Roy

I don't think you're fully grasping what infinity means lol.

The neurotic urge to be always "right" and not "wrong" and "perfect" is a very materialist, fact of the matter, ego based attitude to have. As is the applause you're giving it. That's not only fine but necessary when the context is mostly scientific and pragmatic. Of course details matter. But too often Sam and others alike spend and waste so much damn time checking semantics instead of connecting to the larger human picture. Even if you have a stage Yellow attitude and strategy and intentions going in, you can still get triggered and bogged down like he does and come out of the discussion with neither person having learned anything. If he was truly a pure stage Yellow thinker like you believe this wouldn't occur nearly as often as it does. Believe me mate, I've probably consumed and followed him just as much of him as you have. Possibly more who knows :P! I'm sure there would be some fruitful nuggets to be had from him talking to a Turquiose Guru. But I'd be willing to bet there would be a lot more of Sam getting frustrated and focusing too much running every concept and idea that came his way through his filter of logic and rationality. He is still too invested in Orange. It's clear as day. Sam needs to stop all his books and projects, quit social media. public interviews and showings for a year, take his family and go live in a cabin, do isolated meditation retreats every so often, and take psychedelics a few more times. If he did all that and came back he would be a fucking POWERHOUSE and would lift millions more people from ignorance.

When you have the capacity to do Absolute Good, and your actions aren't in accordance with that capacity; You are failing as a Spiritual being.

@Endangered-EGO You are thinking too much in absolutes. The spiral is blended, it's not a blocked staircase with strict walls around every quality. Psychedelics don't "belong" to turquoise. They are tools that exist that catalyze the opening of the mind and changing of perspective. Both of which usually trend someone up the spiral but if the experience goes wrong it can send them back down temporarily or they might not move at all. Sam Harris has much green in him. His political attitudes are green, he supports legalization of drugs, he encourages and has done vegetarianism/veganism etc. etc. Does this make him purely green? No. Once again with the limited thinking; Yes Sam Harris is fighting against Green, because Stages are broad and expansive and include a LOT of people. It includes the radical SJW feminists bloggers and it includes your local volunteer tree planters that aren't even aware of their agenda. Where do you think he is coming from when he's criticizing and fighting those kinds of Green people anyways? It's the attachment in stage Orange in him that is focusing too much on the minutia and content of what they are saying and ignoring the more important large scale change in structure that they are trying to make (whether they are aware of it or not). The illogical and hasty progressivism is just a means to an end because they aren't fully developed Green. You're being resistant, because it appears you've already had your mind made up when you made this thread. You're attached and idolizing Sam and his teachings instead of being an honest observer. Reality and people are complex. People don't just suddenly hop from one generalized stereotype to the next as they move up the spiral LOL. You don't go from a Mafia boss, to a Christian family man, to a greedy Oil Tycoon, to a Pot Smoking Hippy, to a UN ambassador, to a modern Jesus. Everything is mixed and muddy.

I love Sam Harris! I started my whole intellectual/philosophical journey with him back in 2013 while also listening to people like Terence McKenna! For that point in my life where I was probably a mix of 65% Orange 35% Green he resonated huge with me. He gave me a strong scientific/rational/logical basis to ground myself in but also taught some more advanced concepts like challenging Free Will as an illusion, introducing meditation, and taking on a more communal "green" attitude towards politics with less affinity for materialism in our culture (economic not meta-physical). I think Sam is a fantastic bridging point to get stage Orange people to really start considering expanding to the next level. However it's also apparent he's just soooo damn good at debating and being a champion of reason I think people burrow themselves in that because it's so comfortable for the mind. You have to realize that Sam's survival is grounded in maintaining his worldview for the time being. He is a public speaker allied with many other academics and scientists, he is an arbiter for rationality, he is a damn neuroscientist on top of it lol! It's simply not in his interest for his public persona or income to branch away from that too much. I bet if Sam took a few years off to get away from trying to always fight our toxic culture and politics, take his meditation to the next level, and have some more psychedelic experiences he would come back almost fully Yellow and be in a position to really raise a lot more people with him. Yes Sam has a decent amount of Yellow right now but it's more like 45% Orange 30% Green 25% Yellow. That's just probably the truth about it. I stopped consuming content from him about 2 years ago, though I check back now and then to ground myself a bit and because I like him.

