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tuckerwphotography

Green Meme: All perspectives are equally valid?

43 posts in this topic

@Gesundheit @neutralempty "We have found in our data that Individualists may or may not have a communal bend. Some turn towards their own meaning making and exploring their own minds and are less concerned with diversity issues." 

^ This is exactly what I was getting at with the two camps of Green (Political and Spiritual). Seems like there's two paths through the stage which overlap greatly but differ in how they approach the cultural/social aspects. 

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39 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

Y'all should really study something beyond Spiral Dynamics, or else you're gonna be left behind.

Agreed. Spiral Dynamics is a great starting point, but the model has limitations, and sloppy applications of it can be used to reinforce cultural stereotypes (assuming that everyone at Stage Green is a socialist, or a hippie, or that Stage Blue has to be a God fearing religious zealot, etc, etc).

Even when applied properly and with nuance, one of the main limitations of Spiral Dynamics is that it attempts to merge several dimensions of development down into one Stage or Meme. It doesn't make a clear enough distinction between the complexity of someone cognitive capabilities (a  person's mental 'hardware', if you will) and the cultural code (or 'software') that they operate from. Spiral Dynamics fails to incorporate how people can either out-complex, or be outcomplexed by, the SD-Stage they're centered at.

Consider a 16 year old girl brought up by hippie parents and roughly at SD-stage Green. And let's compare her to someone like Aristotle, a deep and complex thinker who happened to be at SD-Stage Blue. Which one is at a higher stage of Development? The hippie girl relates in a very shallow way to a more complex stage of Development, while Aristotle relates in a more deeper, more complex way to a much simpler and less nuanced SD-Stage. Which of the two is more developed according to Spiral Dynamics? The fact that it doesn't give a clear answer is a demonstration of some of its limitations.

Probably much too complex to cover in this thread, but works by people like Ken WIlber and Hanzi Freinacht combine Spiral Dynamics with other developmental models to arrive at a more nuanced and complete developmental system.

Edited by DocWatts

The problem is one of opposition between subjective and objective points of view. 

So either the objective conception of the world is incomplete, or the subjective involves illusions that should be rejected.  - Thomas Nagel

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23 minutes ago, tuckerwphotography said:

@Gesundheit @neutralempty "We have found in our data that Individualists may or may not have a communal bend. Some turn towards their own meaning making and exploring their own minds and are less concerned with diversity issues." 

^ This is exactly what I was getting at with the two camps of Green (Political and Spiritual). Seems like there's two paths through the stage which overlap greatly but differ in how they approach the cultural/social aspects. 

It is very easy for pharmacompanies to sell half-assed medicine with half truths. This pressure is important for the quality of the products you will receive, because I guarantee you orange doesn't give a damn.

Whiops, wrong quote.

Edited by neutralempty

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56 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

This issue is unclear in Spiral Dynamics. The 9 Stages Of Ego Development addresses it better as a conflict between values and cognitive development that happens at the pluralist/individualist level.

Here, a screenshot from Cook-Greuter's paper talking exactly about this particular issue:

IMG_20210120_194942.jpg

Y'all should really study something beyond Spiral Dynamics, or else you're gonna be left behind.

Great share! U da best <3


Enter their minds, and you’ll find the judges you’re so afraid of – and how judiciously they judge themselves.

- Marcus Aurelius

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19 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

Even when applied properly and with nuance, one of the main limitations of Spiral Dynamics is that it attempts to merge several dimensions of development down into one Stage or Meme. It doesn't make a clear enough distinction between the complexity of someone cognitive capabilities (a  person's mental 'hardware', if you will) and the cultural code (or 'software') that they operate from. Spiral Dynamics fails to incorporate how people can either out-complex, or be outcomplexed by, the SD-Stage they're centered at.
 

Thanks Doc. You're totally right and that's why it's important to hold the model loosely. One of the scariest parts of teaching people spiral dynamics is seeing how they naturally use it to judge and pigeon hole other people.


Enter their minds, and you’ll find the judges you’re so afraid of – and how judiciously they judge themselves.

- Marcus Aurelius

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2 hours ago, tuckerwphotography said:

"all perspectives of the world are equally valid."

No human can think this. 

Entering the domain of consciousness work. Even if you were "enlightened" this quote wouldn't contain the truth. 


