Once again, NATO and US foreign policy have lost a war - this time Ukraine

[Karmadhi]

48 minutes ago, Devin said:

I don't hear about masses of Ukrainian soldiers defecting to Russia, they want to defend their territory why are you so opposed to that?

Because there are tens of thousands of Ukranians (close to 40.000 I think) fleeing the country and many others being drafted by force.

Many do not want to die in a trench for nationalistic pride on an unwinnable war.

They are literally dying for no reason, it is foolish and sad.

If Ukraine had a good chance to win the war, I do not think many would oppose it.

Also, you need to ask yourself how many of them are there by free will compared to either being brainwashed or drafted by force?

Edited December 16, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Devin]

24 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Because there are tens of thousands of Ukranians (close to 40.000 I think) fleeing the country and many others being drafted by force.

Many do not want to die in a trench for nationalistic pride on an unwinnable war.

They are literally dying for no reason, it is foolish and sad.

If Ukraine had a good chance to win the war, I do not think many would oppose it.

Also, you need to ask yourself how many of them are there by free will compared to either being brainwashed or drafted by force?

40,000 from a population of 45 million, with 300,000 foreigners there.

I don't think you know anything about war either, did you also support Afghanistan conceding to the U.S., because Ukraine has a much better chance against Russia and the Afghans won.

If they're not fighting by free will for Ukraine they sure won't be as conscripted Russian soldiers fighting Japan either. Putin wants all of Ukraine.

This is like telling a woman being groped at a bar to just allow a little touchy touchy.

Should Canada concede to the U.S. when Trump get's back in? Should the U.S. concede to a Russia, China, Turkey, Iran, North Korea alliance? Australia or New Zealand to China? Japan to China? South Korea to China? Africa to China? Pakistan to India?

Edited December 16, 2023 by Devin

[Karmadhi]

11 minutes ago, Devin said:

did you also support Afghanistan conceding to the U.S

I never supported fighting unwinnable wars just because of nationalistic pride. It may sound romantic and often it is glorified in media but when you are in a trench getting blown apart by artillery you will realize how foolish it is. 

11 minutes ago, Devin said:

Putin wants all of Ukraine.

Right now he has 20% or so of Ukraine with many pro Russian areas.

I dont think there was any proof that Putin wanted all of Ukraine. His original goal was just to change the pro NATO government into a pro Russian one and also to annex the pro Russian areas (Donesk and Donbas).

If the war continues he might get up to half of the country. How does that serve Ukraine? Russians being kicked out of Ukraine at this point is a pure fantasy. They tried in summer and failed. Now they have less people and all their aid is being cut. How will they do, what they could not do with all the support? Use common sense.

I am all up for fighting winnable wars but Ukraine fighting now is just making things worse for them. Better loose 20% than 50% of your territory.

It is similar to when Germany kept fighting after 1944 instead of making peace. It costed them so much.

Edited December 16, 2023 by Karmadhi

[BlueOak]

15 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Many do not want to die in a trench for nationalistic pride on an unwinnable war.

They are literally dying for no reason, it is foolish and sad.

I get people don't like war, I get that people see war and want to do anything to avoid it. In the beginning I am like that also, I think any rational or caring person who understands the amount of suffering and cyclic violence war generates wants to avoid it.

What is the alternative? At the moment this is where both sides (and the world) is, a statemate. It'll be a stalemate forever unless Ukraine join NATO or Russia changes its expansionist policy, or BRICS/NATO members get more directly involved (so far great effort has been made to stop that last thing from happening by many world powers) You might not like it, but this is the reality reflected exactly as it is.

As for there being no reason, do I need to copy-paste the 50 reasons i've already given and then bullet-point them?  I could do another 50 specifically dealing with what the effects of Russia's fascist rule would be on the democratic population, and all the misery and suffering that would be generated, or I could just point you are the ongoing war as the demonstration, and every reason it happened domestically. 

