Witness, Daniel Brown "Individuality", Jac O'Keeffe "Identity", Greg Goode transparent witness vs. opaque witness, Nisargadattas and Stephen Wolinskis Brahman vs. Parabrahman). One can find this stage in every system: Infinite Nonduality/Unity with the remnants of a separate self, some kind of identity or indviduality/separateness.

And the last stage in his system, stage 5, Enlightenment: True No Self and No Centre - A Stage Theory of Enlightenment (5/5)

And then perceiving this boundless infinite field of mere appearance of your Awareness Bubble/reality/infinity, and then dissolving the last arising remnants of any remaining subject arisings perceiving this nondual infinity. These can be very subtle, "no-self"-arisings perceiving infinity, but still some subjectivity/individuality sensation/arisings remaining. But these arisings of any form of subject/individuality can still be seen as objects hovering in the infinite field/Suchness that you are. Don't worry, your True Self will still be there afterwards if these separate-self remnants dissolve. Then one can understand why it is so often said there is nothing beyond this stage. Because it is you, it is Existence itself, see the Ralston Video.

To learn these last tricks of the separate self, you need enough time in these states, and the right techniques, (for a suggestion see below, no artifical activity), and then the One Hand Claps. 

How to do that? I like the Nonmeditation-Yoga in Daniels Browns "Pointing out the Great Way". Learn to automize the meditation (on the pillow and in daily life) of cutting off these separate self arisings, so that no more of what he calls "artifical activity" is necessary, because any effort at that stage done by a doer/separate self arising prevents the realization. It has to become fully automized.

 

Definition of concepts Awakening, Enlightenment and No-Self: 

I believe we got a lot of different meanings of what we mean by No-Self, and Awakening and Enlightenment. 

Enlightenment: If Enlightenment is knowing what you are and what existence is, being able to stay in that knowledge in everday life: That has an endpoint: You know what you are and what existence is. And that brings permanent happiness and bliss. Of course you can suffer when you have bodily pain, but psychological suffering is gone. Resting in your True Nature generates bliss by itself.

And that is the same as True No-Self, which is the same as True Self, because it is Reality and the core or Buddha-Nature of every being. But here, words loose their meaning, because reality has no opposite.

No-Self: The real No-Self is not just giving up the Personality/Ego and going to the Witness (opaque or transparent, which can even be Nondual Kosmic Consciousness/Nature Mysticism style) with something still watching. That something can be mostly empty, just a transparent witness, but it still has the last duality of some kind of individuality. Problem is: This is something one only fully understands when these remnant-arisings of individuality are gone. 
If there is no separate self having individuality, the universe is watching itself, appearances watching themselves, thoughts are arising in immense vastness as objects, floating through you like the sound of a bird, and the feeling of being something separate is also seen as object in immense vastness. See Roger Thisdell stage 5. 

Awakening: If one defines Awakening as knowing all the manifestation mechanisms in this or any other dimension, then one perspective/being can be more awake than another. But: Infinity means there are endless dimensions. 

 

And a few thoughts on Genetics and Meditation: I believe that using the right meditation techniques at the right stage are essential, more so than genetics. Good techniques change along the path, check for example Pointing Out the Great Way by Daniel Brown. Classic Self-Help-Mindset: I would never let my success and drive be limited by such a limiting belief genetics <-> meditation. Do the the best with the Karma you have. Give it a try! The biggest heros are those who go furthest with the worst genetics/Karma. How do you know if you are limited, if you dont't fully try? Maybe you are not? And of course use Psychedelics on top, why not?

If anybody is annoyed by this attempt to Sell water by the River: Please review the perspectives, do your own experiments, and review the outcome.

My suggestion would be in judging if any insight is valueable, worthwhile, and higher: Does it bring the understanding of what you are and what reality is, beyond any doubt? Does it bring permanent satisfaction and bliss?

And don't worry: Its already what you are, covered by lots of mistaken identities, and it is the only thing you can not loose. The only stuff you can loose are arising appearances, confusions/ignorance of what you think you are.

By the way, does anybody read that until the end here?

[Important! - Nobody On This Forum Is AWAKE]

9 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

everyone here seems to have the number one goal of validating themselves as sage

The late Daniel P. Brown on how to tell the depth of realization: At the end of the day, only the conduct with which one lives ones life. I like that perspective.

Of course, the things being discussed here are the most important, and serious things there are. But at the same time, all you can do, in the best case, is: Selling water by the River... Every sentient being already has at its core its True Nature.

So why not mix some benevolent lightness into all of it? Some humour?

[Important! - Nobody On This Forum Is AWAKE]

17 minutes ago, Understander said:

 

Why is that?

Peter Ralston: "So you know enlightenment is you yourself becoming conscious of what's true, directly conscious of what's true, like what you are or what existence is, no more than that".

What you are. What existence is.

Not what the true you can do or manifest, or how you manage to do that. That is infinite.

As always: Review the evidence and perspectives, look deeply into your own being (with whatever method you want), hear the sound of the one hand clapping, and draw your own conclusions. 

[Important! - Nobody On This Forum Is AWAKE]

... Selling Water by the River 

[Defense of Leo's harsh style & why you should Love him, not expect him to be loving]

 

"Ken Wilber: The downside comes with people that only use psychedelics or drugs and I found that over the years they just become mean.

It's somehow just kind of closes them down it's like you keep doing it and you keep doing it you keep doing it it doesn't quite cause the transformation.

It can cause a peak experience but generally not a transformative experience and some people like David Deida will say that in order for altered changes of state to contribute to transformation a permanent transformation it has to be basically endogenous and not a exogenous it has to be has your own source

People who do that (Psychedelics) the people that do use both (Meditation and Psychedelics) and use it as a sacrament i think an enormous bit out of it."

As always: Consider the different perspectives and draw your own conclusions.

PS: Lot of Leos work contains extraordinary metaphysical explanations that are in my perspective absolutely marvelous. I wish him permanent happiness, liberation and the bliss of constantly resting in his True Being, that will then radiate as love and compassion.