"Piercing through the whitewash will turn into the truth someday
I want to keep believing in it stubbornly; It’s just my faith. The absolute truth."

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The reality is that extremely few people understand post-modernism.

Most Green are not fully post-modern because that's a very academic stance.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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30 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The reality is that extremely few people understand post-modernism.

Most Green are not fully post-modern because that's a very academic stance.

Isn't it also true that most people in general aren't going ro relate in a deep way to the epistemological and ontological core of thier Cultural Code?

Just like how most people at SD-Orange have only a vague idea of what Modernism is, how the Scientific method works, and what The Enlightenment was all about. And how SD-Blue people will often be ignorant about basic foundational aspects of the culture they esteem so much.

As cultural codes become more and more complex, the only way these ideas can become widespread is if they are flattened and simplified in a way so that ordinary people can relate to them. This seems like an ironclad practical necessity for ideas to propagate throughout society, and for new paradigms to take hold.

Edited by DocWatts

The problem is one of opposition between subjective and objective points of view. 

So either the objective conception of the world is incomplete, or the subjective involves illusions that should be rejected.  - Thomas Nagel

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1 hour ago, Yali said:

@Leo Gura

I feel like most people are Green in name only.

 

@Yali These types of comments are unproductive unless you provide more context and explanation. For example, what would distinguish someone from true Green to in-name-only, from your perspective?

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@tuckerwphotography

It's possible to self-identify as an SJW and still carry latent, racist tendencies. Racism is mostly unconscious.

How do you know you're not racist? You don't.

 

 

 

Edited by Yali

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6 hours ago, DocWatts said:

Isn't it also true that most people in general aren't going ro relate in a deep way to the epistemological and ontological core of thier Cultural Code?

Most of this stuff is implicit and subtle, which is why it's difficult to work with. The majority of anyone's understanding of anything is implicit, not explicit.

In practice people navigate life through holistic gut instincts and vague intuitions.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Most of this stuff is implicit and subtle, which is why it's difficult to work with. The majority of anyone's understanding of anything is implicit, not explicit.

In practice people navigate life through holistic gut instincts and vague intuitions.

That makes alot of sense. In addition to this, it does seem like there's also an explicit process where complex ideas get flattened and simplified enough to become paradigmatic. In our day these are the public intellectuals (take your pick), and in ages past these would have probably been priests, shamans, etc. I suppose creative types would also fill this role as well.


The problem is one of opposition between subjective and objective points of view. 

So either the objective conception of the world is incomplete, or the subjective involves illusions that should be rejected.  - Thomas Nagel

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14 hours ago, Yali said:

@tuckerwphotography

It's possible to self-identify as an SJW and still carry latent, racist tendencies. Racism is mostly unconscious.

How do you know you're not racist? You don't.

@Yali Are you suggesting that to be “true” Green one must never have any racist thoughts? If so, that feels like an arbitrary and unrealistic bar. I have all kinds of crazy thoughts float through my consciousness...it doesn’t mean that I act on them nor identify with them. I’m not sure what your point has to do with SD. 

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3 hours ago, tuckerwphotography said:

@Yali that feels like an arbitrary and unrealistic bar

@tuckerwphotography

how?

Green isn't supposed to be racist.

Edited by Yali

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39 minutes ago, Yali said:

@tuckerwphotography

how?

Green isn't supposed to be racist.

What is racism? How do you define the term? Does having racist thoughts make one racist? 

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@Yali

@tuckerwphotography

Pretty sure Jordan Peele already made a movie about just this subject. It would be silly to assume that racism doesn't exist at all in Green, the forms it takes will just be more subtle and implicit (rather than explicit) as one goes from Blue to Orange to Green, often attributable to ignorance or misunderstanding rather than malice. It will also become less and less prevalent (though not necessarily gone entirely) as one ascends up the Spiral.

While Green will tend to not be explicitly racist, it can still be condescending in ways that can be considered racist (ie assuming you know someone's social or political beliefs because they belong to a certain group).

Get_Out_poster.png

Edited by DocWatts

The problem is one of opposition between subjective and objective points of view. 

So either the objective conception of the world is incomplete, or the subjective involves illusions that should be rejected.  - Thomas Nagel

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21 minutes ago, tuckerwphotography said:

@Yali Ok so I guess everybody is racist by that definition.

@tuckerwphotography

wait what?

Edited by Yali

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