Gidiot

the need to create massive value is very materialistic, as if you could measure it objectively and quantify for each individual, a critique of Marxism is that they assume every human creates the same value, which is untrue, but what is true is what is valuable to society may not be valuable to each individual, another word for value is love, and what i love and the love i create should be unique to me, and i just dont jive with this attitude of create it or else, life is spontaneous and like others in this thread have said, society isnt built to facilitate massive value creation and the world doesnt need more jeff bezos or bill gates, the world needs authentic individuals who honor their authentic likes talents and abilities, who gives a shit if someone is a barista or playing video games all day, they aint hurting anyone, they dont need to be on some great mission, and really how could you tell, that barista could be more awake than you. I truly think the more wise you get the less "massive value" you feel compelled to make and it either comes naturally or you "go with the flow" who will the followers be if we all become leaders? who will help you with your dreams if each person has their own? I mean just think about it, It sounds sexy if we were all just highly creative individuals, answered to no one, were completely self sufficient and mastered survival, but that ideal sounds more utopian than anything marx ever wrote. society is a balance and a give and take, work isnt effective if you are forced, coerced, desperate, or have no other options but to do it, there needs to be some higher purpose than survival in an ideal society. im not against creating massive value, but just very skeptical that it can be quantified in an objective way and then to judge and value people on their ability to meet that goal seems very childish to me, sure you can say im just trying to justify my incompetence, but clearly Im not in love with society and the way it "works" and honestly there needs to be Vanaprastha, any healthy society allows people to go their own way, i could just as easily say society is using politics to justify its selfishness and greediness and wage slavery society doesnt owe me anything, but in turn neither do I owe it anything.

Survival is literally the easiest thing in the world, you can eat two bites of an apple every day and survive an awful long time. It’s just that I think at the heart of socialism is the innate human need to THRIVE. Under most capitalistic societies we are only just surviving and we are scared and worried of being homeless because we know no one is going to give a shit about us if we are on the street. If survival needs are met for everyone, of course there will be lazy people who coast by on society but there will be far more people who are now empowered to be the best human they want to be. At least this is my understanding of it. people act like money is the only reason to work. I work on plenty of crap in my life and literally none of it is because of money, I think that is a flaw in people’s thinking. You don’t do what you love because it pays well you do what you love because it’s what you love. Socialism at its best would empower that. of course there are plenty of jobs no one will want to do if there isn’t a survival need to do them, but I think of that as a minor problem, I think the bigger problem is meeting everyone’s survival needs first. And you’d be simply lying if you said the resources don’t exist to do exactly that in most countries around the world. It’s more of a human development problem than anything, we don’t need socialism or communism we just need people who give a shit and want to do more with their day than just go to work and come home on autopilot

Alan watts has a good quote, why is it so important the human species keep on surviving? We certainly don’t have to. gay people are only a threat to people who aren’t open minded. There’s also the loophole of bisexual, of course you can have plenty of homosexual sex and still propagate the species, so lgbt isn’t a legitimate threat I mean it ain’t some strangers job to make you feel secure about the survival of the human race, you can’t mandate someone’s survival. Or the survival of the human race, if you must go on then life becomes hell, it’s no longer fun anymore, a problem with traditional and conservative world views. even back in the early 2000s when homophobia was a lot more prevalent I never gave a care about the fear. there are some people I really love and care deeply about that are very backwards on this issue.

There’s no need to actualize, honestly it’s just a preference and it seems there’s really nothing special about a preference, someone who likes vanilla is not better than someone who likes chocolate. So much self righteousness from people on this forum. If you enjoy having money, societies version of success, women, fun, more understanding then go for it. But it’s not like it ultimately matters in anyway. And if it matters to you, the reality of the situation is one day it might not. So basically it all boils down to a current preference, I say all preferences are natural anyway so don’t worry and you’re right who cares

Yea, it’s a pretty profound realization, that all purpose is meaningless and reality ultimately has no requirements or direction in which you must traverse. It’s all absolutely and unequivocally an ego game of : action> justification of that action> rationalization> fitting the rationalization into a story> letting the stories form the character, and it is very beautiful but you’ll excuse me if I have no interest in playing it, I suppose it’s going to keep on keeping on whether I want it to or not. If I had my wish I’d will it to be as I want but to my experience that’s not how this game works. So here “I” am and I’m along for the ride, I’m going to tough it out because I can’t literally imagine the alternative bahaha

@axiom it’s moot to argue which extreme is worse imo, they obviously aren’t the same, you need to wings to fly and all that but to say that all older people should be right wing is insane, what if I don’t care about the family unit, fiscal money saving, having a strong economy, national pride, stage blue values and I value in my life more compassion, cohesiveness, selflessness, joy and doing things on purpose rather than just doing things for the sake of it, most conservative traditional positions don’t appeal to me, not to say I can’t change, but what is so dumb about favoring left wing agendas? It’s such a big mistake to think that the younger generation wants to put people in a gulag it’s not even worth addressing. They want the socialism of Scandinavia not soviet Russia and communist China

Razard86 you a genius. Gidiot95 approves. But please don’t gaslight me or go ape shit on my ass! I like your little mindfucky posts

