Call Me A Crazy Iraqi, But I Can't Say The War On Iraq Was That Bad !!

[Mesopotamian]

Soon to be 20 years since the American Invasion to Iraq, and I still think it was a good happening and not the worst thing that happened to Iraq.

I feel those who cry the Iraq war and think that it shouldn't have happened, I feel that they are actually crying over how Saddam Hussain, a moralist, tribal, criminal dictator was overthrown!

This man was sleeping on Iraqi's chests, and was leading the country into wars with neighbors, and during those wars also millions were killed.

This man came to power after a bloody coup, and he also solidified his ruling through assassinating all of those whom he thought would stand against his authority.

Here's a fact: The war of Iraq and overthrowing of Saddam Hussain's regime only lasted 21 days or so? this is just based on my memory of what happened. As a teenager, it was one of the happiest days in my life when we saw the statue of Saddam comes down, and I ran to check out his vast palace complex, running from one palace to another, until I got exhausted, and then after that a spent 10 days at home trying to recover from sever legs pain.

What followed after that and the prolonging of the occupation was actually because of the bloody resistance, bunch of crazy gangster people who were trying to use the religious scripts and international laws as pretexts to kill "the occupiers" and whomever works with them wherever they find them.

I am also glad that these were dealt with firmly, and the incident of Abu Ghareeb prison, which personally I thought is a coordinated master peace, has been successful to put an end of that, and that's when those gangsters were promised to be exposed to rape, which is the highest dishonor in Islam. All the movement died and Iraq finally moved on.

The ISIS thing happened because of the corruption, and if I had to point a finger to the folks whom were responsible for that, it is the Obama Administration, and the less involvement of Obama compared to George Bush in the Iraqi situation has led to the rise of ISIS.

Trump had to deal with the efforts of liberating Iraq from ISIS and the whole country was mobilized to fight them, and also had less involvement.

Now for Biden, there's zero involvement in the Iraqi situation, yet the corruption continues as high as ever. 

The Iraqi state is still the biggest looting operation in the history of mankind, but of course this won't be lasting forever. One day Iraq is going to fall into chaos and war again, and I don't think the idea will hold that it was all because of the war on Iraq in 2003.

 

[Guest Nilsi]

Invading another country is never a solution imo. Also, Saddam was the type of leader that they needed at that point in time. Had we cooperated (to the extend that this would have been possible), everybody would have been better off. This is no better than christian holy war.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Nilsi

[Leo Gura]

19 hours ago, Mesopotamian said:

The ISIS thing happened because of the corruption

Yeah, but that was the whole point of Saddam. He used an iron fist to keep the bandits in checks. Then the bandits got loose. This was a very predictable and direct consequence of taking out Saddam. A country at the development level of Iraq requires some authoritarian to keep tribal warfare from consuming all of society. The fundamental issue is that there isn't really an Iraqi national identity, there are many smaller tribal identities so no unity is possible. Iraq has yet to evolve to the level of nationalism; it's at the tribal level. If every Iraqi agreed to surrender their tribal identity and all think of themselves as Iraqis, then they could live in peace, at least among themselves.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Leo Gura

[LSD-Rumi]

@Leo Gura Iran also is responsible for fueling a lot the tribal warfares in the Middle East, like in Iraq and Yemen. The Siiates are being manipulated By Iran which wants to expand its influence in the Middle East. Also, in Lebanon and Syria. Iran is responsible for a lot of the suffering in the Middle East. 

[Mesopotamian]

@Leo Gura You're completely and absolutely right with the two points that you've just mentioned Leo.

Saddam was ruling with an iron fist, and as some Iraqis also think that he was "keeping a lid on the manhole". My next point is that it was very hard to forge this national identity that you've . here are some factors that might have prohibited that:

1- During his 30 in power, there were no practical attempts or initiatives that I know of in that direction. Unlike let's say Ataturk who worked actively to forge that identity. 

2- He kept the tribes and tribal system intact and used their support in order to solidify his power.

3- He himself was a tribal man, and even his sons, both of them were tribal. Even Kim Jong Un said to have studied in Europe, yet Saddadm was refusing to open up and send his children to study abroad.