[Karmadhi]

@BlueOak The solution is to be Russia's bitch and keep a pro Russian government that does not go against their rule. It may sound unfair but that is how the world works. Geography is often a curse. Many countries have to be USA's or China's bitch for similar reason or they will get invaded, it is what it is. Ukraine is not alone here.

Russia would never have invaded Ukraine if they did not go openly against Russia and towards the West. 

Ukraine can keep their internal policies the way they like, but the external policy must not go against Russia. Many countries tend to be like this, it is nothing new. 

Edited December 16, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Devin]

4 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

@BlueOak The solution is to be Russia's bitch and keep a pro Russian government that does not go against their rule. It may sound unfair but that is how the world works. Geography is often a curse. Many countries have to be USA's or China's bitch for similar reason or they will get invaded, it is what it is. Ukraine is not alone here.

Russia would never have invaded Ukraine if they did not go openly against Russia and towards the West. 

So you support the United States taking over Ukraine?

[Karmadhi]

6 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

the democratic population

The areas of Donbas and Donetsk were not represented in the Ukranian parliament. Russian, the language that is spoken by over half of these territories that Russia has under control right now, was not an official language like Ukrainan was. Far more people speak Russian in Ukraine than people speak Italian in Switzerland yet still Italian is an official language of Switzerland. For these territories, you can not really call Ukraine a democracy.

[Karmadhi]

5 minutes ago, Devin said:

So you support the United States taking over Ukraine?

I do not support what Russia did.

It is obviously wrong, I am just explaining how the world WORKS.

USA did similar things to Middle Eastern countries so I am not suprised at what Russia is doing.

You need to be realistic and pragmatic in life.

If a country would risk an USA invasion unless they did X thing USA wanted, then yes I would tell that country to obey the USA. Not because it is right but because survival takes priority over nationalistic pride.

Also for the last time, you need to take the odds into account. If Ukraine had a good realistic chance of beating Russia, I would be all up for more fighting. I fully support for example USSR fighting back the Nazis, but I do not support Germany not making a peace deal after the Normandy landings in June 1944 where it became clear, they had lost the war.

I also support Netherlands surrendering to the Germans in 1940 after the Rotterdam firebombing where they were threatend with Utrecht being destroyed next. It saved Netherlands countless lives when they had absolutely no chance to defeating the Nazis. 

See my point?

Edited December 16, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Devin]

1 minute ago, Karmadhi said:

I do not support what Russia did.

It is obviously wrong, I am just explaining how the world WORKS.

USA did similar things to Middle Eastern countries so I am not suprised at what Russia is doing.

You need to be realistic and pragmatic in life.

If a country would risk an USA invasion unless they did X thing USA wanted, then yes I would tell that country to obey the USA. Not because it is right but because survival takes priority over nationalistic pride.

Well the U.S. wants Ukraine to not concede to Russia, so you support Ukraine being admitted as the Alaska of Europe as the 51st state of America?

[BlueOak]

25 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

I never supported fighting unwinnable wars just because of nationalistic pride.

Right now he has 20% or so of Ukraine with many pro Russian areas.

I dont think there was any proof that Putin wanted all of Ukraine. His original goal was just to change the pro NATO government into a pro Russian one and also to annex the pro Russian areas (Donesk and Donbas).

If the war continues he might get up to half of the country. How does that serve Ukraine? Russians being kicked out of Ukraine at this point is a pure fantasy. They tried in summer and failed. Now they have less people and all their aid is being cut. How will they do, what they could not do with all the support? Use common sense.

I am all up for fighting winnable wars but Ukraine fighting now is just making things worse for them. Better loose 20% than 50% of your territory.

It is similar to when Germany kept fighting after 1944 instead of making peace. It costed them so much.

Putin repeatedly said Ukraine is not a real country, he considers it part of Russia. This is the 8th war to retake USSR land, they were flying USSR flags on many of the tanks and APCs. He invaded the north, east and south of the country. Belarus stupidly showed a map invading Moldova, there is an exact breakaway state there also, same setup as here. Russia started, funded, and equipped militias to start this war up after the democratic coup. In the Baltics, there is a Russian population there also, there is good evidence that Russia and its proxies are flooding Europe with Migrants to destabilize the border countries, which would create this exact scenario again to invade. State TV in Russia repeatedly spreads the propaganda of invading the West and reforming the USSR. He has said he wants less border problems, and to do that he will need to shorten the borders, which means pushing further into Europe. Russia has a big population problem, both in staffing those borders with soldiers, but also just generally, and taking 40 million people would surely help fix it.