 

[Contemplating around Actualized Quotes #030]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I'm not sure. I haven't reached it.

My perspective on that from my last post, see below. Please take that as a possible perspective that was able to emerge in this reality. I resonate with that perspective. Please feel free to consider this perspective, and draw your own conclusions.

"

If Consciousness/Ultimate Reality is infinite, then an infinite number of universes is being imagined/plays right now in other realms/dimensions.

All are being "run/managed" by certain levels of consciousness/beings/perspectives/Godminds/… that are obviously much larger than human consciousness, and can be accessed and understood (at least temporarily), since it is all one nondual reality, infinite consciousness.

As Leo stated in his “Outrageous Experiments In Consciousness - 30 Awakenings In 30 Days, at 2h 2min”, there are endless dimensions of awakening into the mechanisms of these realms/intelligences/mechanism creating, governing and sustaining an infinite amount of dimensions/worlds/realms. Which, as he stated in that video, freaked him out - understandably.

And as Leo also has stated concerning Cantor’s Theorem on Infinity: There are infinite subsets of infinities. Each is infinite, but some infinities are larger than others (see Cantors Set Theory on Infinities, very nicely summarized in Leos lovely video “Understanding Absolute Infinity - Part 2” on this topic, main points at 10 minutes, and see also in general Cantor’s Set Theory).

That means that even if an infinity of realms are being imagined right now (and created/maintained by different beings/levels of reality/Godminds/Alien Godminds/…), Ultimate Reality will NEVER run out of realities/dimensions/Lilas to imagine, since some infinities are larger than others. Ultimate Reality can imagine an infinite cascade/hierarchy of parallel realities right now, and that doesn’t mean that all possible realities are being imagined right now. Since even if an Infinity of them run right now, there are infinitely larger Infinities still available as potential. And an infinity of them. Intuiting the infinity of infinities of realms/dimensions that Ultimate Reality/God can and does manifest is awe-inspiring.

"

... (for the rest please see my last post. There, I write about what that perspective lead to in my life). 

[Frank Yang on TOE with Curt Jaimungal Interview]

If Consciousness/Ultimate Reality is infinite, then an infinite number of universes is being imagined/plays right now in other realms/dimensions.

All are being "run/managed" by certain levels of consciousness/beings/perspectives/Godminds/… that are obviously much larger than human consciousness, and can be accessed and understood (at least temporarily), since it is all one nondual reality, infinite consciousness.

As Leo stated in his “Outrageous Experiments In Consciousness - 30 Awakenings In 30 Days, at 2h 2min”, there are endless dimensions of awakening into the mechanisms of these realms/intelligences/mechanism creating, governing and sustaining an infinite amount of dimensions/worlds/realms. Which, as he stated in that video, freaked him out - understandably.

And as Leo also has stated concerning Cantor’s Theorem on Infinity: There are infinite subsets of infinities. Each is infinite, but some infinities are larger than others (see Cantors Set Theory on Infinities, very nicely summarized in Leos lovely video “Understanding Absolute Infinity - Part 2” on this topic, main points at 10 minutes, and see also in general Cantor’s Set Theory).

That means that even if an infinity of realms are being imagined right now (and created/maintained by different beings/levels of reality/Godminds/Alien Godminds/…), Ultimate Reality will NEVER run out of realities/dimensions/Lilas to imagine, since some infinities are larger than others. Ultimate Reality can imagine an infinite cascade/hierarchy of parallel realities right now, and that doesn’t mean that all possible realities are being imagined right now. Since even if an Infinity of them run right now, there are infinitely larger Infinities still available as potential. And an infinity of them. Intuiting the infinity of infinities of realms/dimensions that Ultimate Reality/God can and does manifest is awe-inspiring.

Assuming that for some people (as it was for myself) a big fundamental question is: How do you divide the time of your life between

a)      Exploring this Multiverse of an infinity of infinities of realms/dimensions (for example Psychonaut-style), and its mechanisms and structures,

b)      Realizing Sahaja-Samadhi, stable and blissfully abiding in totally nondual infinite consciousness that is your True Face, and seeing all clusters of sensations, including the own human self, running in the infinite totality of ones own nondual boundless infinite consciousness, as mere appearances and play in infinite consciousness,

c)      Helping others Boddhisattva-style.

Maybe these ideas are helpful for some being faced with this question:

·         If the dimensions/realms/worlds are endless, the beings creating/sustaining/understanding these run upward to infinity (which means nothing else that one can never understand it all). And even if one did, there is an infinity of infinities still remaining to be manifested/imagined by Ultimate Reality.

·         a certain amount of exploring is for sure helpful, until one grasps that there is an infinity of dimensions, and an infinity of possible understandings on these dimensions, an infinity their manifestation mechanism, and so on. And an infinitely larger infinity of all of these still as potential “in the pipeline” of Absolute Reality. And maybe go exploring some of these.

·         and then realizing that as long one is not fully realized in Sahaj Samadhi, being able to constantly watch the separate self arising in the boundless nondual sea of ones own being, one does and will suffer: Not having the impersonal enlightenment of being constantly able to see all clusters of sensations of the separate self arise in the infinite boundless consciousness space that one is, one will suffer. (bodily suffering is of course always possible, but its not translated to psychological suffering via a separate self cluster of sensation arising).

·         Contemplate about the possibility that Ultimate Reality is extremely/infinitely intelligent, and would easily be able to block this full realization/Enlightenment and resting in Sahaj Samadhi if you have not fully and honestly taken the Boddhisattva-vow. And it tends to do just that (not as a perfect mechanism, but tendency-wise), as a safety-mechanism, to avoid too many exploitative cults with half-enlightened Gurus.

How to make peace with an Infinite Ultimate Reality, manifesting itself right now in infinite worlds? Not a large number of realms and worlds, but an infinite one? And on top, even if one would understand this infinity of realms being manifested right now, that there would be an infinitely larger infinity of realms still possible, see Cantor’s Theorem above.

