The Association for Spiritual Integrity — honor code of ethics for spiritual teachers

[Carl-Richard]

10 hours ago, Razard86 said:

Society is a cult, every society ever made is a cult.

Most people imprint a large amount of society's values as they grow up. For these people, joining a cult is not a neutral thing. If they were instead brought up in a cult, then the cult becomes more analogous to the larger culture. It's mainly the process of exposing people to experiences that radically offends their values which starts to become ethically concerning, e.g. the process of being separated from one's community, one's family, one's friends, one's notions of bodily autonomy and sense of reality. That is the main reason why "cult" is such a naughty word and why it matters.

And this is only a culturally relativistic analysis. You can certainly make more absolute cases for things like sexual abuse. You can also make the case that society is inherently healthier than a cult, because its values are relatively stable through time and need to reflect the inherent needs of the people on at least a basic level. The reason why cults often collapse is because they fail to do that.

Edited December 25, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[Razard86]

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

Most people imprint a large amount of society's values as they grow up. For these people, joining a cult is not a neutral thing. If they were instead brought up in a cult, then the cult becomes more analogous to the larger culture. It's mainly the process of exposing people to experiences that radically offends their values which starts to become ethically concerning, e.g. the process of being separated from one's community, one's family, one's friends, one's notions of bodily autonomy and sense of reality. That is the main reason why "cult" is such a naughty word and why it matters.

And this is only a culturally relativistic analysis. You can certainly make more absolute cases for things like sexual abuse. You can also make the case that society is inherently healthier than a cult, because its values are relatively stable through time and need to reflect the inherent needs of the people on at least a basic level. The reason why cults often collapse is because they fail to do that.

Carl- Richard...healthier? Literally every society has been built on the exploitation of the masses, control of information, discrimination, and nepotism. It has taken humanity 2000 plus years just to get to the current condition they are in now and that required tons of people who were willing to die to speak truth to power to create change. Society has never been healthy, its why even currently with all the evidence that our actions are destroying the planet we don't care and adopt the kick the can down the road its somebody else's problem. 

Just in America alone, I could write a whole book write now on how corrupt, unethical, and irresponsible they are and they have a more robust list of guidelines than the puny little list you presented us with. There is the law on the books (the list of rules you create) and the law in action (how it is actually enforced) and what has always been shown throughout history is that no matter how many rules you create corruption will always be apparent.

Why? Because you are dealing with egos. The solution isn't more rules, the solution is to raise consciousness. Morality is created out of fear, any actions taken out of fear creates corruption because corruption IS FEAR. Governments are corrupted through fear, so are religions and any teachings. The moment you engage in fear tactics, demonization happens, conflict happens, and corruption and justification of that corruption happens. This is why I keep bringing up the story of Adam and Eve. You are pushing the tree of knowledge of good and evil right now.

All conflict stems from humans believing in a good v.s. evil, and debating on what is good or evil. 1. They don't even understand what goodness is because goodness doesn't even perceive evil. In the eyes of goodness ALL is good at every moment. The MOMENT you perceive evil, you will commit evil. 2. Evil only happens due to a low state of consciousness, if all of humanity's consciousness were raised it would be impossible for them to commit evil. Why? Because there would be a recognition of oneness in that they literally could not hurt you without hurting themselves. Because humans are not at a state where they can feel the pain they inflict they can walk around inflicting pain with no care and only suffer subconsciously from the pain they inflict with no awareness that they are creating that pain. 

So raise the consciousness then evil is gone. I personally don't need morality to behave as the only thing you need to know is everyone is you so treat them with the same care and love you would give yourself. It allows me to know if I am going too far. I don't need anything else but to raise my consciousness even further to become even more adept at knowing what the appropriate action is.

[Carl-Richard]

22 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

Society has never been healthy

Healthier.

 

24 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

The solution isn't more rules, the solution is to raise consciousness.

You don't raise consciousness by raping people.

[Nilsi]

7 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

This thread is somewhat hilarious. Someone is like “maybe we shouldn’t allow spiritual teachers to abuse students”, and everyone is like “nah, fuck that. Unbridled abuse ftw, but only for the sake of the purity of awakening teachings”. 

13 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

You don't raise consciousness by raping people.

Nobody here is advocating for abuse. This is like saying "if you're against gun control, you support school shootings."

Edited December 25, 2022 by Nilsi

[Carl-Richard]

9 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

Nobody here is advocating for abuse. This is like saying "if you're against gun control, you support school shootings."

You start to wonder though when people start insinuating that abuse at the hands of a teacher might be a necessary part of awakening.

Edited December 25, 2022 by Carl-Richard

[zurew]

57 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

The solution isn't more rules, the solution is to raise consciousness.

Those two things is not necessarily mutually exclusive. There are stepping stones here, that need to be recognized. Its clear that rules can work at some places and rules are the best we have at some places.

Edited December 25, 2022 by zurew

[Nilsi]

4 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

You start to wonder though when people start insinuating that abuse at the hands of a teacher might be a necessary part of awakening.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

You can't give people that are spiritually clueless a say in these things, that's just out of question.