If a monks life is so easy I don’t see hoards of people doing it. the “worldly” people have always existed, in a sense it’s easier to live with no responsibilities, but also it’s harder having no distractions and egoic things to obtain, because the mind has nothing to cling to, it’s like torture for the modern man who is so overstimulated, I know you already know this, but a monks life is probably the hardest life you can live, because you choose it, if you’re enslaved at least you can somebody else made you, but when you willingly give up worldy possessions attachments and other things there are no excuses and you can’t escape the amount of humility it takes to beg for your food every day and let go and trust the universe and others to take care of you is more brave than someone shrouding themselves in creature comforts, security and safety. like fast food a nice house, a sexy wife to bang and more money than they actually need along with endless entertainment podcasts tv shows and games to play, it’s almost like you don’t even have to challenge yourself, because ultimately you need other things to be happy, the bravest and wisest man is that who gives up trying and is fearless enough to let the wind blow their sails. Just my opinion, I’m probably just reacting this way because I have a stage orange shadow but I truly don’t think either path is necessarily easier than the other, but I’d say once you’ve been indoctrinated into societies bullshit, if you can then drop it all and become less worldly, that is a feat of strength in itself

Reality is bittersweet, it can’t change fast enough for the liberals and it can’t stay the same enough for the conservatives

Yea that was a great speech

Survival doesn’t have to be hard and brutal, I feel like that gets tossed around as a concept which is kind of like a cop out to justify all your egoic notions or why you need to do certain actions like choose a mate or make money, but really in 2022 in america or most first world nations, there is nothing saying survival and dating has to be hard, I agree OP that it’s not the brutality of survival why people are poor it’s the hoarding greed/ pursuit of happiness greatness good live which causes people to overlook to the suffering of their fellow man, you can’t just shrug your shoulders and say that’s nature because there is literally no evidence for your claim. Humans could cure poverty and hunger tomorrow, we have the resources it’s a proven fact, and people could lighten up and see each other for their being and attitude and amount of compassion/love instead of perceived attractiveness based on “biological survival instincts” and material wealth. it just requires a change in mindset, I’m not saying that any girl or any guy is owed to someone else… people should have absolute freedom and autonomy to choose their significant other or date or friend or whatever, but it isn’t a brutal hard and cold reality which can only be done effectively if you master attraction, that’s of course one way of doing it, but don’t act like it’s the only way even if it’s the most optimal for the current time period of how society is structured. And it’s kind of gaslighting to say “ well make yourself attractive” as if it’s something nature and life is explicitly saying, “attractive” qualities is to relative to pin down even if there is overlap between people. There is more than one way to skin a cat and I guess I blame humanity for their brutal methods and rationalization of shallow attitudes just as much as I blame myself for not caring about this stuff. I guess my final point is there is no way to guarantee a guy will get a fufilling life by conforming to “brutal survival/dating game”. If you think my argument is bullshit than what do we do about all the perceived “ugly people” there is no fool proof solution to intimacy/love/truth in relationships and humanity could be making the process a whole lot easier, just like nature, some things are very harmonious when observed and other very brutal, humanity has the capacity to make dating into a very harmonious, playful and cruelty/suffer free experience. and people come with all different capacities and abilities to actualize “attractiveness” its equally his fault for not conforming as it is the system for not accommodating if you think about it, it’s more complex than just an individual issue.

its so great not needing another human to feel worthy of life dont expect to change women or men let them be as ignorant as possible and naturally learn from their mistakes or not. I personally find it terrible when someone puts expectations on you before they even know you. i actually think i could date an unattractive person and go against my biology quite easily but im much different than the average person, i couldnt care less about family children, te expectation of providing for someone( if i provided for someone which is a natural byproduct of love, it would be spontaneous and in my own way, not out of some silly expectation. ) or what material things they could provide for me. i care about the intimacy and love, there is truth to making yourself an "attractive man" of course, but theres also much truth to not giving a shit and not playing the dating game and allowing for the universe to surprise you. OP just compromise with women or be brave enough to not settle for anything less than someone who can put all those expectations aside, this is the path im on.

im more of a lurker, rarely say anything unless it excites me

@Razard86 mostly the monotony the struggle, the void, the seeking energy as they call in in neo advaita, or karma or whatever, I dislike being limited and resist “my little egoic experience” there’s certainly a beauty to this life but the duality is annoying as all heck. I truly don’t think I need to do anything to get to anywhere and yet it’s almost like I’m being unconsciously dragged along. I’m not good at the game, and don’t see the point in mastering it, because I’m still a human with limitations and I wish there was an option to play a different one

People would stop caring about the economy if their survival needs were met. And that’s all I have to say really, the vast majority only care about this crap because it effects their survival $2 more dollars here and there for gas. Like it’s such a huge issue, I say undermine the whole worry about the economy. And I don’t know the reality, but human greed is a huge problem so I’m going to probably blame that.

Well said razard. I’m starting to get fed up with my creation though.

I feel the same way Kael, but I just have to assume it what is it and it’s out of my understanding in this limited form, I don’t know shit and no practice is going to help me from my experience. Psychedelics could but I have medical reasons preventing me from taking them.