So if you would have permanent access to your true nature, rest stable in Sahaj Samadhi, knowing the substance of all possible dimensions is your true being, would you grasp on trying to understand all this infinity of an infinity of realms and dimensions and their mechanisms/patterns, that even Ultimate Reality can continue exploring infinitely forever and never reach an end? Would you choose grasping/suffering for this ultimate complete understanding, which can never be fully had, or the happiness of enlightenment?

Well, you couldn’t choose grasping. There wouldn’t be a you left that you take serious, just clusters of sensations of the remnants of the separate self that arise in you. And if these would have the choice between grasping/suffering and blissfully relaxing themselves into the infinite love of your true being, they wouldn’t choose grasping/suffering. They couldn’t choose grasping/suffering. The grasping/suffering of trying to understand all of the mechanisms/structures/patterns/… of an infinity of infinities of dimensions.

Which is exactly what can be oberserved with the Enlightened Ones that rest in Sahaja Samadhi and their True Nature. Being interested in exploring some of these dimensions for sure, but not with a higher priority than resting in their True Nature, or Sahaj Samadhi.

There is an archetype of a realized being, that deeply resonates in humanity. Its hallmark is its absolute happiness. Which is the same as its love. Some believe that archetype is in place for seekers to find their ways.

How do you spot real, full and stable Enlightenment? Daniel Brown once said: Only in the conduct with which one lives ones life. Which is then based on love, and happiness.

Maybe these thoughts resonate with some, and are helpful for some faced with the question on how to invest the time of your life, which is nothing else than one of the most fundamental questions: Where do you place your ultimate spiritual concern.

 

 

 

[Based on Oct 23 Blog post... where to move from here?]

25 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

I’m reading a book on the heart of Buddha’s teachings. So far it seems the central teaching of the Buddha how more to do with life, suffering and living well. 

I agree with Leos comment that this part of Buddhism is not God Realization. Its the basic teaching from the first turning of the wheel. Ken Wilber also clearly says that insight into Ultimate Reality didn't occur at that stage of Buddhism, it was a insight and experience of the causal stage (Godhead, pure consciousness, but not world/apppearance arising within that), not Nondual Realization of Ultimate Reality. (And experience of Nonduality is not automatically realization of Ultimate Reality). 

The realization of Ultimate Reality (the imagination or manifestation part) occured later, at Nagarjuna, and the second turning of the wheel, and was only clearly formulated philosophically with the third turning, the Yogachara or Mind-Only school.

If you want some really iconoclastic thoughts, read that the founder of Jainism has practically the same story/hagiography as Buddha, as explained in Mike Crowley in "Secret Drugs of Buddhism: Psychedelic Sacraments and the Origins of the Vajrayana", and draw your own conclusions concerning the historic Buddha. So who knows who had which realization back then... Looking at the literature these systems produced, one can make educated guesses.

A quote from Ken Wilbers "Integral Buddhism":

"The idea is that Buddhadharma (Buddhist Truth) has itself already undergone three (or four) major evolutionary Turnings in its own Teachings, according to Buddhism itself. The First Turning began with the original, historical Gautama Buddha himself, and is preserved to this day in teachings such as the Theravada.

The Second Turning was introduced by the genius Nagarjuna, around 200 CE, with his revolutionary notion of shunyata, or the radical Emptiness or “unqualifiability” of ultimate Reality (which could be said neither to be, nor not to be, nor both, norneither—the idea being to clear the mind of any and all concepts about Reality so that Reality in itself could be directly experienced), a notion that became the foundation of virtually every Mahayana (“Greater Vehicle”) and Vajrayana (“Diamond Vehicle”) teaching henceforth.

The Third Turning occurred with the half brothers Asanga and Vasubandhu, and is generally called the Yogachara school, sometimes referred to as the “Mind-Only” school (which agreed with Nagarjuna that ultimate Reality was Emptiness, but so was ultimate Mind). This teaching became a central foundation of the great Tantra and Vajrayana (Diamond Path) teachings, which particularly flourished in such places as the extraordinary Nalanda University in India from the 8th to the 11th century CE, and continued unabated in Tibetan Buddhist schools—and, indeed, many Buddhists consider Tantra and Vajrayana to be a “Fourth Turning of the Wheel.”

Also in Ken Wilbers model the realization of Ultimate Reality started first with the second turning of the wheel (Nagarjuna), which was not descriptive at all but pure neti-neti, pure emptiness, pure not this - not that.

The Yogachara-School, or "Mind-Only" school, changed that. To quote Leo from a previous video "Reality is a giant Mind". The Yogachara-School is very in line with that. "This teaching became a central foundation of the great Tantra and Vajrayana (Diamond Path" (see above). Also Mahamudra and Dzogchen evolved out of that. The Yogachara-School (or the lines influenced from it most) today is not Theravada, it is not Zen. Parts of it survived for example in Tibetan Buddhism. In my view and experience there are the most sophisticated meditation systems of the planet, see the writings of Daniel Brown. He practically translated all of the secret Tantric Hermit Yoga Stuff. For the most efficient meditation system on the planet (at least in my view), see his Mahamudra-Book "Pointing out the great Way", and his subsequent Dzogchen-Books, where he translated for the first time with permission from Menri Trizin all the secret stuff.

The Yogachara-School, or "Mind-Only" school, is most in line with Leos view, as far as see it. The Tibetan Traditions, like for example Dzogchen and Mahamudra, continued to evolve, and that is why we can read something like the Supreme Source, see my first reply in this threat, coming from these traditions. In my view, much of the Supreme Source is also in line with most of Leos perspective and his experiences and realizations. So when it comes to looking for God-Realization in Buddhism, maybe in these schools one can find the most. But even then, one has to read between the lines.

But Buddhism then in some traditions developed backwards, lost its sophistication, as here very clearly (and surprisingly harshly) said by Ken Wilber on Zen for example:

" But there were, nevertheless, still more unfoldings to occur. Particularly by the 4th century CE, the question had become insistent: granted that the Absolute cannot be categorized literally in dualistic terms and concepts, is there really nothing whatsoever that could be said about it at all? 