4- he was actively trying to get himself into wars, and basically starting from 1991, he positioned the Iraqi people to be at war with the united states. His attitude has shifted more towards considering the US to be his number one antagonist, thus mobilizing Iraqis to look at the united states as their no. 1 enemy.

Basically if anybody to support him stay in power, they are also supporting endless suffering and wars for Iraqi people  

I don't want to build my national identity on hating America! I love America!

 

[Leo Gura]

Of course Saddam was a creature of his tribal culture. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Saddam's biography is actually deeply fascinating to read.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Razard86]

1 hour ago, Mesopotamian said:

@Leo Gura You're completely and absolutely right with the two points that you've just mentioned Leo.

Saddam was ruling with an iron fist, and as some Iraqis also think that he was "keeping a lid on the manhole". My next point is that it was very hard to forge this national identity that you've . here are some factors that might have prohibited that:

1- During his 30 in power, there were no practical attempts or initiatives that I know of in that direction. Unlike let's say Ataturk who worked actively to forge that identity. 

2- He kept the tribes and tribal system intact and used their support in order to solidify his power.

3- He himself was a tribal man, and even his sons, both of them were tribal. Even Kim Jong Un said to have studied in Europe, yet Saddadm was refusing to open up and send his children to study abroad.

4- he was actively trying to get himself into wars, and basically starting from 1991, he positioned the Iraqi people to be at war with the united states. His attitude has shifted more towards considering the US to be his number one antagonist, thus mobilizing Iraqis to look at the united states as their no. 1 enemy.

Basically if anybody to support him stay in power, they are also supporting endless suffering and wars for Iraqi people  

I don't want to build my national identity on hating America! I love America!

 

I just think its funny how reasonable people like you aren't in power. How the hell does someone as reasonable as you grow under those conditions. Its so funny to me how the most reasonable people aren't in power and the most unreasonable people often are. Picture if the majority of your people were as reasonable as you...Iraq wouldn't have the issues it has. 

Tell me....why are you so different than the collective? What happened in your personal life that shaped you to be as reasonable as you are?

[Mesopotamian]

28 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course Saddam was a creature of his tribal culture. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Saddam's biography is actually deeply fascinating to read.

I wish I knew about more about systems thinking, and my intuition tells me that there was something there and the regime that Saddam was on top wasn't going anywhere anyways.. 

Here's an actual footage of Qusai, teaching his children (soon to rule Iraq) how to use guns, and makes me wonder at what age he would start teaching them to use it on people?

https://youtu.be/5mvB-dDLSh4

 

[Leo Gura]

One of his sons was a true psychopath. Can't recall which.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Mesopotamian]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

One of his sons was a true psychopath. Can't recall which.

Correct.. It was Audai, has a pretty interesting story and went through a failed assassination attempt which left him half paralyzed.. Was all over the media. 

The other was Qusai, was living a discreet life away from media while still occupying higher positions in the states, being prepared to be next in line to rule Iraq. 

[Mesopotamian]

2 hours ago, Razard86 said:

I just think its funny how reasonable people like you aren't in power. How the hell does someone as reasonable as you grow under those conditions. Its so funny to me how the most reasonable people aren't in power and the most unreasonable people often are. Picture if the majority of your people were as reasonable as you...Iraq wouldn't have the issues it has. 

Tell me....why are you so different than the collective? What happened in your personal life that shaped you to be as reasonable as you are?

Basically I hit the wall for hundreds of times, and that's when I learned.. 

The politicians don't hit many walls, all they have to do is to repeat and amplify what the collective think

[Breakingthewall]

Saddam, the very son of a bitch, was a king like the Mesopotamian kings of the time of the Romans. his intention to serve iraq as a nation was zero. he was the one who mattered, iraq was his toy. What a stupid without an atom of nobility. it is worth a war to free a country from that curse. perhaps in the end, with Saddam one lived better, but it is the same, one must free oneself from such humiliation. 

The bad thing is that it is most likely that another one will appear, or worse... but you have to try

Edited September 5, 2022 by Breakingthewall