The experiential hierarchy of reality

[Carl-Richard]

I realized there are many words for roughly the same "levels of complexity» with respect to how reality is conceptualized and experienced. This is me sharing some of those words with you. If you want an anchor: for level 3, think of humans; for level 2, think of animals; for level 1, think of rocks:

 

3. Thought, abstractions, meta-cognition, symbols, self-reflection, the conscious ego, internal re-representations, sapience, language, narrative, story, meta-consciousness.

2. Instinct, concrete experiences, cognition, perception, sensation, the unconscious ego, internal representations, sentience, emotion, behavior, wakefulness, dreaming, personal consciousness.

1. "The thing in itself", "Consciousness", phenomenal consciousness, qualia, objective reality, physical reality, subatomic particles, «the brain», egolessness, form, formlessness, emptiness, awareness, deep sleep, cessation, transpersonal consciousness.

 

Some might think "perception" is identical to "qualia" or "Consciousness".  To that I say that perception is a limited filtering of reality that arises as a result of evolutionary pressures, and it's intimately tied to your biological makeup. Meanwhile "Consciousness" is the unfiltered and raw reality that exists prior to your limited perception of it. For example, if you're looking at a rock and then close your eyes, even though you no longer see the rock, that doesn't mean the rock disappeared from reality. Other people can still see the same rock. The rock is still "experiential" despite you not perceiving it, and hence why this is placed together with things like "objective/physical reality" and "subatomic particles". Perception is a much more personalized phenomena, while Consciousness is a more transpersonal phenomena.

Some might think "why make 1 and 2 separate at all?". Well, to combine them would be to discard a huge chunk of brilliant insights from fields like depth psychology (e.g. Freud, Jung), Western philosophical idealism (e.g. Kant, Schopenhauer) and modern analytic philosophy and cognitive science. And of course, to tackle the thought-terminating cliché of solipsism: no, this is not me "disproving" solipsism. I've simply given you a list of words that I think most intellectual traditions think is a reasonable account of what reality is and what most humans feel is an intuitive account of how they experience reality.

Edited April 12, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Moksha]

Even within human experience, there are different frequencies of awareness. For example, the Hindu model is 3 tiers:

1) Tamas - torpidity, darkness, depression

2) Rajas - activity, energy, desire

3) Sattva - clarity, purity, love

The absolute is beyond all states, but interesting to see how it progresses in realizing itself.

 

[Buck Edwards]

This looks like made up. 

 

[Carl-Richard]

3 minutes ago, Enlightement said:

This looks like made up. 

It's made up, but you also probably agree with some of it. When you close your eyes, do you think the world ceases to exist? When you think about closing your eyes, is that the same as actually closing your eyes?

[Buck Edwards]

1 minute ago, Carl-Richard said:

It's made up, but you also probably agree with some of it. When you close your eyes, do you think the world ceases to exist? When you think about closing your eyes, is that the same as actually closing your eyes?

You talk about consciousness as though it's some kind of an experience. What if consciousness was a stream of infinite existence of which we are a part of and what if these perceptions are also a part of that same consciousness. 

[Carl-Richard]

Just now, Enlightement said:

You talk about consciousness as though it's some kind of an experience. What if consciousness was a stream of infinite existence of which we are a part of and what if these perceptions are also a part of that same consciousness. 

I'm saying Consciousness is like a rock.

[Buck Edwards]

Just now, Carl-Richard said:

I'm saying Consciousness is like a rock.

I'm saying Consciousness is like a stream. 

[Carl-Richard]

4 minutes ago, Enlightement said:

I'm saying Consciousness is like a stream. 

You're pointing at the interconnectedness of all the levels. And that is true: all the levels are technically rock. All biological life, animals and humans, stand on top of rock (literally and figuratively). From dust we came, to dust we shall return.

Edited April 11, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Moksha]

Just for fun...

Awareness is the stream and consciousness is the localized current within the stream. The banks and rocks are the cosmos.

[Breakingthewall]

To think that something exists outside of you is to enter into the illusion of the multiple. there is nothing outside of you if you want to understand what you are. "outside" is something impossible, meaningless. you are the absolute, if you are listening to a song, you have made up that song right now. if you see a landscape, you are creating it now. you are not an ego that relates to other egos. you are the absolute total existence. outside of you there is no existence. inside there is infinity. that is the truth and from there you can begin to understand.

 

[Carl-Richard]

3 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

To think that something exists outside of you is to enter into the illusion of the multiple.

We still need to explain the illusion.

[Breakingthewall]

Just now, Carl-Richard said:

We still need to explain the illusion.

Yes but the illusion is inside you. In the moment that you think "outside" you are lost, fragmented.

[Carl-Richard]

17 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Yes but the illusion is inside you. In the moment that you think "outside" you are lost, fragmented.

The illusion is exactly that this is not how it appears, and that to not engage with this fact is in some way to refuse to explain it. The illusion is that it appears that there is something outside of you. "It's all just oneness, infinite youness" is to dispel the illusion, not to explain its contents.

Edited April 11, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Breakingthewall]

53 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

The illusion is exactly that this is not how it appears, and that to not engage with this fact is in some way to refuse to explain it. The illusion is that it appears that there is something outside of you. "It's all just oneness, infinite youness" is to dispel the illusion, not to explain its contents.

Yeah, I'd say its correct. The world illusion is to point to something that is deceptive, different from what it seems. you cannot say that a stone is illusion because it really is a mental creation. it is still a stone. but the fact that it seems something foreign to you is an illusion

[Someone here]

@Breakingthewall solipsism ain't "it", my love. 

[Someone here]

4 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

For example, if you're looking at a rock and then close your eyes, even though you no longer see the rock, that doesn't mean the rock disappeared from reality. Other people can still see the same rock. The rock is still "experiential" despite you not perceiving it, 

Do you realize that it's impossible to prove or disprove this? Is that obvious to you? Or do you need more elaboration? 

[Carl-Richard]

52 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Do you realize that it's impossible to prove or disprove this? Is that obvious to you? Or do you need more elaboration? 

Blink your eyes fast, the rock remains in the same place among the blips of darkness. What does that tell you about perception?

Edited April 11, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Someone here]

2 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Open your eyes, the rock is still there. Blink your eyes fast, the rock remains in the same place among the blips of darkness. What does that tell you about perception?

It tells me exactly exactly that ...when you look at it ..it is there. When you look at half of it ..then half of it is being experienced by you .if you close your eyes completely and hold ..it disappears. Nothing more .Nothing less .

You said other people can see it ..but how do you tell the difference between "people " and rocks ? They are both appearances within your consciousness.  So you can only ever BELIEVE that the rock is still there or that people have consciousness.  I'm not saying they don't aka solipsism.  I'm saying it can't be known .

This question about the relationship between subjects and objects has been beaten to death throughout the history of philosophy. And until now it's not resolved. Maybe it's all a dream in your mind...who knows ? Who the fuck knows ?

[Carl-Richard]

@Someone here I explictly said I didn't disprove solipsism.

[Someone here]

1 minute ago, Carl-Richard said:

@Someone here I explictly said I didn't disprove solipsism.

Ok my  bad. 

Then can you summarize your point so that I can see what to do with it? 

Also, a tangent question..isn't the same mechanism of looking at the rock and blinking applies to your nightly dreams as well?