Ulax

@Raptorsin7 I think Owen is a quality PUA coach, and I don't find that video particularly persuasive, from what I saw of it. I just think its a mistake to select Tate like figures as your role model. I think its unhealthy and I doubt the usefulness of those types, especially relative to other potential mentors. But, hey, if we have a difference of opinion, then we have a difference opinion.

@ZzzleepingBear I agree. However, the point I intended to make was that love doesn't desire the object of love. There can be love without desire for the object of love, imo.

I disagree with premise 2. If you've ever done loving-kindness meditation, you might have experienced a love-like state where you have wished someone well, despite them not being around you. You just want the best for them.

@Vercingetorix Okay dude. I think this is going to create an uncomfortable situation for all parties involved if you do it. I think this is a pretty unsocially calibrated thing to be intending to do.

@hyruga I actually mostly agree with you. However, I think we have to realistic regarding who we recommend to the demographic who resonates with Tate like figures. I think Cook is a realistic person to recommend, who represents a healthier message than Tate, at least in most aspects, imo. @mmKay I think there is a lot of value to those two mentors. I've watched a decent amount of both of them, and respect various aspects of their teachings. I think they would be healthier folks to be taken on as role models than Tate and Owen Cook. So it makes sense to me why you recommend them. However, I wouldn't recommend them as role models to the demographic who resonates with Tate. I don't think its realistic to expect that Tate fans would resonate with these two. Thinking about it again, It might even be better to recommend Todd first than Cook, who, imo, is the most analytical and closest to being manipulative out of the RSD guys I know. I think Tate resonators would click most with him. Then hope they can absorb some higher consciousness ideas alongside him from the other instructors. That said, because of the youtube pickup culling, I doubt whether much of the RSD teaching are really that accessible to people.

Bruh, that's scary as shit lmao

@Raptorsin7 Have you checked out Owen Cook before?

Hey dude, I'd recommend this book: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Social-Skills-Guidebook-Shyness-Conversations-ebook/dp/B01AU8C766 However, I also agree with @NoSelfSelf. I believe once you have resolved enough trauma then socialising will be relatively straightforward. That said, just to check all bases, I think its important to look into demographic and neurodivergence. Firstly, if you are in a location where people just simply aren't very friendly or are hostile to you because of something you cannot change it may be best to move. Secondly, I think its worth looking into whether you have something like autism, ADHD etc. Though, to my understanding, neurodivergence symptoms and trauma symptoms can often mask as one another, so I'd recommend watching some videos by therapists on how to tell the difference.

@Leo Gura Leo is there an alternative role model you could recommend to these folks here? One that will likely resonate with them but imbue more healthy versions of red and orange.

I get you have a certain desire to do that. However, living in civil society requires resisting our desires when it would be inappropriate to fulfil them. I think this would be one such instance. I don't think you should compliment random girls on their attractiveness if they seem below the relevant age of consent.

@Nilsi Lmao ?

Hey Raze, Regarding the shared links, here's what I'd say. I think the gym one is a well meaning girl trying to protect another girl. I think girls sometimes do that to give another girl an out if they want. Although I empathise with the doubt created by the seeming hostilities towards the approacher in the tweet's comment. So it makes sense to me that you'd be concerned about non effective approaches being seen as harrassment due to the gym situation. That said, if that was an actual approach it seems a bit uncalibrated to me, by content alone. She knows nothing about this random guy apart from that he approached her in the gym, and whatever his first impression was. That approach would have built hardly any comfort, imo. I think the issue with the TSA guy probably provokes a stronger reaction because it is seen as a lack of professionalism on the part of the TSA guy. Although, it does seem harsh to me nonetheless. Finally, it may also have just been that the vibes of both these guys may have seemed seriously off. I'm guessing you've met some wings who when you've watched approached you've actually felt uncomfortable for the girl? Its probably that sort of dude that is getting these reactions. ------------------- Re changing approaches, I think it'd be useful to always chuck in a statement of empathy. I.e. I understand this is random. I wouldn't do the london daygame stop. Just walk with. I agree with Todd that it isn't very calibrated anyway. I'd also dress in a socially calibrated way as well. I've met some pickup guys who walk around in a tux and snake skin shoes during daygame which just doesn't seem socially calibrated at all. I guess mostly just be socially calibrated. Maybe you are already. But so many pickup dudes aren't. That's my two cents. That said, I think it can be a tough one these days to work out where to draw the line nonetheless.

