Blackhawk

I think the whole point with enlightenment is that you supposedly transcend from the world. So it wouldn't be any problem for you even if your body gets tortured in prison. Since you are not the body. But I don't know if I believe that enlightenment exists. That no one can even agree on what enlightenment is, also indicates that maybe enlightenment is just another fairytale story made up by wishful thinking humans.

But life in this world requires that at least some people work, no matter what. Physical existence in this world is impossible without work.. For physical existence you need shelter, food and clothes. And healthcare would also be a good thing. All those things require work. And also you must impress on the women (compete against men), that maybe requires most work of all. Otherwise the specie would die. And it would be weird if the unenlightened people must work as slaves for the enlightened people (otherwise the latter would die) because the enlightened people refuse to work.

So enlightenment and 9 to 5 work doesn't work together or what? Why not? Supposedly enlightenment/liberation sets you free no matter what circumstances your body is in (or if it dies). So that means you would be free even while working 9 to 5.

You would never work a single day without salary, but you are supposed to work and suffer a entire freaking life without any salary whatsoever. And you don't even know how you got here. Reality and life is so absurd that I almost get a stroke when I think about it.

I feel like shit. I think it's really frustrating and weird that this life and all included suffering seems to be completely unnecessary. Meaning, there is probably no reward after you finish this life. So there is no meaning to any of this. Why do we live? I don't get it. It's all for nothing. It's like you would struggle and struggle with a task, but you don't know why you do it and there's nothing to gain from it, no salary, no reward, nothing. I really hate this shit. Fuck everything. Really just screw everything. I don't want any of this, I really really don't. (This is how I'm currently feeling.) And don't say that I create the meaning. Or that I create all this. Or that I create anything at all. Just don't, because it's not true. Clearly clearly not. But I guess I don't know this either. But it feels super super unlikely that I'm the creator.

If greater consciousness is good, then animals are living in hell? Since their consciousness is much lower than for humans. If they are not living in hell: why not?

And also, you're saying "opportunity to change his life".. You need to separate the truth and what is good for your life. Don't assume that truth equals to a better life. But maybe it does, I don't know. This issue with wishful thinking is huge. Your mind will convince you of anything that is good for your life. Just look at how many religious people and other crazy deluded people there are. But again, maybe Christianity or whatever is true, I don't know. I just don't always end everything I say with "but I don't know".

"Nurture".. Well, that's one way of saying that you have to believe in the experience.

That's a good one, but did he really say that? What is your source?

Why do you think I don't doubt my doubts? I do. And that just makes the problem even bigger. So how is that supposed to be a solution?

I knew some smartass would take it literally like that. Of course I don't really know what people will say. And I also must "know" some stuff for me to be able to function in the world. For example I "know" that eating 11 pounds of rocks every day is a bad idea, etc. Now you're talking about something different: awareness/consciousness. I'm inclined to agree that awareness can't be a hallucination.

And also "everything is hallucination" doesn't solve the problem either. Maybe that's true, maybe it's not true, who the hell knows. Just have to respond to the stuff you guys will say before you say it, because I know what people will say.

Another thing which kind of pisses me off is the selective experience cherry picking which you guys choose to believe in. For example (extreme example) if my direct experience is that reality is hell (not love at all), then you guys say: "that's a false experience. That's not at all the truth. I don't like feeling bad so it must be untruth." And then if I experience that reality is love and all that nice and cute stuff then you guys will say "yes that experience is the truth. Oh so nice everything is, let's have a orgy and feel good together." Sorry. I had to vent a bit. I'll calm down now.

The problem is of course that any experience can be explained away as a unreal hallucination. I have experienced stuff, which I later classified as hallucinations. A few days ago I had a discussion with a guy on a different forum who had clinically died and had a full blown near death experience. He have also on psychedelics and during meditation experienced everything that people in this forum like to talk about. And he explains them all away as unreal hallucinations, he's still a materialist and doesn't believe in life after death and so on. You might object with "then he's just stupid and/or low conscious." Maybe, or maybe not, who the hell knows. But it proves that experience doesn't prove shit. It requires belief to believe in experience. You can believe that the experience shows either the truth or untruth.

I have bought many of the books.

Science is meaningless? Everything is science. You wouldn't been able to write that post without science. We know that earth is round because of science. Your toilet exists thanks to science. Etc.

Jesus Christ, if you are going to attack Leo and actualized.org then at least try to do it based on something which is true. People are so stupid.

Because animals are blessed with being less conscious than humans. So they don't suffer nearly as much.

I think the fucked up part is that I also don't know if I don't know.. So "I know that I don't know" is nuts. It fucks up your head.. I guess it's a strangeloop or whatever Leo likes to call it. Or just a paradox. Whatever.

A good article imo: https://highexistence.com/consciousness-spiritual-perspective/ I like "panspiritism", it feels right to me and makes sense etc. That Steve Taylor guy has also wrote a book called "Spiritual Science". Description of the book: "It is often assumed that there are two ways of interpreting the world: a rational scientific way, or an irrational religious way. Spiritual Science offers a third alternative: a spiritual view of reality that transcends both conventional science and religion, and answers many of the riddles that neither can explain. The standard model of science has had little success in explaining such areas as human consciousness, the connection between the mind and the body, altruism and ‘anomalous’ phenomena such as near-death experiences, psi phenomena (such as telepathy) and spiritual experiences. But from a ‘panspiritist’ point of view – which sees spirit or consciousness as a fundamental essence of reality – it is possible to make sense of all these things. Steve Taylor puts forward the evidence for a spiritual view of reality, drawing on the insights of philosophers, physicists, mystics, as well as spiritual traditions and indigenous cultures. He systematically shows how a ‘panspiritist’ view can explain many puzzling aspects of science and the world, including evolution and the origins of life, and a wide range of other phenomena such as quantum physics, the placebo effect, precognition and neuroplasticity. Spiritual Science offers a new vision of the world that is compatible with both modern science and ancient spiritual teachings. It provides a more accurate and holistic account of reality than conventional science or religion, integrating a wide range of phenomena that are excluded from both. After showing how the materialist worldview demeans the world and human life, Spiritual Science offers a brighter alternative – a vision of the world as sacred and interconnected, and of human life as meaningful and purposeful. Spiritual Science explains how the standard materialist model of reality developed, and turned into a belief system. This belief system can only function by denying (or explaining away) a whole range of phenomena that are part of human experience. It is possible to be scientific without adopting this belief system – in fact, it is much more rational to do so." @Leo Gura

No. Curiosity killed the cat.

Well, I would start with questioning the notion that you have created reality. That people say that you have created reality doesn't necessarily mean it's true.

@Dazgwny @neovox Could be just unreal hallucinations. It's just that you believe that the experience showed the Truth. Many other people have chosen to believe that such experiences which they have had are unreal hallucinations.

Don't you guys ever get tired of fantasizing? Shouldn't you at some point admit to yourself that you don't know? In this thread there are as many different "answers" (beliefs) to the question as there are posts in this thread.

So imagine/experience that you own a Ferrari SF90 Stradale.