Consequences of a unregulated dating market (hypergamy)

[zazen]

I think there are many causes for the lack of strength in men today in its many forms physical, social, emotional, etc. On the physical side the access we have to high caloric foods we'r designed to crave and the sedentary lifestyle with our modern day office jobs. Emotional due to unstable family upbringings from childhood, not having a father in the picture to show what masculinity and strength should look like then going into a education system where majority of teachers are female so again not many can see and learn what the masculine is like through osmosis. Then the social side because we grow up behind screens now we'r more cut off from the opposite sex and don't develop those social skills we need. 

 

Online dating takes the harsh rejection out for men, they would rather avoid the effort and embarrassment of in person rejection. So everything has moved online. Problem there is that women are attracted to a lot more than just looks and those qualities aren't able to be shown online, so naturally men swipe more and women are more selective in the swipes and skews to top percentile of men. This has been shown again and again in studies. Also, todays environment is pretty hostile towards men. The me too movement which is valid, was the experience of a few percent of the population that got projected out as if its most men who are like that, this created a fear in a lot of men to now approach women ( which their weren't enough men doing anyway ) or for men to consider meeting their partners through work ( men won't even be alone with a woman in a office now days let alone flirt ). 

 

The pick up industry arose to correct mens social ills in good faith, obviously what it turned into did have shades of toxicity. But when men need to learn these skills and it is a skill, society shouldn't take elements of it and bash / cancel the whole ordeal. Even red pill etc has elements of truth to it, within anything there will be shades of toxicity of course but to blow those out of proportion and shut down the whole thing is a dis service. Its an easy out. If whenever women discussed mens issues men took something slightly demeaning and focused on it and said thats misandry,stop all this that wouldn't be helpful. There are plenty of women talk shows but very few for men to solve their problems, so forums and platforms were created for this. Men need to learn to develop themselves, and women need stronger better men today more than ever. 

 

The guys who'v had it good with women can't just say be your self bro, or be cool. If most guys were just them selves they'd creep girls out. Guys have to be their strongest selves and approach from a position of strength. 

 

Edited September 18, 2021 by zazen

[zazen]

31 minutes ago, Windappreciator said:

@zazen

@zazen 

Trying to weasel the incel into it.

 

Very constructive reply my friend, so much wisdom and feedback.  Voluntary celibacy is fine, but most men aren't doing it voluntarily. Their biology pulls at them and we must have sympathy for such people. Once the clutches of biology and their hormones starts weakening on men in their later years only then can they be at some ease and look to other aspects of life not dominated by sex. That or spiritual work from a younger age. 

 

Our society pedestalises sex and its all around us, naturally as sex sells to our lower nature, it naturally makes every man think thats what they ought to shoot for. We are a over sexualised society yet undersexed people.  And women suffer also for the caricature of the women put on display, the unrealistic shapes of Kardashians etc. Maybe from a sexual repressive society this was a needed swing the other way of the pendulum so we aren't scared of shamed for our sexuality but it needs to come back to balance now. 

I won't entertain your further comments unless they have some substance. 

Edited September 18, 2021 by zazen

[zazen]

Women want men in touch with their femininity as the ladies have mentioned, but they want strong men in touch with their feminine, not weak. The masculine essence is strength, the feminine softness. Balanced men would be mostly masculine with some feminine to round them off and women mostly feminine with some masculine to round them off. If women were completely feminine without the masculine they would be too easily dominated over and have no boundaries. If men are too masculine they are un empathetic and too harsh. 

Now days men are lacking their masculinity, and the few that are in touch with it are so in a toxic way. The bad boys, jerks, etc and the music industry specifically hip hop exhibits toxic masculinity, not tempered by any femininity. Most men today are nice guys, but they lack the masculine. Women want a man who wants them, but does not need them as they are emotional spiritually strong amongst them selves. If men were stronger physically ( in touch with their sexuality and able to flirt ), emotionally ( not unavailable but resilient, to be a pillar for his woman and go through the harsh realities of life ), mentally ( in his perspective and way he views him self and the world, in a positive light and that he has worth and is esteemed ) and spiritually strong ( so he feels at home in himself and the world and at ease around women ). Men of strength are relaxed, and when relaxed they can be funnier, witty, non needy, speak clearly and project their voice, and empathetic towards women for if he is in fear of women how can he care for her when he's worried about caring for himself and his self image.