At least in the realm of conventional truth, couldn’t more systems, maps, models, and at least metaphors be offered about Reality and how to realize it? Already, in such brilliant treatises as the Lankavatara Sutra, the answer was a resounding yes.

The Lankavatara Sutra was so important it was passed down to their successors by all 5 of the first Chan (or Zen) Head-Founders in China, as containing the essence of the Buddha’s teachings. In fact, the early Chan school was often referred to as the Lankavatara school, and a history of this early period is entitled Records of the Lankavatara Masters. (Starting with the 6th Head-Founder, Hui Neng, the Diamond Sutra—a treatise solely devoted to pure Emptiness—displaced the Lankavatara, and in many ways Zen lost the philosophical and psychological sophistication of the Lankavatara system and focused almost exclusively on nonconceptual Awareness. Zen Masters were often depicted tearing up sutras, which really amounted to a rejection of the 2 Truths doctrine. This was unfortunate, in my opinion, because in doing so, Zen became less than a complete system, refusing to elaborate conventional maps and models. Zen became weak in relative truths, although it brilliantly succeeded in elaborating and practicing ultimate Truth."

So what do we have today when it comes to Buddhism?

• Theravada, which is a successor school of the schools of the first turning of the wheel, see above. Didn't really participate in the second and third turnings, which explains why its philosophy doesnt really reflect the sophistications of these systems. Here I agree with Leo. Still the meditation methods of these systems work for some if you do them long enough.
• Zen, see the comment of Wilber above.
• Tibetan Buddhism: They have in my opinion the most sophisticated meditation techniques, because they continued developing new methods, and contain the Yogachara Mind-Only perspective. The wording is of course not contemporary, one has to overlook a lot of "medieval" stuff, for example the cosmology of Tantra and so on. But even that can be understood and be put into perspective with something like the Supreme Array Sutra, Osto: https://psychedelicsangha.org/paisley-gate/2019/5/8/the-supreme-array-scripture-a-psychedelic-stra-for-buddhist-psychonauts-pp3zz

The above overview is for sure not complete.

So not all schools/systems of Buddhism have the same level of development, sophistication and efficiacy concerning meditation-methods and views on reality. Personally, I feel that some compassion with some of the traditions criticized in the text above helps me to keep a benevolent feeling towards them. But it should also be clear what the limits of the system are, and how efficient each is, and how good its view is. Ken Wilbers comment on Zen (above) was helpful for me, because I had the same feelings when I compared for example Zen and its anti-intellectualism (which also has its place in the right context) with Mahamudra/Dzogchen.

I believe in our lifetime we will start to see which systems "score" in producing realized ones, and which only get lucky in collecting genetically/karmically privileged ones for their own tradition. The efficiacy of a system is getting not only the the karmically/genetically superstars to the finish-line, but normal talented ones also. The Ramanas and Anandamayi Ma of this world always get to the finish line. The real challenge is getting normally talented ones to realize their true nature.

 

[Based on Oct 23 Blog post... where to move from here?]

2 hours ago, Kuba Powiertowski said:

@Leo Gura I don't know but maybe there is simpler explaination why some people who follows various buddhist schools, got stuck in some point. I assume that every "so called" spiritual path has stages. In meditation you go from being somebody / something to being nobody / nothing to being everybody / everything. When you stuck at "nobody / nothing" stage, you probably have not realized that there is still Supreme Witness of this nothingness. Otherwise nothingness wouldn't be known. Maybe that is the key here...

Yes.

What helped me here, since its always a question of definition (for example of the Supreme Witness):

• You are that which is aware. And the Totality of Reality itself, since it can only show up in that which is aware.
• But the Totality of Reality is often only seen as that which appears (The appearance side). And that can totally disappear (Deep Sleep), and the real you is still there, unaware of itself, but with a latent capacity for sentience if something appears again (the emptiness or consciousness/aware side). 

So the question is: How "empty" is the Supreme Witness.

• When it is so empty that no arisings/feeling (very subtle I-feelings/I-thoughts) arise and appear in the Totality (call it Reality, Infinite Consciousness, God, Dharmakaya, whatever you want), or you clearly see them all as objects/arisings/movements within you, then what you realize yourself to be very obviously is the Totality/Reality/Infinite Consciousness,... .
• The stage before that is the Supreme Witness, or Empty Witness: Ken Wilber calls that the Empty Witness: Personality, and especially time and space are already transcended, "you" feel the infinite reality as mere appearance, timeless. And always here. But there are still some clusters of sensations arising IN YOU that feel like individuality, or that you are not the unbounded whole, but a feeling of watching it appears in you. You are not all of it, the sensation of "other" still arise a lot in daily life, you dont feel that you what looks from all eyes is the same consciousness that gets clouded by feelings/thoughts of I/me, exactly like how it used to get clouded in you. The realization is neither stable, nor complete.
• And then at some point you realize that (learn to spot) these arisings/feelings/building blocks of the Supreme Witness or Empty Witness are still left and arising/moving in you. You learn to spot them in a sort of High-Speed-Analysis, recognize them as arisings/objects appearing within you, and you can stop them immediately (subject->object), or just watch them.
•  Then they drop, the Empty Witness drops, and the real you stays. But that is described by some as impersonal, a formulation that I am not totally happy with. Yes, its impersonal, its not the you you thought you were, but its the real you. And that real you "has" or "contains" the personal you moving in it. Then that boosts the nondual state, makes the whole world appear just as mere appearance, an imagined illusion, infinite, groundless, a mirage happening within you (that also starts before, but gets boosted a lot the more the Empty Witness drops). Pretty much a state that Psychedelics cause, but sobre. And with it comes happiness and bliss independend of what happens at that moment, which is the most beautiful aspect of it.

