Why Cybernetics,Systems thinking has to be in stage yellow ? why not Orange&Green

[flyingguitarist]

Hello guys i got this question because  there is a subject called Control Systems , Control Theory  for engineering undergrads in their syllabus.. and is related to cybernetics , seems similar to 'systems thinking' , so I thought "well engg is usually in stage orange and such  topics are  "stage yellow",its been taught to us who aren't much developed to yellow .. so if somebody knows Systems theory ,systems thinking, cybernetics , Networking etc.. etc..(lets say if he/her develops more curiosity to get deeper.. ) does that mean he/she is in stage yellow?even though his/her stage orange environment has taught him about cybernetics and does systems thinking limited to Stage Yellow ? why not green and Orange ?.. 

[Carl-Richard]

Systems thinking as a technical term isn't necessarily Tier 2. It's rather about having a "mature systems view of life" (context awareness, construct awareness and theory pluralism). The concepts from systems thinking are nevertheless useful for conceptualizing this view.

 

[Bernardo Carleial]

We gotta be careful with trying to fit every category into the SD Model, it is not black and white...

Manipulating systems can be done even at vMEME Red,  the thing is, as you evolve in the Spiral,  you start to embody these principles in a more healthy and sustainable manner...

A person at vMEME Orange/Green  might understand the concept of Systems Thinking, they might even apply it into their field of expertise,  but to really grasp the significance and implications of that level of thinking and management, in their own lives and their surroundings, I believe that comes with Tier 2 vMEME Yellow.

[Bernardo Carleial]

"A truly profound and different insight is the way you begin to see that the system causes its own behavior."

Donella Meadows

[flyingguitarist]

@Carl-Richard How can we expand  our construct , context awareness/ have a mature systems view ? like do we have to read,explore bunch of theories ,example ken wilber stuff and apply in day to day life ? or is it something more..

 

Meanwhile what some good resources to learn  community psychology ?which  you'd mentioned in the post , that sounds interesting   

 

 

[flyingguitarist]

@Bernardo Carleial Okay so how can we all start to embody these principles , sure everyone's gotta figure on their own to embody , btw how did you figure out to embody it? coz all these theories,words,concepts are  in my head ,but lack of embodiment

[Leo Gura]

Of course you can have ideas about systems at Orange and below.

"Systems thinking" in the way we use that term is more about having a systemic view of reality and aligning your life with that view. It's not merely about reading some books about systems.

As an analogy, a Blue or Orange person can read a book about God and learn all the theory about God, but that doesn't mean they have any living experience of God. You can easily turn God into a theory you study as an academic. That does not mean you are spiritual.

[Carl-Richard]

8 hours ago, flyingguitarist said:

How can we expand  our construct , context awareness/ have a mature systems view ? like do we have to read,explore bunch of theories ,example ken wilber stuff and apply in day to day life ? or is it something more. 

General life experience and introspection. Reading systems theory can speed things up, but it's not the main driving force.

 

8 hours ago, flyingguitarist said:

Meanwhile what some good resources to learn  community psychology ?which  you'd mentioned in the post , that sounds interesting   

https://www.amazon.com/Community-Psychology-Pursuit-Liberation-Well-Being/dp/1137464097

[Windappreciator]

well any lower level doesn't have the emotional resilience yet to do that to a significant extend compared to the higher.  orange is too attached to certain ways of seeing itself within the world and seeing the world too let go of it.

it is painful to let go of these things and they did not learn yet to subject themselves to consciously be uncomfortable to achieve something more than they are, yet.

that is why it takes outside pain source for most to make them get out of it.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Windappreciator

[Bernardo Carleial]

On 4/2/2022 at 8:41 AM, Carl-Richard said:

General life experience and introspection. Reading systems theory can speed things up, but it's not the main driving force.

And for Systems Thinking I highly recommend you this book!

https://www.amazon.com/Fifth-Discipline-Practice-Learning-Organization/dp/0385517254

[Bernardo Carleial]

On 4/2/2022 at 8:49 AM, Windappreciator said:

well any lower level doesn't have the emotional resilience yet to do that to a significant extend compared to the higher.  orange is too attached to certain ways of seeing itself within the world and seeing the world too let go of it.

I agree with you @Windappreciator.

I just don't think that the real problem is with emotional resilience...

All that you described was true, but I think this has more to do with raising ones consciousness/awareness, that what I believe to be the necessary step, and to have this realization and (shadow)working to transcend his own biases requires a strugling process of emotional resilience... but I believe that elevating one's consciousness is primal for realizing one of the most important concepts in Systems Thinking: that the structure influences behavior.