Subtle Thought

[DefinitelyNotARobot]

When spiritual teachers talk about thoughts, it's not always clear what they mean, because the way they talk about thoughts it sometimes seems to also include beliefs. Like when I see a chair, I don't explicitly state "chair" in my mind, my mind just somehow imposes the concept of a chair onto reality, and yet most teachers would say that "chair" is a thought. So how does one deal with these very subtle thoughts (or beliefs or whatever you'd want to call it) that are never explicitly stated by the mind? And what is the difference between a thought and belief anyway?

[AnthonyR]

You can get caught up in thoughts about the past that may depress you, or of the future that makes you anxious. Mindlessly observing (a chair) is not a thought.  Mindfully observing is not a thought either, but mindful observation grounds you in the present moment.  Mindfully performing a task is grounding, but the task may require some thinking unless you’ve done it countless times in the past and you do it mindlessly, but still finish the task.  A child will need to do a lot of thinking to understand and process the concept of a chair vs a table vs a toy car. You not so much or not at all.

You are conscious that you’re breathing for instance (no thought), but now that I pointed it out to you, your attention goes to your breathing. So you’re now meta-conscious that you are breathing (thought).

There are instances when I’m driving and conscious of my actions, and I’m quite attentive to the road and braking and accelerating and changing lanes (meta-conscious in those moments), but having driven countless times before, it is quite a mindless task that comes naturally.  I may form a memory here and there of perhaps stopping at a red light and noticing a pretty driver next to me or someone cutting me off, but If I try to recall every instance of the drive from memory of a 20 mile journey I wouldn’t be able to, but I still know that I got home safely.

Beliefs are formed memories that consciously or meta-consciously influence your thoughts about situations or circumstances.  If I ask you do you believe in Red lights, you will say “absolutely” I will stop at a red light (Belief).  Do you believe that you’re Male or Female? This response might be context dependant.  It will be a straightforward response male or female (belief) or a twisted response (belief mixed with some thoughts) or perhaps “I’m not sure, I’m still questioning” (less belief more thoughts to sort through) - Do you believe that a lion could eat you? Do you believe in God? Do you believe 2+2 is 4? Do you believe God has a companion God? Do you believe in the color Blue? Do you think that insect in the movie is a real insect or CGI?  Which of these questions makes you think thoughts, which ones comes from belief? 

 

[ivankiss]

A belief is just a denser, more solidified thought - if you will. Relatively speaking, It's a thought that has been thought of over and over again. Many times.

Instead of trying to erase the belief, I'd suggest to focus on simply seeing through it. Realize it's just that - a thought - and bring awareness to the breath. Stay with it.

Ideally, you would enter a uninterrupted meditative state. From there it should be very obvious that 'a chair' is just a thought you're having right now.

[Kamo]

A belief is a combination of thoughts together to form the description of the belief that you hold as true or false. 

[DefinitelyNotARobot]

@ivankiss @Kamo Can I ask you what exactly you mean by thought? I'm trying to understand how, if a believe is a set of thoughts, there can be implicit beliefs. Like there are beliefs within what I am writing, but I am not explicitly "thinking" everyone of these beliefs through. It feels like beliefs are more fundamental than thoughts, since they inform thoughts, but that might be an unnecessary distinction.

[Kamo]

@DefinitelyNotARobot Thought is basically a mental representation of an idea. Its what the mind uses to designate course of action or non action. Belief is your determination of the accuracy of the idea whether valid or invalid to your frame of reference. Implicit or Explicit just comes down to utility and communication of the idea across paradigms.( other perspectives)  Beliefs would be a prior set of thoughts that you have already determined to be valid or invalid that are then used implicitly to inform new thoughts. 

[DefinitelyNotARobot]

@Kamo Then how did belief come into existence in the first place? Most beliefs are based on prior beliefs, that are accepted/rejected based on how they fit into ones ego structure, but there must be fundamental beliefs that are formed prior to having any frame of reference. Beliefs that form the very foundation of our frame of reference.

[Kamo]

@DefinitelyNotARobot Yeah beliefs seem to be an automatic function of how our mind constructs our narratives about reality. I dont know exactly how they came into existence outside them being a function of how our mind holds ideas, to then use as a tool for our survival. Leos got a video titled "The mechanics of Belief." Im sure you may find some answers in that video. 

[Breakingthewall]

thoughts are inevitable since they are a function of our mind. If we were a tuna we would not have thoughts, only impulses. Thought is an advanced function that allows humans to foresee the future based on the past. Tuna can foresee the future based on the past in a genetic way, but this takes many generations having experience until it is encoded. the human shortens this process to a single lifetime. In addition, we improve it with language. Not only can you predict the future based on your past, but you can do so based on the past of others. this makes you a survival machine. the problem is the next step. when thought takes the place of reality. Thought also has a hive-functioning function. unites human groups according to emotional symbols, creates competition between them, making the most successful prevail for the sake of evolution, and thus achieve mastery of the environment, instead of adaptation to the environment.

transcending all this is not a game. there are genetic factors that drag you to take your place in the hive. to be a robot.

there is a path of transcendence in which you can go beyond the gene and free yourself, but do not expect that with some practices indicated by a teacher. You have to put all of yourself here. it is the ultimate game.