 

In turn women feel relaxed around such men and secure, and when they are safe they can rest in their femininity and soften up. Lack of strong men causes women to have to be excessively strong themselves, at the expense of their softness. Hence, in todays world we have  more stronger behaviours which men aren't attracted to such as swearing, combativeness, attitude etc. And for their to be attraction there needs to be a polarity of the masculine and feminine. 

 

 

[zazen]

22 minutes ago, Windappreciator said:

@zazen

You have an axiomatic problem. Your words preassume the existence of so much, yet it's not.

That's where you need to grab on. Not the issues you're painting but from where you're painting the issues.

 

To start with see that there is a problem, then we can figure out solutions. But yes your right, there is no problem. Everyone is in a happy stable relationships and not alone and suffering in our society. Morgan Stanley with all their billions are delusional also to be investing money to research into trends of how over half the population of mating age will be living alone by 2030 and how this impacts real estate and the wider economy. 

https://www.morganstanley.com/ideas/womens-impact-on-the-economy

The stage green, free love utopia that people think will exist where everyone is loved is a disney dream at least in the short to medium term. The people on this forum may be able to love each other despite their not being any attraction but this is under 1 percent of the population. People aren't evolved enough, men aren't evolved enough to love a unattractive lady in the romantic sense, and neither are women to love a weak man who they have to take care of. Until we get to the point where a woman will see the weakest men and consciously be able to say, this man isn't getting any love so I will love him un conditionally, even though Im not attracted to them as it would be better for our society and stop movements such as incels or extreme red pill from propping up, only then can that society function. 

Our culture and psychology may think in stage green, but our biology will takes thousands of years to evolve to stage green and for it to happen very naturally for us. Nature influences our genes, but we are also able to influence our genes by what we select for and pro create with, just that this takes a very very long time. Maybe in a thousand years babies will be born who are able to love unconditionally without attraction, who knows..

Edited September 18, 2021 by zazen

[Windappreciator]

@zazen @zazen

You're functioning under the same axiomatic problem again.

You won't be able to the defeat it if you look at its results and not itself.

[zazen]

Fundamentally, biological evolution is slow, cultural evolution is fast, this is the essential problem humanity is facing today. Our lizard brains simply haven't had enough time to adapt to the chaos of the modern age. We have to live from our intelligence rather than instinct, from compulsion (of our instincts) to conciseness ( of how we'd like society to be ). The challenge is it's very hard to discard our natural instincts and in spiral dynamics lower stages are integrated, we have to integrates and live harmoniously with the lower level, that includes the lower parts of ourselves, work with out nature.

Its for this reason we have an obesity problem and high divorce rates. Our environment is triggering those instincts in a un healthy fashion. In past environments our instincts didn't destroy us as we had active lifestyles and limited high caloric food, and limited access to partners or by force of religion were not allowed to sleep around easily. Freedom of any kind confers the danger of making the wrong decision, instinctual decisions that in the modern environment can cause us and society harm. Sure, we are free now but we are not free and liberated from ourselves and our instinct, yet.. only the awakened ones are, the sages, the budhha's.

On a long enough time scale reality wins, and all what we are going through is our evolution on the path to awakening from our beast nature to our buddha nature. We are currently in limbo between the two, but in order to grow towards the sky, the tree needs to be rooted in the soil also. Our lowest nature is the stepping stone to higher things, we can't discard that stepping stone or deny its existence. The mud, the lower is from where we grow to the heavens. 

Edited September 18, 2021 by zazen

[mandyjw]

11 hours ago, Raptorsin7 said:

@mandyjw Probably my competitive instinct. I want to understand when people make major mistakes so I can avoid them, and my mom's brother is in a similar situation so I hear about this quite a bit. 