Putin wants to control Ukraine, like all the old USSR countries. He was raised in the KGB, and considers the loss of former territories one of the greatest losses Russia has ever suffered. The real proof though is the war itself, every major settlement was under attack except those in the very far west, and the removal of Ukrainians to replace/mix them with Russians.

21 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

@BlueOak The solution is to be Russia's bitch and keep a pro Russian government that does not go against their rule. It may sound unfair but that is how the world works. Geography is often a curse. Many countries have to be USA's or China's bitch for similar reason, it is what it is. Ukraine is not alone here.

Russia would never have invaded Ukraine if they did not go openly against Russia and towards the West. 

Yes people impose their values on others. The only thing that stops them is another world power. That's what almost every war in history has been about.

The people in Ukraine have a stronger national identity than ever before. War does that. So if that was the honest goal, it was the stupidest way to achieve it.

Ukraine rejected that solution when people were gunned down in the streets, for minor protests which the dumb proxy government escalated, an act that led to the coup. Ukraine was not exactly like Russia even then, and that is something Putin can't tolerate as he personally sees something different as a challenge. Russia has shifted very far to the right of the political spectrum, and tried to impose that form of governance on a population that hasn't. - This would never have happened if Russia was capable of multi-polarity governance, or even if it wasn't so hell-bent on imposing hyper-authoritarian values across its population. That usually creates rebellion, because only so many people can live in that world, the others are the enemy, and an enemy becomes a necessity for it to survive. 

There are always outside pressures on countries, but that only matters if the country's stability is poor to begin with. Corrupt in this case, overrun with Russian officials who saw Ukraine as second-class citizens subservient to Russia (which Russia does to every ethnic minority). Even then both cultures got on, lived side by side, until they were pushed too far by physical violence. Which created fear, which created anger, and then a coup. 

Edited December 16, 2023 by BlueOak

[Karmadhi]

4 minutes ago, Devin said:

Well the U.S. wants Ukraine to not concede to Russia, so you support Ukraine being admitted as the Alaska of Europe as the 51st state of America?

I do not see 25% of Ukranian population being American? I do not see USA at Ukraine's border. I do not see Russia threating to put Nuclear Missles at Canada or Mexico either. Funny that when USSR did try to put Nuclear Missles in Cuba, USA invaded Cuba to overthrow the communist regime of Castro (which the Cubans openly supported)  to stop USSR missles from being put there (Bay of Pigs invasion). 

So lets not act like this stuff does not happen.

It is wrong though, no doubts on that.

[Devin]

1 minute ago, Karmadhi said:

I do not see 25% of Ukranian population being American? I do not see USA at Ukraine's border. I do not see Russia threating to put Nuclear Missles at Canada or Mexico either. Funny that when USSR did try to put Nuclear Missles in Cuba, USA invaded Cuba to overthrow the communist regime of Castro (which the Cubans openly supported)  to stop USSR missles from being put there (Bay of Pigs invasion). 

So lets not act like this stuff does not happen.

It is wrong though, no doubts on that.

Why are you deflecting?

Alaska did not border the u.s. nor was it populated by Americans.

[Karmadhi]

Just now, Devin said:

Alaska did not border the u.s. nor was it populated by Americans

It was done during colonialism and it was wrong at the time.

You cannot compare Alaska=USA with Russia=Ukraine. 

[Karmadhi]

8 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

es people impose their values on others. The only thing that stops them is another world power. That's what almost every war in history has been about.

The people in Ukraine have a stronger national identity than ever before. War does that. So if that was the honest goal, it was the stupidest way to achieve it.

