Surfingthewave

Gaslighting

73 posts in this topic

Gaslighting is a form of vague lying. Truth is power and the only reason anyone avoids it is in favor of lies is fear and insecurity which comes out of misunderstanding. The lie is a way of perpetuating misunderstanding. While it appears that the person telling the lie DOES know how things really are and that can be infuriating, misunderstanding is still the name of the game. Both parties are focusing on their own inadequacy. The difference is that in identification one looks like the abuser and one looks like the victim, but those judgements are very short sighted. People deny and reflect different behaviors out of fear. Some become aggressive, some become shy and passive in response. It's as impersonal as a color appearing as the color that it reflects or rejects, all colors are born out of and seen in white light, in all potential of the separate colors.

One of the major issues that comes up in communities like this is that encouragement to drop what we know in order to let in a deeper Truth, Love or clarity often is first judged or passed off as a kind of gaslighting or avoidance. It's not. You, only YOU, know it for yourself by how it feels. The whole point is to connect YOU with your own inner power, which turns out to be quite impersonal and therefore... unlimited. We don't see clearly or allow this power unless we are in a relaxed, allowing states. You could say that sitting to meditate is gaslighting yourself, but if you've done it for very long you've seen it as an opportunity to let insight and new perspectives in that truly heal rather than perpetuate the feeling of inadequacy that brought the gaslighting. When you pay attention to how you feel, you go immediately for the healing you seek and you also allow the specific healing you seek to find you. Concepts of abuser and abused prevent this. Healing is wholeness, if you keep defining the separation, you don't allow the healing to occur on its own. 

That doesn't mean that we don't sometimes hold people accountable or call them out. We do. But your own inner view of the situation and your role in it is critical. Healing does not come from believing that your relief comes from the other's suffering. There's no eye for an eye in healing, just two lost eyes. You're thoughts are more powerful than you realize. You are more powerful than you realize. 

 

 


My Youtube Channel- Light on Earth “We dance round in a ring and suppose, but the Secret sits in the middle and knows.”― Robert Frost

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1 hour ago, Etherial Cat said:

Thanks for writing this extremely valuable post @tsuki.

It's been a pleasure to have the opportunity to write it :)

1 hour ago, Etherial Cat said:

In a nutshell, what is so problematic about it is that is keeps the gaslit in a position of being routinely hurt, which prevents their healing. And the gaslit can rarely just substract itself from the influence of the gaslighter, because the gaslighter leverage various power move and means to keep the gaslit into the desired position. So before any type of healing can occur, it is important that the gaslit escape the reach of the gaslighter so its attack on him/her stops.

This paragraph contains a point that I've seen circulating many times and it ventures into the dangerous territory of gender wars. I know you well enough to know that you don't do this intentionally and I know myself well enough to recognize that I'm sensitive to this. With this disclaimer laid up front, let me make my point.

When it comes to the oppressor vs the victim, there is a distinction to be made here. There is abuse where things are clear cut, like the slave owner vs the slave, or parents vs children, or China's Uighur reeducation camps. In these instances, the abuser holds power over the victim's life and exercises it to mutilate their spirit. From the POV of the abuser, the purpose is to "teach" them the "healthy" way of living so that victims would "fit in" with the oppressor. In effect, this kind of abuse is about making the other person into a psychological crutch that serves to fill the gaps in the oppressor's psyche. I will repeat myself here, this is clearly a very misguided and deluded way of trying to "heal" oneself on the part of the oppressor. It is so twisted and warped precisely because it is a defense mechanism on their part - it is not conscious, reflected and deliberate. No human would do this with full clarity and understanding of the repercussions. Oppressors can only do this because they themselves have no concept of personal boundaries. This concept is a huge step in the process of healing because people are only able to hold boundaries when they recognize that there is something precious within them. "Hold" is highlighted because this is distinct from being defensive, or offensive with respect to boundaries. The moment the person is able to recognize their own inherent value, they simultaneously recognize the value of all others. A person that can truly appreciate boundaries, also appreciates the boundaries of others and understands that they are the precondition of all personal freedom that we all deeply seek. Abuser does not understand this, narcissists never learned their own value so they expand their boundaries indefinitely, having no regard for others. There also are the imploded victims that are always okay with whatever happens without understanding their buried anger.