A strategy that I think is much easier is instead of trying to tackle and break the hard ice of modern pick-up, focus on swimming with the water under it and work on personal development in all the areas except the pick-up. Don't fall into the trap of thinking you have to be perfect in all these things before you even start looking for a woman. Just make steady and stable improvement in them you'll naturally attract better and better women more frequently simply as a by-product. You'll also cut the quantity of work you have to do by doing pick-up by a magnitude of 10x, and you'll avoid a LOT of painful rejections. - Work on doing well at your job and/or discover your life purpose. Enjoying and being passionate about what you do is huge for a lot of other things. It will give you the basic happiness and fulfillment you need during the day (because you have to be doing something during the day anyways!) and it'll give you the resources (money) to pursue all the other stuff. Leo is big and on this and the Life Purpose Course he made is pretty damn good and affordable (like $200 US now?). - Fix, improve, optimize your health. Clean up your damn diet so you don't feel like shit and have bad thoughts about yourself (mind&body connection)! Come up with a gym routine, play pick-up games with friends, join a league for a sport you like, WHATEVER you gotta do to exercise just fucking do it lol. You'll start to feel way better in your body and after a while you'll find you won't be judging yourself (mind&body connection) for being "ugly" or out of shape. You'll gain natural confidence as a by product of feeling strong. - Invest time into genuine hobbies and interests you have. Not only is it fun, but you'll be interesting and have something to talk about with girls. It's attractive as hell hearing someone who is contagious with their passion for something, it's unattractive to be boring and not have anything to talk about passionately and just be like "meh" about everything. - Volunteer or get involved with your local community in some capacity. It feels really good and can be really beneficial for developing social skills outside the pressure of work or dating where you're in the context of something being expected of you. Once again something to build confidence and happiness. There is lots of other stuff but that will keep you busy. Pick-up can be really toxic and give you a warped view of women if you're coming from a place of desperation. I ONLY recommend it if you are completely socially inept with initial attraction and need to learn basic skills, then it's quite useful. Anyways the reason I suggested you work on that other stuff instead of pick-up and relationship advice is because it's more important. If you're struggling in all the other areas it won't matter even if you get a girlfriend because chances are you likely won't keep her, unless she's doing as bad as you are (easy/whores like you mentioned) in which case it's just going to be a disaster of a relationship and it will keep you from growing. Not to mention the obvious; There are way more important things in life than getting your dick wet, it's just for a lot of guys to see that because they are so thirsty it's like they are dehydrated in the desert they become delusional and lose sight of what's important. The only solution they think is to get stuck in that immature cycle of selfish behavior for years to make up for having to wait. Don't be like those guys. Anyways I'll finish by warning you don't put all your eggs in one basket of trying to solve this problem by only focusing on getting good with girls and doing pick-up. Whether you realize it or not you'll be approaching it from a place of need and desperation and generally women are pretty intuitive and will be able to recognize that and this will turn them off. Addressing your concerns in short; 1. Improve yourself broadly. You'll get rejected less and have higher self esteem so rejections stop hurting. 2. Come from a place of abundance. Relationships and sex are not the most important thing to you. Believe that and you'll become less creepy/aggressive. 3. Accept the reality of your past and current. It may not appear so but consider you might actually subconsciously like moping about it. Whatever the case acceptance is key, then you can move onto healing. 4. Take responsibility for your health and grooming. All that matters is how attractive YOU think you are. Embrace your ego here until you transcend it and don't need it. Some girl thinks you're a 6? "Bitch please, I'm an 8 at least. And I know it because I'm ripped and healthy." 5. Women are counter-intuitive and illogical. This isn't a bad thing. Accept this and embrace your feminine side and you'll grow to appreciate this. Your frustration comes from neurotically trying to interpret women through a male worldview. Deliberately step outside of yourself and into their shoes. You'll shed toxic ideas and become better at healthy relationships. I hope this helps - Roy