Also, i used the example of my cousin because it's directly related to OP's topic. My cousin is an example of a modern woman who was left to her own devices to choose a partner, and now she's single in her late 30's with poor relationship prospects. A bunch of people just dismissed OP's premise as nonsense, but I have a real life example that illustrates what he's talking about

You talk about relationship prospects like it's a giant rummage sale that someone can show up late for. Everyone's "prospects" for anything are created by their own thoughts, fears and expectations. So you can look at someone and say they made a mistake, but that would be the mistake, because there are no mistakes. 

[Raptorsin7]

@mandyjw Well I guess I do view relationships competitively, but I don't think that's a bad thing because I think dating is competitve.

See, I disagree with you saying there are no mistakes in dating. If a woman/man were to go out and have 6 kids with 6 different men/woman, that would be impact their dating prospects in a negative way. That is a mistake that I want to avoid.

[mandyjw]

1 hour ago, zazen said:

In turn women feel relaxed around such men and secure, and when they are safe they can rest in their femininity and soften up. Lack of strong men causes women to have to be excessively strong themselves, at the expense of their softness. Hence, in todays world we have  more stronger behaviours which men aren't attracted to such as swearing, combativeness, attitude etc. And for their to be attraction there needs to be a polarity of the masculine and feminine. 

I find all this "what makes attraction work" stuff as if every time I went into nature there was a narrator from the sky. "Now look to the left, over here is a pine tree. The pine tree reproduces by making pine cones!" 

Uh! Who would want that? It's beautiful. Just enjoy it, rather than thinking so much about why or for who. There's a point that understanding loses any benefit whatsoever and actually takes away from what is meant to be observed and enjoyed.  

[mandyjw]

1 minute ago, Raptorsin7 said:

@mandyjw Well I guess I do view relationships competitively, but I don't think that's a bad thing because I think dating is competitve.

See, I disagree with you saying there are no mistakes in dating. If a woman/man were to go out and have 6 kids with 6 different men/woman, that would be impact their dating prospects in a negative way. That is a mistake that I want to avoid.

People are not mistakes. 

[Raptorsin7]

@mandyjw Ok so what would you say if your son/daughter said mom I'm going to go and have 8 kids by 8 different people. You would say honey there are no mistakes so do what you want?

There are no mistakes. What can you say against that?

[zazen]

2 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

People are not mistakes. 

5 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

I find all this "what makes attraction work" stuff as if every time I went into nature there was a narrator from the sky. "Now look to the left, over here is a pine tree. The pine tree reproduces by making pine cones!" 

Uh! Who would want that? It's beautiful. Just enjoy it, rather than thinking so much about why or for who. There's a point that understanding loses any benefit whatsoever and actually takes away from what is meant to be observed and enjoyed.  

Mistakes may be the wrong word as it denotes shame. Same with whats good and bad, but in reality there is cause and affect. There are actions and their consequences, the only question is a what consequences come from certain actions of ours and are we willing to deal with them as such. 

Agreed, too much head and not enough heart loses the magic in life. But at the same time, their are men struggling who wish to know how things work as they couldn't learn naturally. 

[mandyjw]

@Raptorsin7 I doubt anyone actually plans to do that. However if it happens, it's not a mistake. The kids aren't mistakes. The parents aren't mistakes. See what I'm saying? The self identification is sticky there.

Being overly cautious trying to avoid mistakes is a mistake. It means you focus on what's going wrong and take measures to protect yourself, so that you never allow yourself to enjoy life with risk inherent, never fly on a plane, never swim in the ocean, etc, that would be a mistake. All you can do is focus on what you DO want, and then you intelligently decline situations that don't match that in favor of what you want more. 

1 minute ago, zazen said:

But at the same time, their are men struggling who wish to know how things work as they couldn't learn naturally. 

? 

[zazen]

4 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

@Raptorsin7 I doubt anyone actually plans to do that. However if it happens, it's not a mistake. The kids aren't mistakes. The parents aren't mistakes. See what I'm saying? The self identification is sticky there.