This boundary-less condition is what causes enmeshment trauma. Families in which abuse happens, create children with no understanding of their inherent value. This is where the other kind of abuse happens, with no clear distinction between the abuser and the abused. When two adults of equal power meet, and neither of them understands the concept of personal boundaries, abuse is imminent. This is the so-called toxic relationship and where this ventures into the territory of gender wars. In abusive relationships, the victim and the oppressor swap places in different contexts. Calling one a victim and the other an oppressor is adding fuel to the fire, because both of them fulfill both roles. They are also victims of their own parents, usually with no understanding of this fact. It is not at all clear "who started it" because both partners were attracted to each other, symmetrically. A healthy person that understands the value of boundaries would not be attracted to a person that abuses them. It is normal and healthy to postpone having sex in the early stages of relationships and screen for red flags in the other person to see if they understand what it means to be human.

As an example in the political context, I could use these to illustrate my point:

  • the first kind of abuse is China vs Tibet, or Nazis vs Jews
  • the second kind of abuse is the cold war, or Israel vs Palestine.

I am not a political expert, but this sounds about right to me.

I agree that when there is a clear line between the abuser and the victim, like in the first paragraph, external intervention may have a positive effect. Recognizing who is the abuser is helpful to both and isolating him/her to prevent further damage is crucial. In the other example, calling one an abuser and the other the victim is the injustice itself. Seeing the difference between the two cases takes wisdom that is rarely seen in the judicial system. Usually, women are automatically labeled victims and men are automatically labeled as the oppressors. Punishing either one is a crime on the part of the judge because it sends them off further into the spiral of abuse. The right way of getting out of this problem is to make them both see that they are both creating this spiral. This is immensely difficult because it requires coordinated effort and a deliberate decision to trust (to assume good intentions of the other). 

Edited by tsuki

The true heresy is hearsay.

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1 hour ago, mandyjw said:

Gaslighting is a form of vague lying.

The difference is that in identification one looks like the abuser and one looks like the victim, but those judgements are very short sighted. People deny and reflect different behaviors out of fear. Some become aggressive, some become shy and passive in response. 

you go immediately for the healing you seek and you also allow the specific healing you seek to find you. Concepts of abuser and abused prevent this. Healing is wholeness, if you keep defining the separation, you don't allow the healing to occur on its own. 

Great insights here @mandyjw

Perhaps the abuser /gaslighter is resisting healing because it means facing the trauma that is subconsciously influencing and perpetuating the behaviour. 

@tsuki Thanks for these insights. You clearly know your stuff. The points about boundaries are key particularly when it comes to families and how this impacts on the child sense of self and value. I have experience of this. Why do you think the oppressor isn't aware of the need fill the psychological gaps? Presumably trauma /lack of awareness or a sense of control? 

Why do you think judicially women labelled victims in certain cases? I'm aware of lots of court cases where the woman is "blamed" for being the victim,  again a form of gaslighting. 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Surfingthewave said:

Why do you think the oppressor isn't aware of the need fill the psychological gaps? Presumably trauma /lack of awareness or a sense of control? 

This is the survival strategy that we've been built to use. Let me use an analogy.

There are things that the physical body is meant to do, and there are limits to it. There are degrees to how you can move your ankle. You can twist it few degrees around your calf, but don't twist it 180 degrees. Your psyche is like this to some degree. There are things that you can freely experience, but there are things that are too extreme. Seeing your father hit your mother is like twisting your ankle 180 degrees. It will "sprain" your spirit, leave a trauma. So, let's say a soldier sprained his ankle under fire and ignores it to keep moving. This tactic works well short-term, but is lethal long-term. It is very difficult to live your whole life with an untreated sprained ankle, you gotta do this. Moving about with it will make it worse, so you are forced to stop and heal. Psychological trauma is similar. When you are three, you don't have the mental capacity to process the experience of being abused. You have no framework of evil that accounts for the possibility for your father to hit your mother. As a child, your father, by definition, cannot be evil. You fitting in with your family is absolutely crucial if your want to survive. So what is the way out? Denial. You deny that you have seen this and keep on like a soldier. This is a good strategy short term, but lethal long-term. This will haunt you like a sprained ankle you ignore. You have to stop and heal, to go back in memories and actually understand what was happening and express the stored emotions.