Science is built upon certain assumptions and beliefs about reality, which is attached to and defended by people being taught or experiencing facts/mathematics/experiments. Religion is built upon certain assumptions and beliefs about reality, which is attached to and defended by people being taught or experiencing religious history/dogma/traditions. Actualized.Org or any other alternative is built upon assumptions and beliefs about reality, which is attached to and defended by people being taught or experiencing first person phenomena/contemplation/reflection. If one is to self-actualize, improve them-self, or go about their life trying to understand the world in any capacity, it's always just an attempt. Nobody can ever truly claim they've got the "holy grail", because if they are ACTUALLY honest with themselves and doing true questioning and reflection of their themselves, their beliefs, and their worldviews they'll find that everything is groundless. People are going to sit on the thing that they like most or makes the most sense to their ego, until they are shown otherwise and move to the next best thing from wherever they're at. Is it a fair statement to say that even those who are enlightened, involved in these kind of communities, and even Leo himself aren't completely in touch with that? Otherwise why spend any energy, time, or resources in ones life criticizing, defending, or espousing if it's hypocrisy? After all, everyone is just trying to make an attempt at understanding reality to the best of their capacity are they not? The religious criticize the uncivilized, The scientists criticize the religious, the post-rationalists and spiritual criticize the scientists, then so on and and so on. My point is isn't the real work to be positionless? Instead of resting in the sea of life with ones arms attached to a buoy, shouldn't one be perpetually swimming and treading water for infinity to really be growing? Is resting in any capacity a failure by spiritual introspective standards? Is the only true indicator of a teachings or ideologies "truth" and validity the amount of hostility it projects outwards into the world? Because as people move up the spiral they obviously get less violent and less needy to convert others. I'm just curious how people feel about this. I by no means am enlightened or anything, just another trying to make sense of things.

@Leo Gura I've finished rewatching, "What is Actuality". I still remember what you've said in it since I watched it a year ago, and I've noticed I've changed my orientation more towards first person experience vs concepts and ideas. So progress! Though I think I've pinpointed the answer to what has been nagging me at me, but I'd like your input if you don't mind; The distinction between science, religion, and other modes of thought compared to the ones discussed here is that although they also use first person experience as well, they ascribe far too many qualities, context, and labels during and after the experience. So much so that they have gone through and ignored the actuality. Building unnecessary and dysfunctional paradigms in the process. It's like scoring a soccer ball on goalposts with no net, they already scored and they just keep on dribbling the ball having not realized it! The conscious decontextualization of experience is key.

Yes marijuana can be extremely addictive. It's amusing how quickly heavy users who are usually so "chill" will scramble out of the woodwork to cram "science" and endless arguments in your face to try and prove otherwise. It's just the ego trying to justify the habit. Obviously, pot in comparison is one of the safest recreational drugs that exists, but this is just a deflection from the reality of what it does to people. Far too often I see people convincing themselves they aren't addicted and they get really defensive when it's brought up. Yet they do it very frequently, the definition of a habit or addiction. They rationalize the addiction in their mind by saying it helps them be "spiritual", it elevates their ability, and it makes them less stressed and more calm. All that may be completely true and I won't fight that (I felt the same I used to smoke weed a lot as well), but what they need to become conscious of is that it is completely possible to attain those states regularly without depending on a substance. In most cases it is just people being lazy and using these positive states they experience as once again an excuse to justify not being able to stop. Despite what people will say it is a low tier substance like nicotine and alcohol. It clouds the mind and distracts from the necessity of sober life needed for spiritual work. Once you get transcend the immaturity of stage orange and green attitudes towards marijuana you will see this too. Before anyone backlashes to what I'm saying I'll point out I'm a young person who grew up smoking a lot of weed. I am fully for the legalization and decriminalization of all drugs, despise the war on drugs and the corrupt prison systems, and support social programs and rehabilitation centers.

The past few years I've done deliberate solo adventures/exploration of the world locally, I have a 14 foot 1 person Kayak meant for long distances. I mostly do day trips because I've rarely had more than 1 day off in a row with my last job, but want to integrate more overnight trips in the future once I've moved to Vancouver island so I can sleep removed and undistracted from society and therefore have a chance to integrate any insights I have overnight without waking up in the regular buzzing human world. I've never purposely done any practices or meditation during these trips because I simply find the act of doing the trips themselves is a spiritual and meditative process. I am in nature, where everything is raw, brutal, real, and unfiltered and I am completely dependent on myself for my survival. Every action I do is piercingly intentional. It let's me think the most clearly I can in life because I am connected to the simplicity of being an animal. If I want to get somewhere like across a body of water, or up to the top of a cliff I need to use myself, my body, my desire to get there. There is a tremendous satisfaction in this process for me and it's extremely peaceful. I prefer to do roughly half existing routes with half unmapped stuff but this can be quite dangerous if you don't have basic survival and navigation skills. It takes a thoughtful mix of preparation and spontaneity to come up with an adventure so it doesn't feel like a chore or unsatisfying. These feelings can be amplified when you're in solitude so you need to consider that before doing any solo trip. I am quite confident and comfortable with being completely alone for long periods of time and when I tell people about some of the trips I've done their jaw drops or they can get quite judgmental. Be prepared to face a lot of internal and external resistance, and remind yourself to look forward to the satisfaction!