Ukraine rejected that solution when people were gunned down in the streets, for minor protests which the dumb proxy government escalated, an act that led to the coup. Ukraine was not exactly like Russia even then, and that is something Putin can't tolerate as he personally sees something different a challenge. Russia has shifted very far to the right of the political spectrum and tried to impose that form of governance on a population that hasn't. - This would never have happened if Russia was capable of multi-polarity governance, or even if it wasn't so hell-bent on imposing hyper-authoritarian values across its population. That usually creates rebellion, because only so many people can live in that world, the others are the enemy, and an enemy becomes a necessity for it to survive. 

There are always outside pressures on countries, but that only matters if the country's stability is poor to begin with. Corrupt in this case, overrun with Russian officials who saw Ukraine as second-class citizens subservient to Russia (which Russia does to every ethnic minority). Even then both cultures got on, lived side by side, until they were pushed too far by physical violence. Which created fear, which created anger, and then a coup. 

I fully agree if Russia's goal was to take ALL of Ukraine but if it is just the 20% that is quite pro Russian, then I do not know what to say.

Do not ignore that pre 2022 Ukraine was not much nicer to Russians living in eastern Ukraine. They were not represented in Ukrainian parliament nor was their language an official language in those areas. That is far from democratic. So calling Ukraine a democracy, at least for the areas that Russia is actually annexing is a bit of a stretch. The areas where Ukraine was indeed democratic (Western Ukraine) are currently not being occupied by Russia. And I would be so against that happening that I would support Ukraine fighting to the last man. Because those are the true anti Russian parts, and have been so since Stalin's time where they greeted the Nazis as liberators.

8 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

Putin repeatedly said Ukraine is not a real country, he considers it part of Russia. This is the 8th war to retake USSR land, they were flying USSR flags on many of the tanks and APCs. He invaded the north, east and west of the country. Belarus stupidly showed a map invading Moldova, there is an exact breakaway state there also, same setup as here. Russia started, funded, and equipped militias to start this war up after the democratic coup. In the Baltics, there is a Russian population there also, there is good evidence that Russia and its proxies are flooding Europe with Migrants to destabilize the border countries, which would create this exact scenario again to invade. State TV in Russia repeatedly spreads the propaganda of invading the West and reforming the USSR. He has said he wants less border problems, and to do that he will need to shorten the borders, which means pushing further into Europe. Russia has a big population problem, both in staffing those borders with soldiers, but also just generally, and taking 40 million people would surely help fix it.

Putin wants to control Ukraine, like all the old USSR countries. He was raised in the KGB, and considers the loss of former territories one of the greatest losses Russia has ever suffered. The real proof though is the war itself, every major settlement was under attack except those in the very far west, and the removal of Ukrainians to replace/mix them with Russians.

If this is indeed true, then I take back everything I said before.

Edited December 16, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Devin]

6 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

It was done during colonialism and it was wrong at the time.

You cannot compare Alaska=USA with Russia=Ukraine. 

What Russia is doing is Colonialism.

[BlueOak]

@Karmadhi
It is with the stipulation I meant south, east and north of the country.. Not west.

Other than that yes. If you want the 8 wars listed for example you can find them here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Russia

Then just look for the recent ones involving former USSR countries, where Russia has either taken land, created breakaway states, or fully controls the new proxy government. if you need any examples of anything or anyone does, its fairly easy to find, or I can pull something up.

This war, has hopefully if the final conclusion is the rest of Ukraine joins NATO, deadlocked the conflict forever. Because it was Russia's last real hope of pushing into Europe given their demographic problems and aging stockpile of equipment they had. If Ukraine don't join NATO or some larger regional alliance, there is a chance we do it all again. Not guaranteed because of the losses that Russia suffered, but their losses were softened enough by their BRICS allies to make another war plausible imho. Another problem of a multi-polar world is that regional conflicts are rarely settled outright.

Edited December 16, 2023 by BlueOak

[Devin]

The only thing in the way of a NATO Ukraine is Hungary, which will change with a weakened Russia or Hungary exiting the EU.