The question is, how long can you keep ignoring your sprained spirit until it is unbearable? It depends on the depth of the wound that has been inflicted. Paradoxically, the deeper the wound, the longer you have to deny it. For example, how long does it take for a Jew to process the experience of seeing their loved one raped and killed in a gas chamber? Some wounds are too great to heal in one lifetime, so they are passed on to the next generation. Each generation does some of the work until it can be properly processed. You could say that we are, psychologically, one organism. We are still haunted by the shadows of the world war II.

1 hour ago, Surfingthewave said:

Why do you think judicially women labelled victims in certain cases? I'm aware of lots of court cases where the woman is "blamed" for being the victim,  again a form of gaslighting. 

This is a fault of the judicial system that has no understanding of how trauma works.

I'm guessing that it's because men are more likely to lash out physically against women and bruises are easier to prove, so women are automatically called the victims of oppressors to close cases. In my experience, no more lethal force exists than a woman that knows your triggers and is dead set on making you feel miserable as a man. This is all I'm willing to say before people get triggered.

As for victim blaming, nobody deserves abuse, regardless of what they believe, how they feel, dress, or act. This is the biggest mistake people usually do with their trauma. Your behavior has nothing to do with me. You can speak whatever you want and it has nothing, zero, to do with me. If I feel anything in response to this, these feelings are my own doing and they are telling me things about me. If I feel sexually aroused in response to a girl that is frivolously dressed, this tells me about me. Not about her. She is not a slut because I am aroused. She may have known that I will be aroused when she dresses like this, but my arousal is my thing and gives me no right to do anything. This usually goes over people's heads. People are at the mercy of their own emotions, they can't stand them, so they have to shout or hit when they are angry, to stop feeling angry, etc. 

Edited by tsuki

The true heresy is hearsay.

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59 minutes ago, tsuki said:

I'm guessing that it's because men are more likely to lash out physically against women and bruises are easier to prove, so women are automatically called the victims of oppressors to close cases. In my experience, no more lethal force exists than a woman that knows your triggers and is dead set on making you feel miserable as a man. This is all I'm willing to say before people get triggered.

Rest assured your first post in this thread had already triggered me. By the time I had reached this paragraph, there was nothing you could have said that could possibly trigger me more. I hope you can find help somewhere.

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@commie I will take your words in good faith. All help much appreciated.


The true heresy is hearsay.

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@commie

Sorry if you've been triggered 

@tsuki  A good analogy thanks. There are also other ways children /people can process psychological traumas in relationships as well as denial (mental health/self esteem difficulties etc). 

It's hard to provide evidence for emotional abuse though when we're talking about the judicial system. I think women can feel not heard /etc nothing to do with victimhood and more to do with society today. Seemingly this is getting better though. 

 

Edited by Surfingthewave

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I liked tsuki's answer and response to Preety pertaining to needing reassurance.  This is the first time in all my years here that I have not seen someone act like an emotionally retarded idiot when it comes to what trauma survivors are looking for.

Gaslighting has a certain flavour...

If you are around it too much it will give you a nervous breakdown.

I had an ex who gaslit... he would lie, move objects around the house to signal certain things he wanted to say, used my money, tried to get me kicked out of my home, I have graffiti outside of the for sale sign on my place that is too specific to have been done by a stranger, he would record me on his phone and make up lies to send to the cops when I tried to kick him out and he would make up stories in these to refute, beat his ex with a hammer, recorded us having sex when I was too drunk to consent, used my money on drugs, lived off of me for free and when I tried to kick him out threatened me, and made me feel alone by making me out to be the problem, ect, ect, ect, I'd listen to his childhood sob stories for hours but he never got to know me - I was under the impression if I just changed myself that he would love me so I created a false image of him to fantasize about while dealing with the harsh side.

He did drugs once at my place and talked about his father, turned over in the chair to sit away from me and I could tell he was acting and then the truth hit him and I saw he was just a wimpy little boy - a pitiful little shrimp.  He went into the bathroom and picked at a zit for three hours...  I lost respect and the spell was broken.  Huzzah... I am emotionally upfront and honestly vulnerable - it hits a nerve when I see people play acting.