Vision. Create it by imagining a future state or situation that you desire, and that matches your authentic values and attitudes about life. Maintain it by imposing consistent, powerful, and motivational reminders of your vision - Every day. The human mind is limited, and therefore forgetful. You need to constantly pound the message in over and over.

That is the harsh reality you must accept if you're seeking a long term partner that is as developed as you. If you're in a heavily stage orange society as a mostly stage green person, statistically it's just going to be more difficult for you to find people that resonate with you. That said you don't need to exclusively date only people at the same point in life as you, it's entirely possible to have an awesome long term relationship with someone who isn't like you at all, and you end up balancing each other out and contributing radically different things to the relationship. If you are after that person that is most compatible though. You basically need to act, position yourself, and participate in the world in a way that is most authentic to your values and attitudes. As a stage green guy you going to have a hard time finding that stage green girl by hanging out at a mall or a bar hitting on people lol. Your chances will go way up if perhaps, you're at a volunteer tree planting event, or at a concert like Burning Man. It might take a long time for you to find that suitable partner, but that's the cost you pay for having standards. I've never had any problems with attracting women, but I was single from 19-24 because as I discovered myself I learned that I didn't want to waste time with people that weren't a long term match for how developed I was. The pay off from that is now being in an extremely healthy and joyous relationship with whom I'm quite certain is my soulmate! Learn yourself deeply, and then everything else will fall into place with time.

That's very helpful @Serotoninluv thanks.

@Leo Gura I agree, and I'm genuinely pursuing becoming more of the territory. It's just where I'm currently at one of the concerns I have is how does one discern the territory they discover isn't truly any different from the maps of religion, science, or belief? Is radical open-mindedness discarded temporarily so the Absolute can be embraced?

You see, that judgement right there is what I'm getting at. The act of participating in the game of making distinctions and pointing out differences in the "content" (between science/religion/new-age) is the failure of open-mindedness and perspective, because regardless of what content people attribute to themselves we're all coming from the same starting point or "structure" of making an attempt at understanding reality. Make no mistake, it is always an attempt, because you'll always discard something to move onto the next most convenient or relevant thing. I'm not arguing that the higher up in the spiral or development one reaches there aren't more favorable qualities like consciousness, awareness, reflection, non-violence compared to the lower end. I'm just pointing out I think this is center of why there seems to be a lack of authentic humility even among the most advanced of us. This lack of humility can be a subtle thorn that stunts the development of those considered lower on the spiral.

They are scared of the unknown. They can't think of a reasonable explanation on their own. Or refuse to accept one presented to them. They latch onto something quickly that fills that gap, regardless of the intellectual consequences. It feels good, that's all that matters.

Just for the sake of conversation, why would you say that? It appears to me that pretty much everyone in the world that has their basic survival taken care of and has the luxury of pursuing these abstract goals, especially like those in this community and Leo himself talk about obtaining these insights and experiences as if they are holy grails. For example I understand "nothing" conceptually (I think :P), but having not gone through a transcendent enlightenment experience of realizing nothing I am still in a state of pursuing that particular holy grail/insight. Even the process of transcending and realizing "nothing" is a holy grail right? (a thing that is being earnestly pursued or sought after.) I apologize for being so antagonistic, I've just had a hard time grasping and embodying non-duality. I'll need to get back and watch Leo's series on it and read some books. I have a feeling the conclusion of this line of thinking is like the 10th Ox herding picture of Zen? Once you reach all those states and transcend you return to the marketplace and come full circle?

Isn't that untrue? To be truly positionless is the absence of all qualities of any position. I'm going to challenge myself and guess that I'm going to have to concede I'll always have some beliefs and let go of my attachment to radical openmindedness?

@Forrest Adkins Don't get caught in the low consciousness trap of male vs female. We live in a dynamic world where there are so moving parts and differences, that you can spend eternity arguing about the advantages and disadvantages of each gender. Don't join the pigs wrestling in the mud, walk past the pen.