If you dont have nonduality and nonseparation and are not aware of the Ground of Being in normal life (while not meditating or tripping), these very subtle arisings/I-feelings/I-thoughts still arise in you and are not spotted with high enough speed to see them for what they are: Sensations of separation arising within the real you. In my experience, you can not force real Nonduality/mere appearance of the totality/world, its an energetic state that gets influenced "indirectly" over how fast you spot these I-thoughts/I-feelings. Here I am fully in line when Leo says you need the right state (of enought nonduality, illusion-like mere appearance of the world, directly feeling it all as mere empty consciousness appearance mirage-arising).

When you spot these subtle arisings (building blocks of the separate self and even Empty Witness) fast enough, they arise in you. But you can't force it with willpower, that would be what Daniel Brown in Pointing out the Great Way calls "artifical activity" during the stage of Nonmeditation Yoga (last stage of the 4 Mahamudra stages). It becomes automatic once you understand it at that stage. Its one of the Illusion-Mechanism of Maya that you can't force your way through it with willpower, but you can do it indirectly with understanding how to rest in your true nature. The energetic state of nonduality follows. Its some kind of positive feedback loop, sloping "upwards" if done correctly. I agree with Leo that Nonduality (which ripens) is in its early stages not realization of Ultimate Reality. Daniel Brown for example also. But realization of Ultimate Reality has to be nondual, since its a unity and infinite. And this development can pretty easily stagnate (especially before nonduality even begins to start), and stop if you do something incorrect, or understand something incorrect. Which pretty much happens with 99% of Buddhists. 

So the separate you disappears, but the real you as Awareness AND the Reality/World stays. So the Illusion-You disappears, but the real you is of course, as always, there. It can not "not be there". That is the Unborn, Reality itself. The real you.

And in that area/stage definitions of different authors and traditions get very slippery, since these "feelings" of the Supreme Witness (as you intuit) are very very subtle, and its very easy to identify with them and not notice it.

Over the years, I ended up with a metaphor for myself: Zen is like  axe to cut a tree. Very robust, works if you do it long enough hard enough pretty foolproof, doesnt need a lot complex theory/stages, but normally takes a long time and is not so pleasant (and in practice for most doesnt deliver the final results, because it takes extreme willpower). More sophisticated versions of Buddhism, with a more detailed map, like Mahamudra/Dzogchen (see for example Brown, Pointing out the Great Way), are like a Forest Harvester: If used correctly very fast, quite pleasant (for the user, probably not for the forest) and comfortable along the path, but quite hard to understand and learn, since language is so slippery in these areas. Like if you want to use a Forest Harvester, and if you dont get explained how it works (like put gas in it, how to drive it, its controls), delivers no result at all.

• Zen = robust, sit long enough with a Koan and you get it, not much to misunderstand, but neither very fast nor pleasant
• Mahamudra/Dzogchen = very sophisticated with techniques and details and pointing out descriptions for every stage, but if used incorrectly (like not putting as into forest harvester) no result at all even if you do it a long time.

Some Material for that stage I found useful:

1) Massaro, Spiritual Conversations with a Skeptic:

"Imagine a formless, space-like void that's indestructible, sentient, awake, alive and aware, but has no form. You could almost say it has no self
awareness. It just is. Russell: So wait... A void? A vacuum? Nothing?
Bentinho: Yes. Just imagine it.
Russell: OK, go ahead.
Bentinho: The point of the analogy is that there is no object. Imagine infinite space with no stars or planets. Suddenly, you introduce a toy; let's say a water pistol. Or it could be a body even. But let's say... Russell: An object.
Bentinho: Yeah, an object. A water pistol.
Russell: With water in it.
Bentinho: Maybe with Coca-Cola in it.
Russell: With Coca-Cola in it. OK.
Bentinho: Ah! Now there is something. Something is created. First there is this space, which is like the pure subject with no reference points. It's like
space, but it's not actually space. Russell: Wait... where am I in relation to this infinite space?
Bentinho: You are it.
Russell: I am it?
Bentinho: Yes.
Russell: OK. But there is nothing in it at first.
Bentinho: Correct. There is nothing in it at all; there is just Infinity.
Russell: But I am in it.
Bentinho: You are it.

"

2) How other perspectives/beings work:

A Human is aware of only his perspective (normally). But Infinite Consciousness can forget in time (what did you do exactly one year ago), or to be more precice NOT imagine that memory, and it can forget in space (metaphor of Francis Lucille).

To get an idea watch the cover of this book of Marc Leavitt. Notice the hyperbolic geometry of the awareness fields shown. Reality is made of perspectives (Ken Wilber, Concept of Indras Net). Reality is a giant mind (Leo, and more or less all traditions).

https://www.amazon.com/Enlightenment-Behind-Scenes-Marc-Leavitt/dp/1495398218

3) How to Approach Phenomenal Consciousness, Jac O'keeffe. She calls Ultimate Reality Totality Primary Consciousness

"the  fundamental primary phenomenal consciousness (her name for Ultimate Reality, Infinite Consciousness, the real you), it has a capacity. It doesn't even know  itself here. However, it has a capacity  to show up with a sense of emptiness (a subtle arising feeling/perception happening in you). To show  up as one. To show up as a one who can reflect  on itself and recognize that it is, and we  have the concept of existence. And it can  go from that sense of vast spaciousness and that  unified field into time, which appears as a dot. "

"We're left with consciousness (-> Primary Consciousness) that cannot know  itself. It's such a fundamental that it actually  can't know itself. However, it is known.  You can drop back there and it is known,  but you can't bring yourself there  or your capacities to know it.  It's almost like it's so fundamental  that it can't turn around and see itself.   It doesn't see itself. That's too much  movement (arisings, objects, subtle I-feelings/I-thoughts, not fully empty/infinite). That's movement such as space,  time and identification and me, myself, I,  and the building of my movie that happens"

Here she describes how Primary Consciousness is so empty that it cant turn around to see itself. Because that turning around would already be a movement, a arising, a subtle object within Primary consciousness/Real you.