I'm over it, but that is run of the mill gaslighting behaviour.  I've dealt with it a lot.  What I have noticed is that two people usually gaslight each other.  One is often very subtle, the other then becomes outwardly 'loud' about it, and it goes on in circles.

I don't believe that most people are exempt from these behaviors.  I think that people just lie to themselves and pretend like they don't do it and everyone else does.  And that's why you have like, everyone in the world claiming to have dated a narcissist even though it is a super rare mental disorder, and so many other ones overlap - both in personality disorder and psychotic disorders.

That said a lot of people do gaslight on this forum and the reason for it is that this is a marketplace for people to share ideas with the hopes it will infect another person's mind with something.  Most folks don't want to learn, they just want to teach - and so you have a bunch of folks vying for the spot of being able to be the one to get another poor sob to "see the light".  I can't tell you how many times I have run into "you're doing it wrong" after having a paradigm altering awakening.  Or coming back from a flashback to find it being scrutinized when repressed trauma coming up is the norm for this journey.
It's annoying.

The problem with this place is that people here have issues with vulnerability.  Really.


Don't invest in the virtual.
Focus on yourself.

?

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4 hours ago, tsuki said:

It's been a pleasure to have the opportunity to write it :)

Cool.

I can appreciate the talent you have for bridging deep psychological mechanism/analysis to their outer manifestation in terms of politics and power dynamics. This type of interdisciplinarity should be used more often by academics and political pundit because they are particularly useful for putting causality back into perspective and soften the resentment which fester from conflicts. :)

4 hours ago, tsuki said:

This paragraph contains a point that I've seen circulating many times and it ventures into the dangerous territory of gender wars. I know you well enough to know that you don't do this intentionally and I know myself well enough to recognize that I'm sensitive to this. With this disclaimer laid up front, let me make my point.

I don't think I have made in this thread any comment related to gender wars. My description of gaslighting was supposed to be applied to all cases where gaslighting can occur.

But if you let me comment your stance on my predisposition to bring "gender wars" on the table, I would like to precise something: I don't chose to bring gender war. Gender war is what occurs when I talk about my experience, my feelings and my perspective on thing and this perspective is fought back and sometimes strictly denied/invalidated.

Gender war to me is also a misnomer, because I don't think the word is broad enough. The confrontation seems to me like the reintegration on the meta level of the repressed Divine Feminine energy in the Divine Masculine energy, which translate into you and I talking about how we can respect the integrity of both duality through its diverse manifestations.

I remember that you posted in the last months a very interesting video about toxic masculinity, which tells me that you have experienced youurself how stuff commonly perceived as feminine are generally disagarded or perceive as inferior in society. Which is why people tend to have a bias toward assigned masculine behavior.

This is the energetic flow I am talking about.

4 hours ago, tsuki said:

When it comes to the oppressor vs the victim, there is a distinction to be made here. There is abuse where things are clear cut, like the slave owner vs the slave, or parents vs children, or China's Uighur reeducation camps. In these instances, the abuser holds power over the victim's life and exercises it to mutilate their spirit. From the POV of the abuser, the purpose is to "teach" them the "healthy" way of living so that victims would "fit in" with the oppressor. In effect, this kind of abuse is about making the other person into a psychological crutch that serves to fill the gaps in the oppressor's psyche. I will repeat myself here, this is clearly a very misguided and deluded way of trying to "heal" oneself on the part of the oppressor. It is so twisted and warped precisely because it is a defense mechanism on their part - it is not conscious, reflected and deliberate. No human would do this with full clarity and understanding of the repercussions. Oppressors can only do this because they themselves have no concept of personal boundaries. This concept is a huge step in the process of healing because people are only able to hold boundaries when they recognize that there is something precious within them. "Hold" is highlighted because this is distinct from being defensive, or offensive with respect to boundaries. The moment the person is able to recognize their own inherent value, they simultaneously recognize the value of all others. A person that can truly appreciate boundaries, also appreciates the boundaries of others and understands that they are the precondition of all personal freedom that we all deeply seek. Abuser does not understand this, narcissists never learned their own value so they expand their boundaries indefinitely, having no regard for others. There also are the imploded victims that are always okay with whatever happens without understanding their buried anger.

I have nothing to add here because I totally agree with it.  That said, thanks for verbalizing this so cogently. 