Sorry about your situation, but I'm glad you have the mindset to take responsibility. That's the massive first step so congrats! Now let's look at what you can do to change it; - SAVE HARDCORE This is your main priority. Having a good job is awesome, keep that job and take advantage of every little benefit and bonus you can get out of it. Really pay attention to exactly how you spend your money. Once every 2 weeks when you get paid, review your spending habits so you know what to cut out. It only takes 10-15 minutes to look at it and contemplate what you don't need. I tell you from personal experience, you won't realize how much money you're wasting on stupid shit until you see it in raw numbers. This is a free and legit website that will track everything once you plug your accounts in, really simple to set up and use https://www.mint.com/ Once you start to save a few thousand dollars, you'll feel empowered and less stressed having that safety net, and you'll be able to create some freedom for yourself in the future without being limited by money. - Make it a daily goal to grab a tea or coffee, sit down, and browse for 20-30 minutes for reasonable places to rent and room with people. Just getting out of that house is going to raise your baseline happiness and kill a LOT of stress. It might take a lot of searching to find a good place but it will be worth all that time looking. - Evaluate your debt and come up with a plan. Go to https://old.reddit.com/r/personalfinance/ and post exactly what your situation is anonymously, people are really helpful there. How much exactly do you have to pay? How long do you have to pay it off? Is it worth it to save money now to get your own place and just do minimum payments for a while? Learn about your debt and ask these questions. The sooner you get on this the more your future self will thank you! Acting on it will get rid of your negative thoughts about your debt. - Don't move back with your mom. That just sounds unwise financially and stressful as hell. - If your spare time is being spent around her and her toxic family, consider taking on a part-time job or volunteering on your days off for some hours here and there. You'll make extra money, feel fulfilled, and probably most importantly you're away from them! It might take 3-6 months until you make some real bank and find a good place, but it will be worth the effort. So make the best of your current situation and take advantage of everything you can. You deserve the best - Roy

I empathize (the best I can) with people living in poorer or more dangerous countries. I am trying to imagine how much of a struggle it might be to pursue these kinds of things with so many resistance forces acting against you. However I would just like to say don't let the resentment of the way your society or culture is force you into feeling like you have to "escape". It is entirely possible for you to live an amazing fulfilled life where you are at (it just might take extra work but that's worth it isn't it?). Who knows, perhaps you'll serve as an inspirational beacon for those similar to you where you live!

I'm 27 now. Back when I was 18 I did salvia and smoked a lot of weed which was fun and interesting, but at the time I didn't go any deeper into the true psychedelics even though I was very curious (reading/watching videos for years) because I thought I wasn't mentally ready and it scared me. I told myself "experience more of life and get some other stuff figured out, then you'll be ready." Well fast forward from 2011 to 2020 and I STILL feel I'm not ready. I'm much more developed; I have a strong financial situation for my age, an awesome partner which I grow with and love, I'm starting to piece together my life purpose, etc. I am at the place I thought I needed to be back then. However around late 2014/early 2015 I had severe depression and suicidal thoughts (never attempted or made a formal plan), and I've had Pure OCD harm based thoughts about once a year since that time but I've gotten help and done a huge amount of personal development since then (started with Actualized.org actually). I feel I've conquered the majority of my depression and whenever the bad thoughts come up I am detached and don't let them affect me. I realize they are just thoughts. (It was attitude/belief based depression, I never took any medication I got support from a counselor/life coach). This however puts a damper on my desire to formally try any psychedelics because the fear just washes out out any fire of motivation of hype I get to want to experience these things. I keep telling myself I need to be perfect and have perfect mental health if I want to attempt even a small dose. I need some more opinions. Has anyone ever been in a similar situation? What did you do? Wait 5 more years? Jump in and start with small doses? If you need more history on my mental health or anything I'm willing to share. I am just worried that I'll "break" my mind or something or it'll trigger my depression to come back even worse than before. DISCLAIMER: My intention is to do them to help guide me in my self-actualization work and so I can learn things about myself and the universe out of genuine curiosity and desire for growth. I have a mature view of them and want to take it in a prepared, safe setting. I don't do alcohol, party, smoke cigs, or do weed or any other substances since 2011.

Sorry to break it to ya, but it's going to be extremely painful to her. No matter how well you craft your break-up speech........ Considering you came on a forum and made a post asking for advice though, it's likely you have some deeper reservations than you realize about breaking up with her. So I'd consider contemplating some more if you really want to cut it off. Ask yourself and her some questions like; - Are you really happy together? Or is it just a relationship of convenience? - Do you futures align? Can your goals take you both to the same places in the future (3-5-10 years?) without each person changing or bending too much? - What kind of challenges do you guys have? Have you solved them successfully in the past? Do they keep arising because of pettiness or lack of communication? Of course there is the situation of her in a sense "needing" you because you are the only one she has around. Think honestly about how this effects your decision and do not let your ego take advantage of this. Give her an opportunity to think about this as well, it's really important she becomes aware of this no matter how painful. However make sure to bring this up lightly and warn her so there isn't as much defensiveness.