Being overly cautious trying to avoid mistakes is a mistake. It means you focus on what's going wrong and take measures to protect yourself, so that you never allow yourself to enjoy life with risk inherent, never fly on a plane, never swim in the ocean, etc, that would be a mistake. All you can do is focus on what you DO want, and then you intelligently decline situations that don't match that in favor of what you want more. 

? 

The only mistake is ignorance, but even that is not a mistake. How can we judge people when they don't act consciously, they aren't even the ones acting. Their biology, instincts, impulses and biases are running the show. Forgive them for they know not what they do, much of humanity is asleep to themselves and their actions. Our society has to move from ignorance to intelligence. 

 

 

[Windappreciator]

@zazen

You're laying on a bit thick

Edited September 18, 2021 by Windappreciator

[zazen]

This guy has very interesting insights in his approach to male/female dynamics. He isn't red pilled or bitter either.

 

Edited September 18, 2021 by zazen

[Emerald]

6 hours ago, zazen said:

To start with see that there is a problem, then we can figure out solutions. But yes your right, there is no problem. Everyone is in a happy stable relationships and not alone and suffering in our society. Morgan Stanley with all their billions are delusional also to be investing money to research into trends of how over half the population of mating age will be living alone by 2030 and how this impacts real estate and the wider economy. 

https://www.morganstanley.com/ideas/womens-impact-on-the-economy

The stage green, free love utopia that people think will exist where everyone is loved is a disney dream at least in the short to medium term. The people on this forum may be able to love each other despite their not being any attraction but this is under 1 percent of the population. People aren't evolved enough, men aren't evolved enough to love a unattractive lady in the romantic sense, and neither are women to love a weak man who they have to take care of. Until we get to the point where a woman will see the weakest men and consciously be able to say, this man isn't getting any love so I will love him un conditionally, even though Im not attracted to them as it would be better for our society and stop movements such as incels or extreme red pill from propping up, only then can that society function. 

Our culture and psychology may think in stage green, but our biology will takes thousands of years to evolve to stage green and for it to happen very naturally for us. Nature influences our genes, but we are also able to influence our genes by what we select for and pro create with, just that this takes a very very long time. Maybe in a thousand years babies will be born who are able to love unconditionally without attraction, who knows..

You’re making that assumption again that only a small percentage of the population will have people attracted to them.

But as I’ve said before, most people are capable of being attracted to most people.

And NO ONE needs to be with anyone that they’re not attracted to. Attraction is just the pre-requisite for romance to occur.

And people tend to be attracted to their match… especially women. 

In a person who is emotionally mature enough to sustain a long term relationship, looks and status are just the initial bar that has to be crossed. And for most people, that bar is analogous to where they are personally.

If you look at statistics (or if you just go to a flea market or grocery store), you’ll see that most people have a partner who matches them.

So this people only being attracted to millionaires and supermodels thing is not actually a real issue. Dispossess yourself of that illusion.

[zazen]

@Emerald

I understand where your coming from. Its not even about the 1%. I guess people use the extreme end to get the point across. Lets say if even 70% of men are attractive enough and able to get a partner. How does society look if 30% who aren't able to stay single even though they don't desire too. The other 30% of women who those men could partner with, maybe those women decide they'd rather not go with them and live out their aspirations as they have the option to do so in todays free world, and there is no compulsion for them to be with those men because women don't depend those men for their livelihood. 

Their is equality of outcome and equality of opportunity. You could say a stage green free love society is in a sense capitalistic, because it is a free market where everyone has equality of opportunity to get the mate they'd like. In the past they pretty much enforced equality of outcome ie every man and woman has a partner. It's the same way as how the far left try to enforce equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity. Interesting way of looking at the situation. 

 

Maybe in the past it would have a destabilising affect on society. But now we have pornography, and other avenues of entertainment to almost satiate / sedate these men. Yet, we still get some who can't handle the pressure of their sexual urge and let it out in a grim fashion. We had a shooting here in UK last month in Plymouth by a self professed incel in fact killing a few people including his mother. A lot of the school shooters were in similar situations. I think for women the sexual urge isn't as intense as it is for men. Men can be horny most of the time where as for women its with the right man in the right context and setting. 