4) Stephen Wolinsky, or how Empty is your Empty Witness or Supreme Witness:

from Wolinsky, Nothing Comes From Nothing

" Knowing or being aware of or consciousness of who you are is “one step” away from being who you are. This is why the Buddha said, “You might not necessarily be aware of your own enlightenment.

Why? Because there is no aware-er or awareness or knower or knowingness, to be aware of or know or know about or be conscious of the Absolute. And why Lakshamann Joo said, “Whenever you perceive something, you perceive it from one level lower.” (remark: You can never see the Absolute Reality/Consciousness, cause looking or searching for it is a movement of attention WITHIN IT. But you can understand it, be it, intuit it, from one level lower. The Supreme Witness is one of the last movements IN YOU/Reality looking for absolute consciousness, inducing an experience of it, which of course is not it because it is you).

Paradoxically As the Absolute there is no Absolute If the “I” or “you” “has an “experience” and believes it IS consciousness awareness infinite potential presence or that it IS an “imagined” infinity, then the “I” or “you” mistakenly assumes and projects that experience upon the Absolute.

Once that occurs the “I” or “you” then completely believes and ergo experiences that the Absolute also has or IS the experience of consciousness has or IS the experience of awareness has or IS the experience of infinite potential has or IS the experience of presence has or IS the experience of an “imagined” infinite.

Consciousness awareness infinite potential presence or an “imagined” infinite are the most subtle of the most subtle states and veils which give the illusion of awareness, the illusion of consciousness the illusion of presence and the illusion of both beingness and being conscious. This “experiential belief” of consciousness awareness infinite potential presence or an “imagined” infinite or “infinity, is an anthropomorphically projected experience of consciousness awareness infinite potential presence or an “imagined” infinite or “infinity. Thus giving the illusionary experience of awareness, the illusionary experience of consciousness the illusionary experience of presence and the illusionary experience of both beingness and being conscious.

Which are then Superimposed on the Absolute Nothingness. Simply stated, the experience of consciousness awareness infinite potential presence or an “imagined” infinite or “infinity is an experience. This experience gives the illusion of a beingness, isness or existence to these temporary subtle veils and experiences which are made of nothing. The Absolute is without the Absolute Nothingness

"

5) Prior to Nonduality Youtube-Channel:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9vlZGtpdFIts8GOG5vu27g

 

Mechanisms of Creation/Imagination/Manifestation:

Its important and nice to find out HOW you imagine this world with all of its infinite mechanism. And the first and fundamental mechanisms on how imagination/manifestation (in any universe/dimension) can occur can be understood (for example how the fundamental archetypes of space and time (giving "objects" or appearances that change in time), and the first "movements" (even if they are formless) of appearances in consciousness  are spawned out from the Infinite Consciousness/Reality. That is for example described by Ken Wilber as the manifestation of the first Archetypes at the causal stage (he calls it low causal, while high causal being the empty ultimate Godhead).

But since Reality/Spirit/God is able to manifest/imagine infinite Worlds, with totally different mechanism than our universe for example, by definition one will never be able to understand all of their mechanisms, since you dont have access to all Realities (and you couldnt while being human). And you can never explore all of them, by definition of what Infinity means.  That is what God/Reality itself is exploring. Leo mentioned that in "Outrageous Experiments In Consciousness - 30 Awakenings In 30 Days.", there are infinite dimensions of awakening. Which is, as mentioned, quite shocking.

But for sure its nice and important to grasp the fundamental mechanism of imagination/manifestation, which apply to all universes/dimensions (since all are appearances), and understanding that in your deepest being you are that one Reality. I believe these fundamentals are important to understand and realize and experience. Else "you" are stuck with believing experiencing Nonduality or Emptiness is it, while that is only the start to realize Infinity. 

And you can of course realize the Groud of Being, your true nature.

But one can never explore all mechanism of manifestation, since a human in its limited time can never explore all realms of manifestation (and there are for examples according to Jac O'Keffee and Stephen Wolinsky some truly alien realms that are not build with the building blocks of this Universe. Yet they are also only appearances).

So at some level one either says "Its details, and one can never explore all mechanism of manifestation, because even for God/Absolute Reality there are Infinite Realms of Appearances/Worls/Universes to explore", or it is a grasping for seeing as much as possible. Which is a high level recipe for nevery finding the constant peace/happiness independend of outer circumstances, the hallmark of the enlightened ones, and also nevery fully resting it. Maya is awe-inspiring, and her Illusion-Mechanisms (which are necessary for this Lila) go to the highest level also.

But understanding the fundamental mechanism of how manifestation/imagination occurs, how you fool yourself (Maya), what ultimate Reality/God/Spirit is, what other is, how Maya works, what one really is and how one imagines otherwise, that is all essential. And of course humanity will go exploring all of that (manifestation/imagination mechanisms, mechanisms of Maya, "going Psychonaut" and exploring it, exploring Ken Wilbers subtle and low causal realms and mapping them. He even said in the next 1000 years probably many new substages will show up and getting formed & described during exploration). This understanding will grow. Buddhism has evolved in the past, there is not even one Buddhism, there are many different streams, some more developed/sophisticated/efficient than others. I don't think Buddhism will disappear, so it will change and evolve by definition. Buddhism happens in Infinity, not the other way round.

And to conclude:

I hope this is interesting and helpful for some of you. It took me a long time to understand why there are so many, often contradicting statements in the spiritual traditions/teachers/psychonautic explorers, and how Reality is structured (and the differing perspectives & statements it supports and brings forth on various stages/states) to enable and support all of these differing perspectives, experiences and viewpoints. For sure, this picture isn't complete, but at least for me tells a story that for me is sufficient to continue my practice in peace and enjoy what it brings into my life, be able to sort all these often conflicting messages in a large and hopefully integral perspective, and stay interested in how Reality is structured that all of that can appear in it (the psychonaut approach). 

And of course its nearly impossible to communicate all of that in language. In case anybody has read all of the above until here: A metaphor that, if I remember correctly, also Ken Wilber once used:

Zen would deliver the much more precise summary, which is why I also like Zen a lot:

The old pond,

A frog jumps in:

Plop!