@Thought Art yes the hamster wheel must turn and you must like it. Whether it’s important or valuable is useless haha what a joke, humanity is doomed

The great thing to sacrifice is your justification to work for your survival

I mean I like hearing the excesses of the left because it keeps me honest but I have real hard time accepting people needing to be denied their survival for “growth” if we can otherwise help them survive. Please help me to understand

agreed, I love challenging my own worldview, but it did leave me with a question. valid criticism is that we are getting soft as a society with all our creature comforts and survival aint as cutthroat as it used to be. Leo says that we shouldn't coddle people and should make sure there is a challenge in life, but what does this entail? obviously, I highly respect the Amish, but society can't go back to those times, the toothpaste is out of the tube. I think Leo strawmans a bit, not that many people are content with just sitting on the couch all day watching NetFlix nor do I think that having an "easier" society will make this. there is an inert human drive to accomplish things, I just think we have to reimagine how society looks, its stupid to think that we will always be competing as society evolves and yes while there won't be people who create the same amount of value as others, we can't all be Elon musk or Jeff Bezos, so in that case, I think making survival easier will be good. I don't think reality is dumb enough anyway, it has a trickster element to it, once we solve the problem of a hard survival life with creature comforts Ubi, etc, there will be other problems we don't even know that will come up. just wanted to hear your thoughts. There will always be a challenge to life, it's just a matter of the degree of how much challenge "the majority" of people should or could tolerate. I do get a bit triggered by the advent that we should not try to make life easier because that will eliminate growth, i think that if society ever got to a point where people en masse were complaining that life is too easy and life is boring and unchallenging then that would be a good time to address this notion, but the reality is that there is a shit ton of people through no fault of their own on the streets or maybe people who cant blossom into a fully-fledged human being without assistance by a compassionate hand whether it be governmental or individual. I think that is one of my critiques of Leo's point, if everyone is challenged and struggling with basic survival and this is good, to me it makes for a much worse society than could be actualized when basic survival is met within reason for everyone. I mean take me for example, i am disabled and i get disability money, but by no means is the challenge of life over. I still struggle to master emotions, being compassionate, and understanding reality, integrating my shadow, seeing reality as it is and not how I want it to be and becoming more educated, I'm definitely not ambitious materially but there are many things i want to try and luckily not having to worry and slave at a 9-5 has given me that freedom. I think maximizing human autonomy and our freedom to spend our time in whichever way we please is more important than forcing people to struggle for their survival. i mean you could always adopt an ancient culture way of putting people through vision quests or rights of passage ( fasting, pilgrimage, boy scout bear Grylls type shit) to teach them the value of struggle, but i don't think in a civilized society of the future it should be a default reality for people. In the other thread Leo you talked about how black people being systemically enslaved and oppressed for 250 years as a group ruins their IQ and other societal factors, to a way lesser degree imagine what this wage slavery and paycheck-to-paycheck living is doing to people, and we shouldn't try to alleviate that? and if you disagree to what extent is healthy/unhealthy? plus there is always the truth that for the most beautiful society/garden you cant have all of the same flowers doing the same shit, some people are going to contribute little to nothing of "use" and just look pretty like mystics, poets, artists, (flowers), some are going to be vegetables and have some use and value to nearly everyone, sure also there will be weeds but those will hopefully be in the minority, im not dumb enough to think this garden couldnt be overrun by weeds but i just think more plants can grow in well tended to environment. i might be spewing bullshit but to me this is my perspective that I've absorbed. we gotta balance our notions of challenge and growth with the reality of the person's ability to respond to it. i think over a mass scale the solution is to help out. and if you think this is all a big cope because i don't want to provide value to society, my answer would be I probably agree. i am so far outside the norm of a typical human being that i basically believe i cant functionally contribute in the way most people want me to. so my pseudo-life purpose is for advocating for an easier survival for all, we do live in the dark ages and yes I am naive for expecting change so soon, but if the ideal isn't working together to make things easier and more autonomous for all to actualize a better life than i want no part in this game, reality is better off without this dream character

i mean honestly I dont blame you man, we play these games and to what end, you make up the rules but the apparent ego is powerless, and then we are supposed to enjoy it, i mean dont get me wrong there is a beautiful balance to life, but doesnt mean i have to/like/love all the terrible shit and the only way out is a psychedelic? or meditating for a bagillion hours? or a horrificly painful suicide, seems like im a shit designer.

i mean even if you can increase your chances it ain't guaranteed, I did kriya yoga religiously for five years and nothing. i certainly dreamed up a challenging and annoying dream

people should be working 120 hour weeks and never get any rest.

its as if having a low IQ makes you unworthy or lesser of a person or less deserving of life, this is the same problem I have with saying be useful or die, it shouldnt matter your iq level, your performance on tests or ability to create value, as long as youre not hurting anyone you deserve life and to enjoy this dream without being compared and contrasted with others who may or may not do better than you, its so silly, im not saying black people are lower IQ, but if they were, so what? what does it change about reality? should they bow down and kiss the ring of Elon musk and jeff bezos and bill gates, its a joke.