@wk197 My sarcastic response was in reaction to what you asked before you added the words healthy and intimate to relationships and sex. Which changes the context quite a bit. I'll answer your question anyways though! First off; I'd teach that average guy that Redpill "knowledge" is not a complete and holistic perspective. I won't deny it has some true realizations and scientific points on the reality of modern dating and relationship dynamics like unfair legal system towards divorce, one sided dating app statistics, etc. Once you're out of it however and you start incorporating other perspectives and looking other sides of the coin, you'll see that it's roots stem from a biased male worldview and a lot of the motivations are harbored in resentment and selfishness. I studied these movements and communities pretty hard-core just out of personal interest. I had a period of struggle and was single for a looooong time and let me tell you I was almost sucked into it. All the points and examples they bring up can be very inciting to a scientific/materialist/logical minded person (which most men are). And hit all the right triggers in your mind that get you riled and fired up that you're a victim and you have something owed to you! At the end of the day though (you will eventually come to this in your life too) the reality is Redpill, Pick-Up, MGTOW, Incel etc. can all distill down to common qualities of juvenile intent, toxic attitudes (All Women Are Like That, Beta Male, etc), sexual deviancy, jealousy, resentment, hate, victim complex, male centered bias, and selfishness. All of which are low consciousness behaviors. Basically it comes down to the fact they want their cake and to eat it too. I also hate to have to even mention this because it's petty, but it's laughably sad that big names in those communities like RSD Tyler (Owen Cook) and Entrepreneurs In Cars (Richard Cooper) are both divorced single dads and one of them has even straight up bragged about raping someone. Are these the kinds of people that should be considered respectable and trustworthy sources of relationship advice? I'll let your internal compass calibrate that on it's own...... You are right about personal development and improvement. They can be found in those groups, but let me ask you something; If a diamond is buried in a field of shit and mud, is it really worth digging through? You'll find that those diamonds can be found plenty elsewhere, and you don't need to get covered in shit to get them. Anyways let's talk about some other things in life that are more worthwhile than personal relationships and sex; Community - Volunteering, contributing, and participating in a community, group, or society can be a tremendous source of lasting pleasure, happiness, fulfillment, and accomplishment. Life Purpose - Finding out and working towards what you're here on Earth for. Spirituality - Getting connected to your true self. Through whatever means, psychedelics, adventure, connection etc. Family - Raising children and caring/enjoying your family. I consider this the positive side of the relationship/sex coin. Those are just a few I could probably do more but it's probably more important you discover them yourself. There are a lot more enjoyable and important things in life than being good with women and getting your dick wet. Once you learn to groom yourself decently well, stabilize your financial situation, and cultivate competent social skills, you'll find it's actually quite easy to get into relationships and fuck essentially whoever you want. The best things in life don't come from easy.

@Anna1 When blatant misogyny, hate, and bias rear their heads by all means, speak out! Of course you are going to meet the most egregious offenders with more aggression and resistance, as you should. Act more like an detached observer so you can learn and view those movements and their participants with more compassion and understanding. Most of the men (which don't actually end up raping or assaulting someone) are just confused, desperate, scared, and stuck in those ideologies because they are simply lost or coming from a place of need They didn't have any women (or strong ethical men) teach them how to value and respect the other gender properly. Or commonly they had some bad experience that caused them to recoil into those communities for safety or to get some kind of revenge identity/complex. My point is act be careful not to apply that aggression and resistance too broadly, or you risk causing those people to double down on where they are and thus potentially stifling their growth for years longer than needed. Accept that their predicament could not entirely be their fault. A bit of personal information here for an example; My partner is a feminist and worked as a consent educator and support worker for abused women and children (domestic and sexual) for nearly half a decade. In her experience working with women and hearing first hand stories of them going through unimaginable and nightmarish circumstances, she learned something very counter-intuitive (a concept Leo has talked about) --- Given enough time, distance and healing from those events it's common for a lot those women that they will eventually shed their disgust and hatred for their abusers, and seek understanding and offer forgiveness to them. Why did you do this to me? What wounds did you have that made you put that pain back out in the world onto me? How can we help you heal and teach young men not to develop those kind of behaviors. The hate won't last and will only ever protect you short term. The answer is love. Tap into that love, compassion, and understanding so you cut the learning curve for those young men. I hope that illuminates my position somewhat.