Matsuo Basho (1644-1694) 

[Based on Oct 23 Blog post... where to move from here?]

53 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Water by the River That is very good. That guy gets it.

Unfortunately such Buddhists are rarer than hen's teeth. I dare you to find one in real life who will guide you to his level of consciousness in a way you can actually follow.

What you have to keep in mind about such people is they tend to be very gifted. Which is why they are so rare. You are not going to find such a Buddhist at your local retreat.

I agree. The Quotes are from the Kunjed Gyalpo Tantra, a foundational text of Buddhist Dzogchen, ~1000 years old.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulayarāja_Tantra

So yes, you wont find this guy at a local retreat. And also Buddhism had to evolve to that point, these insights were not there in early Buddhism, but at the stage of the Kunjed Gyalpo Tantra they were.

And besides clearly defining the Ground of Being and the true nature of all beings, and how Infinite Consciousness or the Supreme Source manifests/imagines reality, they were also tripping and exploring its infinite creations, see "The Supreme Array Scripture: A Psychedelic Sutra for Buddhist Psychonauts, Douglas Osto". Of course in a medieval non-scientifiy lingo, but still fascinating.

If you read between the lines, there have been many realizers of that degree desribed in the Supreme Source/Kunjed Gyalpo Tantra in the Dzogchen and Mahamudra-Traditions. Both over the centuries, but also in our time. They tended and tend to hold back, because walking the fine line between expressing their deepest nature and not falling for spiritual pride is difficult, and expressing fully can easily be misunterstood.  

Despite much of Buddhism being dogmatic, and its effectiveness in producing realized ones has been low considering the total number of persons engaged in it, there are quite efficient techniques that are being brought to the West (For example Daniel Browns "Pointing out the Great Way").

I am convinced that they always used psychedelics (Secret Drugs of Buddhism: Psychedelic Sacraments and the Origins of the Vajrayana, Crowley). Ken Wilber for example also clearly states that people using Meditation AND psychedelics profit more than using either alone, see Video minute 3.

 

To conclude:

Osto, The Supreme Array Scripture:

"So how is the Supreme Array of use for the modern Buddhist psychonaut? First, it demonstrates how important visionary experience was for Mahāyāna Buddhism. Some modern traditions like Zen and Vipassana tend to downplay or disparage visions as at best distractions from the path, or as signs of mental imbalance. Why are visions so disparaged in these established forms of modern Buddhism? Because visionary spiritual is dangerous. It undermines the status quo of the institutionalized authority structures. If anyone can have a vision that reveals a higher order of reality, then the authority of the gurus is undermined. 

The Supreme Array also describes the correct Mahāyāna intention toward visionary experience – Sudhana’s one goal is omniscient buddhahood in order to save all beings. In other words, he has the “mind of enlightenment” (bodhicitta) and therefore his intention is pure when he enters an altered state and has visions. In this way, the Supreme Array also supplies some insight into the goal of visionary experience – visions for their own sake (the fireworks) are pointless. The goal is to gain insight into the Mahāyana Buddhist path so one can be a better bodhisattva. Moreover, the scripture provides insight into how visionary experience reveals a higher order of reality. Because of their emptiness, phenomena are dreamlike and illusory. And because all things lack inherent existence or are “empty,” everything interpenetrates and inter-reflects every other thing in the omniverse. Space and time are endless, but as the Chinese Huayan masters say, “The one contains the all, and the all contains the one.” Finally, the indescribable vastness of time and space revealed in the sūtra function to deconstruct our ordinary linear ways of viewing time and space, and expand our vision to include the entire cosmos. In this way, the personal stories of our lives are connected to the cosmic story of the bodhisattva’s journey to enlightenment."

 

[Based on Oct 23 Blog post... where to move from here?]

16 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, Buddhism is precise in that respect. But I have not read any Buddhist description of God-Realization. And no Buddhist I talk to can properly tell me what God is.

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, The Supreme Source:

"I am the teacher, pure and total consciousness, whence everything manifests. Pure and total consciousness is the supreme source, it has created the Buddhas of the three times, from it have arisen the beings of the three worlds and the whole animate and inanimate universe. [... ]

Pure and total consciousness has created everything and has not created anything. It has created everything because it has created its own nature, pure and total. It has not created anything because within it there exists no need to create. When my nature is not understood and the phenomena that manifest from me become the object of judgement, desire and attachment give rise to the creation of concrete vision that is impermanent and destined to vanish like a magical apparition, and one becomes like a blind man who does not know what is happening. [...I"

"As I transcend all affirmations and negations, I am beyond all phenomena. As no object exists that is not myself, I am beyond meditating on a view. As there is nothing to keep apart from myself, I am beyond a commitment to observe. As there is nothing to seek other than myself, I am beyond obtaining the capacity for spiritual action. As no place exists outside myself, I am beyond a level of realization to surpass. As I have never encountered obstacles, I am beyond [everything] as self-arising wisdom. As I am the ultimate unborn nature, I am beyond [everything] as the [true] subtle ultimate nature"

"I am called "the perfect condition" becauseeverything is contained in me. I am called "the source" because the teacher, teaching, and disciples arise from my three natures"

"I am the essence of all phenomena; nothing exists that is not my essence. The teachers of the three dimensions are my essence. The Buddhas of the three times are my essence. The Bodhisattvas are my essence. The four types of yogins are my essence. The three worlds, of desire, of form, and without form, too, are my manifestation. The five great elements are my essence. The six classes of beings are my essence. Everything inanimate is my essence. Everything that lives is my essence. All the habitats and the beings living therein are my essence. Nothing exists that is not my essence because I am the universal root: there is nothing that is not contained in me. The unborn, the wonder of birth, and the manifestation of energy are the three aspects of the three teachers: this is their condition."