4 hours ago, tsuki said:

This boundary-less condition is what causes enmeshment trauma. Families in which abuse happens, create children with no understanding of their inherent value. This is where the other kind of abuse happens, with no clear distinction between the abuser and the abused. When two adults of equal power meet, and neither of them understands the concept of personal boundaries, abuse is imminent. 

Yes. I would say that in other word, lack of healthy love (as of respecting someone else's integrity as much as your own) and compassion (feelings someone's inner world) is pathologically lacking.

4 hours ago, tsuki said:

This is the so-called toxic relationship and where this ventures into the territory of gender wars. In abusive relationships, the victim and the oppressor swap places in different contexts. Calling one a victim and the other an oppressor is adding fuel to the fire, because both of them fulfill both roles. They are also victims of their own parents, usually with no understanding of this fact. It is not at all clear "who started it" because both partners were attracted to each other, symmetrically. A healthy person that understands the value of boundaries would not be attracted to a person that abuses them. It is normal and healthy to postpone having sex in the early stages of relationships and screen for red flags in the other person to see if they understand what it means to be human.

As an example in the political context, I could use these to illustrate my point:

  • the first kind of abuse is China vs Tibet, or Nazis vs Jews
  • the second kind of abuse is the cold war, or Israel vs Palestine.

I am not a political expert, but this sounds about right to me.

It seems like you are talking about intergenerational trauma, which I totally agree about and I definitely can appreciate the value you give them because I've been also obsessed with those lately. Humanity has been into a circle of hurt since the dawn of time. I also don't believe we do have much freewill until we cultivate more consciousness, so can even get to the point of breaking these patterns.

But when it comes through uncivil actions (no matter how they developed in the first place), we reframe them through a specific, practical, analysis framework. And this canvas gives us labels ; perpetrator and victim. I just think we need it for practical reason.If we would look at the world through such a meta analysis, I do think it would be counterproductive.

Because what you need to do to decide who is a victim and who is a perpetrator in a specific dynamic is to gauge who has more power over the other at a T time and is abusing it to the point that it disturb the other's ability to function most.

But I also agree that most of the time the victim will also abuse the perpetrator as well in some way. I just think in most case it's rather marginal

5 hours ago, tsuki said:

I agree that when there is a clear line between the abuser and the victim, like in the first paragraph, external intervention may have a positive effect. Recognizing who is the abuser is helpful to both and isolating him/her to prevent further damage is crucial. In the other example, calling one an abuser and the other the victim is the injustice itself. Seeing the difference between the two cases takes wisdom that is rarely seen in the judicial system. Usually, women are automatically labeled victims and men are automatically labeled as the oppressors. Punishing either one is a crime on the part of the judge because it sends them off further into the spiral of abuse. The right way of getting out of this problem is to make them both see that they are both creating this spiral. This is immensely difficult because it requires coordinated effort and a deliberate decision to trust (to assume good intentions of the other). 

I agree that the retributive justice system is BS. As for the rest, ambiguous cases of gaslighting were not as much in my mind than text book gaslighting.

That said,  I'm not so sure of your stance about women being "automatically labeled victims and men oppressor". To me, this particular sentence is an exaggeration and translate more of an impression than a fact.

Mind you, I have taken a criminology lecture as part of my curriculum and when it came to infractions, male are perpetrator to nearly 80-90% of the criminal and delictual activity reported. This probably comes from emotional suppression, the encouragement of more aggressive behavior, the pressure of being made the provider and stuff like that.

But sexist bias have nothing to do with this stat given above ^. It's just what it is. I'm not saying by that that men are automatically oppressor and female oppressed. Each cases need to be assessed individually without biases. But men in general are ending more often in the court room for illegal activities than women do. I also believe that maybe on the reason for it is that a woman's way of being oppressive has more to do with emotional leverage and manipulation, which aren't necessarily detected as legal offenses.


Association with the wise is the root cause for obliterating all misery. -  Tripura Rahasya

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1 hour ago, Etherial Cat said:

I don't think I have made in this thread any comment related to gender wars. My description of gaslighting was supposed to be applied to all cases where gaslighting can occur.