Edited September 18, 2021 by zazen

[Windappreciator]

@zazen @zazen 

Stage Green love is not a market and it's not like a market.

[Late Boomer]

Already shared this in another sub-forum where this was a topic starter. Might be helpful to somebody...

It might be helpful to elaborate on my perspective. Correct me if I get my spiral dynamics confused, but I think I have the gist....

I only just discovered Carl Jung and how the ego mind is separate from the rest of the mind. I only just discovered what the shadow is, how it affects your life and what you can do about it. If I had discovered Jung in my 20s or 30s it would have changed everything, but I have no complaints. I think my path made me into who I was supposed to be at this moment. 

I was an incel before the term was coined. I literally never got laid till I was 47. I'm 56 now.

I grew up in a very stage blue environment. Small towns in the rural South. Fundamentalist Christian. My parents were very much in love and did it the traditional way. Very good parents, but they couldn't control for all events. I experienced some sexual trauma when I was a young child and I was bullied in junior high, including by girls I was attracted to. I was also arty and bookish in a very anti-intellectual community. I became very introverted and built up a pretty strong shell. (On the upside, I learned not to care if anyone liked me or not, which has served me well.)

It didn't occur to me to blame women or society, because red pill dogma didn't exist yet, but I was lonely. I wanted sex, no idea how to get it. I understand now that events from my youth were embedded deep within my psyche and were unconsciously controlling my behavior and demeanor. AKA, my shadow.

As a result I had no game. I could talk to a girl about books or school or religion or what have you, but I was terrified to get personal, even if I really wanted to. Looking back, I can think of several I could have dated if I'd had guts enough to try, but I always found excuses why they weren't "the one." Instead, I had crushes I never acted on and used porn. And went on with my life.

I was lucky enough to find a career that let me use my brains, which is hard to come by in small townsville - newspaper journalism. It forced me to learn to talk to all kinds of people, learn to take criticism and develop skills and confidence. I evolved from stage blue Republican to stage orange libertarian Republican, but for dating I still had stage blue attitudes - monogamy, preferably the girl would be a virgin (so I wouldn't be judged if I couldn't perform), double standard for myself if I happened to get laid by some miracle. 

Again, I can think of plenty of missed opportunities. Any excuse not to try. I wanted what Mom and Dad had. As a result, any time I went on a date, I put pressure on myself - "this has to be the one" - which made for awkward dates, which I lied to myself about.

It didn't get better until I finally reached the point of now or never.

And became disillusioned with the right wing and evolved into stage green, which is more compatible with the type of woman I wanted - a smart woman with culture, who I could talk to and who would understand. And wound up in the orbit of a city full of women with those values. I went on enough dates until one of them clicked, and we're now married. And I guess I'm still somewhat stage blue about that because I have no desire to be with anyone else, nor does she. We're in this to the end. 

Again, no regrets. If I had settled down with someone earlier, I might have become stuck in a small town in a conservative culture with a hyper religious partner. When I inevitably became an atheist and progressive and whatever kind of spiritual but not religious creature I am today, I would have gotten a divorce, lost custody of any children, had an ex and in-laws that hated me. Or would have to suffer in silence and live a lie.

It took me decades to get where I am now. Stage green heading into stage yellow and hopefully beyond, more in touch with my feelings and more confident for it. If you want to get there faster than I did, do the work.

Study your shadow and find out what's holding you back. Have the courage to admit when you're wrong, face the things you're ashamed and afraid of in yourself. Be skeptical about your skepticism. Maybe get therapy. Read some Jung. Listen to some thinkers like Eckhart Tolle and Alan Watts. I would say try mushrooms like I did, but if you're not ready you could have a rough time of it. You have to be willing to lower your defenses.

That you're here is a good sign. 

I haven't solved all my problems. I'm currently an old progressive without a job in a radicalizing Southern state. I have to figure out where I'm going next. I still have things in my shadow that are holding me back. That's why I'm here.