"As the three times, past, present, and future, abide exclusively in me, all the Buddhas are in the same condition: this too is my essence. As I transcend the dualism of subject and object, like space I am allpervading, and I constitute the fundamental substance of all phenomena: my essence is pure and total consciousness. I, that am the source, abide in the single state, and in this same authentic condition the practitioners of the "four yogas"

"Realize my nature, the supreme source that is pure and total consciousness. Teach that all the phenomena of existence are only myself! If you transmit my teaching, all your disciples will realize my nature and will become this very nature.

"If my nature were to be compassionately displayed to the beings of the three worlds who have originated from me,....  Thus I, the supreme source, disclose my nature, displaying it to myself."

"Nothing other than this exists; none of the Buddhas have ever received a higher teaching than this from me, the source. Aside from this condition of equality beyond concepts, I myself, the supreme source whence everything arises, have absolutely nothing whatever to display to myself."

"Listen! As all of you are created by me, you beings of the three worlds are my children, equal to me, the supreme source. You are me, inseparable from me, so I manifest to you and through the five teachers of my natures I teach the single state of the five essences [of the elements]. I am the single state, I, the supreme source: you too are, you must become certain of this!"

"Listen, Sattvavajra! I will show you your own nature. You are me, the source. I am and have always been pure and total consciousness. What is pure and total consciousness?"

"Among all things existing in the animate and inanimate universe, there is not one single thing that has not been created by me, nor is there a cause that does not derive from me. Thus I am the essence of all, and nothing surpasses me. I am superior to the three dimensions, to the Buddhas of the three times, to the Vidyadharas, to the Bodhisattvas, to the beings of the three worlds, to the whole animate and inanimate universe, because I am the maker of all. Before there was any other teaching I, that am the source, pure and total consciousness, disclosed the teaching of pure and total
consciousness."

[Buddhism isn't only about freedom from suffering.]

• For psychedelic use in Christianity in medieval times: "The Psychedelic Gospels: The Secret History of Hallucinogens in Christianity", Brown
• For psychedelic use in the origins of Christianity (as a psychedelic cult similiar to the Elusian Mysteries. Anybody wonder what the wine/Eucharist was, that produced the holy communion with the Father/Dharmakaya/Infinite Consciousness): "The Immortality Key: The Secret History of the Religion with No Name", Muraesku
• For psychedelic use in prehistoric times/Neolitic, for example in Göbekli Tepe: "The Immortality Key: The Secret History of the Religion with No Name", Muraesku
• In prehistoric times (old Stone Age and probably before): 
  • "Visionary: The Mysterious Origins of Human Consciousness the Definitive Edition of Supernatural", Hancock 
  • "Food of the Gods: The Search for the Original Tree of Knowledge A Radical History of Plants, Drugs, and Human Evolution", McKenna
• And for the organization who pretty much finished psychedelic use in the West (more or less)
  • first in original early Christianity, and later what remained of it in medieval and renaissance times, and who had a habit to burn those at the stake knowledable in it:  
    • "The Immortality Key: The Secret History of the Religion with No Name", Muraesku
    • The Witches' Ointment, Hatsis

So nature is drenched in all kinds of psychedelics/DMT, and it seems humanity always used that.

 

By the way for some further story telling, here in Germany there is the so called Reinheitsgebot/ German purity law for beer:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinheitsgebot

Not that anybody dropped anymore funny stuff into the beer, like henbane, belladonna, nightshade....

"Religious conservatism may have also played a role in adoption of the rule in Bavaria, to suppress the use of plants that were allegedly used in pagan rituals, such as gruit, henbane, belladonna, or wormwood.[5][6]: 410–411  The rule also excluded problematic methods of preserving beer, such as soot, stinging nettle and henbane.[7]"

It seems like at a certain point in Roman times the "sneak peek" to the Divine Reality or your face before your parents were born via psychedelics got firmly shut from the competition that claimed the monopoly of the path to God/Spirit/Salvation, which was supposed to happen not by direct experience but by the right beliefs.

And since exactly that West and its Church conquered more or less the rest of the world, they also didn't really like psychedelics anywhere they found them...  

To use the words of Ken Wilber: Apparently, Spirit is not yet tired of playing this game...  But "it" for sure left some bread crumbs to find the way back home, following a wonderful, twisted, dramatic, hilarious, tragic, beautiful, exciting and fascinating path...

[Buddhism isn't only about freedom from suffering.]

"Secret Drugs of Buddhism: Psychedelic Sacraments and the Origins of the Vajrayana" by Michael Crowley, Buddhist Lama:

• Vajrayana or Tantric Buddhism in India (before it got destroyed and survived in an altered form in Tibet/China/Japan) is basically early Buddhism + use of Psychedelics (original Amrita used in Rituals = psychedelic brew/mushrooms/...)",
  • which later got more or less lost when Buddhism was institutionalized (indepdendant Siddhas replaced by monasteries, tripping monks/nuns probably didn't work very well discipline-wise).
  • The visualizations of the Tantric Development Phase (Anuttarayoga) were done under Psychedelic Influence (Ganachakra/Amrita).
  • Even in Tibetan Buddhism supposedly lineages of psychedelic use are still alive (Dutsi pills), although of course nowhere nearly as strong as it was in India, where much more psychedelic plants were growing.
  • And the psychedelic rituals for sure helped to get a preview of ones own always present true face/Dharmakaya/Infinite Consciousness.

Even in the Mahayana phase after early Buddhism, but preceding Vajrayana/Tantric Buddhism, there are strong psychedelic clues left:

• The Supreme Array Scripture: A Psychedelic Sutra for Buddhist Psychonauts", Paper by Douglas Osto
• Many Sutras are full of exploration of the vast other universes & dimensions of reality, including of the workings of reality/imagination.
• "Altered states and the origins of the Mahāyāna  (Douglas Osto)"

And before Buddhism "Hinduism"/"Yoga"/Upanishads/Vedas all had strong psychedelic plant connections, as in the West (Books of Carl Ruck, and for example The Immortality Key: The Secret History of the Religion with No Name).