@spiritual memes Thanks :)

@spiritual memes You're welcome. Ye dude similar experience with IFS, and background regarding child abuse. Wishing you continued good luck with the process

@spiritual memes Nice one man :) Sounds like you're off to a great start!

@Nilsi I disagree. However, based on our current type of communications, I don't think its worth us continuing to talk on this thread. So, I'll end my side of discussions here.

@Kksd74628 I am not intending to show stage green as superior. I am intending to explain that there is something you can only get by doing a majority of stage green work. I've already explained that I believe all stages ought to be integrated. "I have made it very easy for you to admit that we actually agree on things, but it feels that you are trying to defend your stage green perspective for some reason that I don't even know why". I'm not hiding a belief that we actually agree on things. I actually don't think we agree lol. Regarding your comment about my attitude towards lower stages, I don't think I have expressed a negative attitude towards them on this thread. Finally, regarding what seems to be your psychological analysis of the basis of my views, I don't see that as being the main basis of my views. I also don't like the way you're talking to me in that last paragraph. --------------- I think based on the current state of our discussion, I'm going to end this discussion with you here.

Hey dude, I've never dealt with it myself, nor know an expert opinion. Sorry to hear you've been going through this btw. However, I do have a general recommendation I want to make. I'd seek out an expert mentor in the relevant field and do what they say to do. If the approach of that mentor doesn't work, then move on and try another.

@Kksd74628 Okay, I still do think we disagree. I generally agree that there are more than one way to do things. However, there are many things that in so doing will only bring you X results and will not give you Y results. For example, if don't have sufficient stage green experiences in your life at the right times then you will not love yourself - no amount of stage orange, red, or blue experiences/ integration can make up for that. Also, I don't understand why you are referring to by my 'method'. I do agree with your metaphor and your commentary on debates. However, I don't think they apply critically to any of what I've said in this thread.

@spiritual memes How many you on lol?

@Kksd74628 I get you. I do agree with you on some things. I.e. I agree with you about integrating all levels of the spiral. I just think we disagree on what will solve certain psychological issues men/ people are facing. I do speak from my own experience. However, I also speak from a substantial background of formal and self study. For example, attachment theory, IFS, modern trauma therapies, and spiral dynamics.

@Nilsi It could do. However, it would matter on the place that talking to a cute girl or lifting some weights was coming from. For example, if part of you wanted to talk to a cute girl, and by you talking to her it helped that part build trust with you then sure. However, if someone was to use either of those things in the typical way they're used, i.e. to prove something to oneself, to push oneself out their comfort zone, emotional gratification etc. That does not work for self love. Self love is primarily about acceptance and care for what is, making it a stage green phenomena.

I mostly disagree. "There are lot of other methods and some approaches work for some and different to others. So people should contemplate what makes them feel that they're weak and then do things needed to change that picture of themself" I think the issue here is that when you're traumatised, without adequate psychoeducation, you will generally have a completely inaccurate picture of why you're 'weak' and what you need to do to overcome it. Alice miller is a famous psychotherapist who talks about adults who were abused as kids. She talks about the concept of idealisation. It refers to a phenomena where those abused as children will often idealise their childhoods. So, if these adults sat down and tried to contemplate, without psychoeducation, why they suffer as they do, they wouldn't be able to accurately pinpoint it. Often because of popular society, they'll blame it on something like the fact they're not getting laid, or that they're not rich, or something else other than the actual cause. "Usually the best way to overcome trauma is to prove your trauma wrong showing yourself that you're very capable" Regarding this, I guess I would somewhat agree. I think its important to prove to ourselves that we are capable. However, I think we'd disagree on what process we'd need to use, re showing ourselves as being capable. We also may disagree on what it means to be capable.

@Nilsi Because you have to learn to love the parts of you. And loving yourself is stage green. By butterflies and rainbows, I suspect you are saying something similar to trauma recovery is more than just learning to love yourself. And I agree. I think it takes work with stage red, and blue, too. I.e. red for enforcing boundaries, and blue for establishing your boundaries which are important. However, establishing and enforcing healthy boundaries requires loving yourself if you lack stage green. Loving yourself is the majority of trauma work. And its stage green. Therefore, the majority of trauma recovery work is stage green.

@Hugo Oliveira Could you provide an example? I.e. a short video of him speaking about something