But if you let me comment your stance on my predisposition to bring "gender wars" on the table, I would like to precise something: I don't chose to bring gender war. Gender war is what occurs when I talk about my experience, my feelings and my perspective on thing and this perspective is fought back and sometimes strictly denied/invalidated. (Emphasis added)

The emphasized portion shows why I felt that bringing gender wars up was appropriate in the context of gasligting. The paragraph that I quoted previously did not mention gender wars explicitly, but I connected it nonetheless. 

2 hours ago, Etherial Cat said:

Gender war to me is also a misnomer, because I don't think the word is broad enough. The confrontation seems to me like the reintegration on the meta level of the repressed Divine Feminine energy in the Divine Masculine energy, which translate into you and I talking about how we can respect the integrity of both duality through its diverse manifestations.

I remember that you posted in the last months a very interesting video about toxic masculinity, which tells me that you have experienced youurself how stuff commonly perceived as feminine are generally disagarded or perceive as inferior in society. Which is why people tend to have a bias toward assigned masculine behavior.

This is the energetic flow I am talking about.

My experience of the Divine Feminine and Divine Masculine is limited to my own efforts to become a whole, integrated, person that has a broad spectrum of human possibilities. I do not understand it on a meta level, so I do not know how it relates to the phenomenon that I previously called gender wars. I have not studied the feminist theory, so I don't know the extent to which culture suppresses femininity. I view this repression more as a personal dynamic that exists within many or all individuals, also due to generational trauma.

I know from my own experience that the lack of a proper relationship with my mother has negatively impacted my ability to connect with my feminine energy. This is why men are hyper-masculine and display aggressive dominance. I am not a women and I know this only theoretically, but the same dynamic exists in women, where their relationship with their fathers would impact their ability to connect with masculine energy. Given that Boomers are pretty traumatized, it is not all that uncommon that both of the parents are terrible at raising children. This gives a reason for the dominance of the masculine over the feminine that we see today: overly submissive, dependent, women and overly dominant, childish men.

In all of this, I am kind of skeptical of this theory because it seems to explain too many things too neatly. This is why I also want to hear your story and how you see the current situation via your meta-lens.

2 hours ago, Etherial Cat said:

But when it comes through uncivil actions (no matter how they developed in the first place), we reframe them through a specific, practical, analysis framework. And this canvas gives us labels ; perpetrator and victim. I just think we need it for practical reason.If we would look at the world through such a meta analysis, I do think it would be counterproductive.

Because what you need to do to decide who is a victim and who is a perpetrator in a specific dynamic is to gauge who has more power over the other at a T time and is abusing it to the point that it disturb the other's ability to function most.

But I also agree that most of the time the victim will also abuse the perpetrator as well in some way. I just think in most case it's rather marginal

My personal experience seems to contradict yours, but I have not studied the world at large so I may be biased. I think that ambivalent abuse is at least as common as the definite one and introducing absolute labels creates more confusion. This is fine, I appreciate your input.

2 hours ago, Etherial Cat said:

That said,  I'm not so sure of your stance about women being "automatically labeled victims and men oppressor". To me, this particular sentence is an exaggeration and translate more of an impression than a fact.

Mind you, I have taken a criminology lecture as part of my curriculum and when it came to infractions, male are perpetrator to nearly 80-90% of the criminal and delictual activity reported. This probably comes from emotional suppression, the encouragement of more aggressive behavior, the pressure of being made the provider and stuff like that.

When talking about women being labeled as victims, I was referring to divorces. It is true that it is not a fact but an impression, I have not gone through a divorce and have not studied them too much.

I am not denying the fact that men are more violent and commit more violent crimes. I may have overreached in giving my opinions here.

2 hours ago, Etherial Cat said:

I can appreciate the talent you have for bridging deep psychological mechanism/analysis to their outer manifestation in terms of politics and power dynamics. This type of interdisciplinarity should be used more often by academics and political pundit because they are particularly useful for putting causality back into perspective and soften the resentment which fester from conflicts. :)

I'm glad to hear that xD I'm pretty self-conscious about giving my opinions on politics. I find that people are rarely willing to listen when presented views don't reinforce theirs. 

@Surfingthewave Thank you for starting this topic. This is one of the best discussions that I participated in on this forum.


The true heresy is hearsay.