We need better education, better parenting, better governance, better religion, better economics, better agriculture, better communities...- yes.

You can't just nail some tenets to a wall and expect that to solve this problem. 

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, QQQ said:

My past ‘self’ would agree, but I can’t get on board with this teacher and student construct any more.

There is only you. Everything you interact with is a reflection of you. There is no one to teach, and there is no one to learn.

There is just being; just existence. Nothing more, nothing less.

I quite like the quote attributed to Rumi - “Half of life is lost in charming others. The other half is lost in going through anxieties caused by others. Leave this play. You have played enough.”

This absolute-relative conflation brain rot should literally be bannable. To even allow it to spread is ethically dubious in itself. We're humans, teachers exist, students exist — end of story. Spirituality is a human need. That's why you're here. It doesn't have privilege over other human needs. It doesn't get special treatment. You can let psychopathic teachers mindfuck you all you want, but I will fight that shit to the death.

[Nilsi]

6 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

This absolute-relative conflation brain rot should literally be bannable. To even allow it to spread is ethically dubious in itself. We're humans, teachers exist, students exist — end of story. Spirituality is a human need. That's why you're here. It doesn't have privilege over other human needs. It doesn't get special treatment. You can let psychopathic teachers mindfuck you all you want, but I will fight that shit to the death.

You're conflating the absolute with the relative as well though.

Spirituality is pointing to the absolute. You can deny this all you want, but at a certain point these conversations just break down, because you can't contain the truth in some finite ethical system.

It's almost as if some bald guy named Ken Wilber had been talking about this shit for 30 years now...

Edited December 25, 2022 by Nilsi

[Carl-Richard]

2 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

You're conflating the absolute with the relative as well though.

Spirituality is pointing to the absolute. You can deny this all you want, but at a certain time these conversations just break down, because you can't contain the truth in some finite ethical system.

Says the human.

[Nilsi]

2 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Says the human.

If you insist.

The finger is still pointing to the moon...

[Nilsi]

Just now, QQQ said:

You’ll get it one day Carl  Of course, you already get it but you’re just denying it.

Oh how you will chuckle with joy when the penny finally drops

[zurew]

2 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

This absolute-relative conflation brain rot should literally be bannable

I guess the most genius and intelligent way to tackle with any question or problem is to invoke the absolute, and then virtue signal that we are so wise and spiritual.

[Carl-Richard]

2 hours ago, zurew said:

I guess the most genius and intelligent way to tackle with any question or problem is to invoke the absolute, and then virtue signal that we are so wise and spiritual.

"Hua-hua, you puny human! When only you see through your human limitations, you'll be laughing like me!" *sips orange juice through his human mouth hole*

[Nilsi]

35 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

"Hua-hua, you puny human! When only you see through your human limitations, you'll be laughing like me!" *sips orange juice through his human mouth hole*

This is the reality of your situation.

I genuinely care for you, but I can't help you any other way than this.

Edited December 25, 2022 by Nilsi

[Carl-Richard]

5 hours ago, Nilsi said:

You can't give people that are spiritually clueless a say in these things, that's just out of question.

Are the spiritual teachers backing the ASI clueless? Who passes your bar?

 

5 hours ago, Nilsi said:

You can't just nail some tenets to a wall and expect that to solve this problem. 

It isn't a magic pill. It just helps.

[vladorion]

15 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

This thread is somewhat hilarious. Someone is like “maybe we shouldn’t allow spiritual teachers to abuse students”, and everyone is like “nah, fuck that. Unbridled abuse ftw, but only for the sake of the purity of awakening teachings”. 

That's how you know who's planning to become a spiritual teacher in the future and fuck their students for the sake of truth.

[vladorion]

8 hours ago, QQQ said:

My past ‘self’ would agree, but I can’t get on board with this teacher and student construct any more.

There is only you. Everything you interact with is a reflection of you. There is no one to teach, and there is no one to learn.

There is just being; just existence. Nothing more, nothing less.

I quite like the quote attributed to Rumi - “Half of life is lost in charming others. The other half is lost in going through anxieties caused by others. Leave this play. You have played enough.”

"Hey, there's no 'me' here who's abusing 'you' there, it's all just being, it's all perfect". (c) 

[Carl-Richard]

I don't see at all how the spiritual teacher pointing their finger at the absolute changes the fact that they're pointing with their human fingers for other humans to look, all in the relative realm, and that this is a source of problems.

[Moksha]

On 12/24/2022 at 1:30 PM, roopepa said:

Yeah, cause often (especially on this forum)  the word "teacher" is manipulation.

It's belief in insecurity/unworthiness projected as teachers and students. Not always, but you smell the obvious poop when it's there.

I feel every teacher should be taken with a large grain of salt. The ego loves nothing more than to pose as the antithesis of itself. Proclaiming yourself as enlightened without actually being enlightened is one of the most subtle forms of self-damnation.

True teachers are not wise, but get out of the way so wisdom arises through them. If a teaching points you toward awakening, it is not because of the teacher or the student, but entirely due to Consciousness choosing to see itself.