On 8 May 2022, János Volner, former member of the political party Jobbik, announced that his own political party, the Volner Party, would be renamed to Huxit Party and adopt a Hungarian withdrawal from the EU as its main objective.

Edited December 16, 2023 by Devin

[BlueOak]

18 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Do not ignore that pre 2022 Ukraine was not much nicer to Russians living in eastern Ukraine. They were not represented in Ukrainian parliament nor was their language an official language in those areas. That is far from democratic. So calling Ukraine a democracy, at least for the areas that Russia is actually annexing is a bit of a stretch. The areas where Ukraine was indeed democratic (Western Ukraine) are currently not being occupied by Russia. And I would be so against that happening that I would support Ukraine fighting to the last man. Because those are the true anti Russian parts, and have been so since Stalin's time where they greeted the Nazis as liberators.

 

I think you added this so i'll address it.

Ukrainians and Russians got on well, because their cultures were closer. Most Ukrainians spoke Russian because it was the former language of the USSR. I am sure there was friction, and a lot of it was caused by people wanting to stir up trouble, but the average person, everyone i've heard comment said we got on just fine.

Were Russians represented in Parliment. Again the cultures were not as distinct as you make out, from everything everyone has told me. Just because Ukrainians all spoke Russian. So much so the Russians themselves i've heard say they consider this a civil war. Can you be more specific as to an actual case you know about? Then I can do some readings and educate myself.

I think you using the Nazi - Liberators is extremely hyperbolic. What else could you be suggesting by name-dropping it. Than you implying Ukraine is Nazi aligned when Russia is hyper-nationalist. Do I quote now the many nationalist groups in Russia, the nazi group they have which exports far-right ideology overseas, then marches nationalists do in Russia? Or the very fact this entire war is inspired by trying to make Russia back into an imperialist great power. Azov, the former nazi's in Ukraine, were reformed before the war into a regular army unit, their leader left and got 2% of the democratic vote. I would wager this would be the same in any country. I can also guarantee war brings out nationalists, which is one reason why fascists require it.




 

Edited December 16, 2023 by BlueOak

[Karmadhi]

8 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

I think you using the Nazi - Liberators is extremely hyperbolic. What else could you be suggesting by name-dropping it. Than you implying Ukraine is Nazi aligned when Russia is hyper-nationalist. Do I quote now the many nationalist groups in Russia, the nazi group they have which exports far-right ideology overseas, then marches nationalists do in Russia? Or the very fact this entire war is inspired by trying to make Russia back into an imperialist great power. Azov, the former nazi's in Ukraine, were reformed before the war into a regular army unit, their leader left and got 2% of the democratic vote. I would wager this would be the same in any country. I can also guarantee war brings out nationalists, which is one reason why fascists require it.

No I did not call Ukranians Nazis, i think that is Russia propaganda to justify the invasion. I meant that the Western Ukranian hatred towards Russia, especially after Stalin starved intentionally millions of them in the 1930s was so great that they saw the Nazis as liberators and supported them in the beginning (before it became clear the Nazis saw ethnic Ukranians also as subhuman and began wiping them out). I honestly do not blame Ukranians in 1941 for supporting the Nazis considering the shit they had to endure under Stalin's dictatorship. It was just to showcase that Western Ukraine which is ethnic Ukranians have historically disliked Russia and I fully support them dying for their territory. However, considering that the CURRENT territory Russia has occupied is like 50% ethnic Ukrainian I am unsure whether they should die for it. Is it worth dying for Russians to live under Ukraine rather than Russia? Does that make sense? Perhaps those Russians want to be under Russia instead? Proof of that is the fact that Russia easily steamrolled those regions compared to the rest of Ukraine where it was deadlock stopped. What do you think?

Edited December 16, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

23 minutes ago, Devin said:

What Russia is doing is Colonialism.

You seem to confuse me with justifying the invasion. I do not.

I am just saying that fighting more will just cause you to loose more territories and get colonized more.

Now if you think Ukraine has a chance to kick out Russia from the Ukranian territories they currently occupy then ok, I do not think they can.

They tried and it failed.