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12 hours ago, Keyhole said:

I had an ex who gaslit...  I have graffiti outside of the for sale sign on my place that is too specific to have been done by a stranger, he would record me on his phone and make up lies to send to the cops when I tried to kick him out and he would make up stories in these to refute, beat his ex with a hammer, recorded us having sex when I was too drunk to consent, used my money on drugs, lived off of me for free and when I tried to kick him out threatened me, and made me feel alone by making me out to be the problem, ect, ect, ect, I'd listen to his childhood sob stories for hours but he never got to know me - I was under the impression if I just changed myself that he would love me so I created a false image of him to fantasize about while dealing with the harsh side.

I'm over it, but that is run of the mill gaslighting behaviour.  I've dealt with it a lot.  What I have noticed is that two people usually gaslight each other.  One is often very subtle, the other then becomes outwardly 'loud' about it, and it goes on in circles.

I don't believe that most people are exempt from these behaviors.  I think that people just lie to themselves and pretend like they don't do it and everyone else does.  And that's why you have like, everyone in the world claiming to have dated a narcissist even though it is a super rare mental disorder, and so many other ones overlap - both in personality disorder and psychotic disorders.

That said a lot of people do gaslight on this forum and the reason for it is that this is a marketplace for people to share ideas with the hopes it will infect another person's mind with something.  Most folks don't want to learn, they just want to teach - and so you have a bunch of folks vying for the spot of being able to be the one to get another poor sob to "see the light".  I can't tell you how many times I have run into "you're doing it wrong" after having a paradigm altering awakening.  Or coming back from a flashback to find it being scrutinized when repressed trauma coming up is the norm for this journey.
It's annoying.

The problem with this place is that people here have issues with vulnerability.  Really.

Thanks for sharing. I can relate to your story, it was 15 or so years ago but I remember having this real sense of fear on leaving. This was before I started all the consciousness work. 

I've started to realise the importance of breaking down and removing labels. Who are we to judge who's  narcissistic/had mental health problems / trauma or not. Part of this work is the self realisation we are all just an assortment of feelings, thoughts, sensations, stories and memories, some memories are so traumatic it can seep into how we express ourselves and connect with others in relationships. Often intergenerationally as @tsuki describes. 

I agree with you about the forum which is why it needed calling out. I also feel there are some real enlightened folk on here so it's knowing the difference. Who wants to be right all the time? The world would be boring if we all were! But it's about knowing and self reflection. Lots of folk like the sense of self and feedback you can get from teaching others particularly when going through difficult things yourself. 

You've nailed it when you talk about vulnerability. It's hard for a lot of us to be vulnerable but there is so much strength in it and it is a massive part of this work. Have you heard of the work of Brene Brown? She is making waves in the world of expressing vulnerability. 

Edited by Surfingthewave

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such a great and well taken conversation. thank you all - my heart is shining.

free flowing and not-sustaining emotional and mental states in relationships are huge spiritual work. it is a vibrational, senseful navigating between I-identifying and we-identifying. both go hand in hand, radically relating all surroundings and environment to oneself by initially loosing the unconscious chain of thoughts. new beginnings are the key word.

when there is consciously no conscious beginning of thoughts to this recent moment known and memorized, there only remains a necessity to switch in re-identification and self-realization. it is raw and compulsive in a releasing sense. action appears.
my initial point to ground in this vibrational navigating, is to know that all thoughts are really existing and are also imagining reality right now. how stupid. then there is always the clear sense of knowing that both of us in relationship are just one emotion. by taking this emotion as a seed of new beginnings the surroundings are spontaneously and automatically recontextualized and truly recognized - the persons, the room, the time. a huge spectrum of possibilites and true necessarities opens. 

just talking out of subjective experience.

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16 hours ago, juni said:

free flowing and not-sustaining emotional and mental states in relationships are huge spiritual work.

then there is always the clear sense of knowing that both of us in relationship are just one emotion. by taking this emotion as a seed of new beginnings the surroundings are spontaneously and automatically recontextualized and truly recognized

@juni Absolutely. Thank you for your beautifully written words. 

This perspective is very loving, harmonious and ultimately the basis of enlightenment. 

Yes rather than the view- "what can I get out of this relationship" the more conscious you are it hopefully should be how can we conquer this precious world together with this powerful love we hold. 

Edited by Surfingthewave

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