How to use psychedelics to reach permanent enlightenment?

[PurpleTree]

On 10.8.2020 at 5:44 PM, Mirko said:

I was using them specifically for spiritual purposes. But many times I deceived myself when using them:

In the middle of trip I was totally sure I finally cured my social anxiety, yet after trip social anxiety came back.

In the middle of trip I was totally sure I finally cured my depression, yet after trip depression came back.

The same with stuttering - I thought I cured my stuttering in the middle of trip, yet stuttered after trip.

The same with heart chakra - I was 100% sure I opened my heart chakra permanently in the middle of the trip - but that was later seen as a self-deception.

I've read of many people who apparently did heal those things and others.

 

[The0Self]

The premise of this thread is a complete misunderstanding.

Near-enlightenment is like a lucid dream, but instead of running around excitedly, there's just a role and there's the absolute obviousness that anything behind that role (a person) is completely full of shit, because there is no person. Ever felt a peculiar trustworthiness and unthreatened-ness when spending time around someone who seems to experience shame a lot? It's because they are nearer to enlightenment than the average person. Enlightenment, for many, is when that feeling of being full of shit gets so all-encompassing it completely collapses. Basically cosmic suicide. No person would seek enlightenment if they knew what is was. It's the utterly complete end of good and bad, and the beginning of "is." Sound good? It actually will to some. It did to me. It actually makes sense superficially that "the end of good and bad" could somehow be "good" but of course, that's a most obvious contradiction and impossibility.

I'd recommend love and consciousness. I would never recommend enlightenment. Not that enlightenment is bad, it's just not good, and therefore it's both pointless to recommend, and just altogether pointless. Nothing changes.

[actualizing25]

@The0Self Then why is enlightenment always (even in all religious traditions) portrayed as things like heaven, joy, happiness, peace etc.? All the religions are based on a big lie you say? All the mystical spiritual and religious traditions are lying? cmon man.

[The0Self]

3 minutes ago, actualizing25 said:

@The0Self Then why is enlightenment always (even in all religious traditions) portrayed as things like heaven, joy, happiness, peace etc.? All the religions are based on a big lie you say? All the mystical spiritual and religious traditions are lying? cmon man.

The only ones describing it in that way are seekers of enlightenment.

[electroBeam]

9 minutes ago, actualizing25 said:

@The0Self Then why is enlightenment always (even in all religious traditions) portrayed as things like heaven, joy, happiness, peace etc.? All the religions are based on a big lie you say? All the mystical spiritual and religious traditions are lying? cmon man.

If you're doing enlightenment work to get heaven, joy, happiness, peace, etc. Then you aren't doing enlightenment work, you're doing personal development work, but calling it enlightenment work to make your ego feel good.

You only do enlightenment to know what's true. To discover the truth. The truth may be hell, it may be bad, it may suck like hell. It doesn't matter what the fuck it is, you do it because knowing what the truth IS is important of itself, regardless of how good it feels, regardless if its heaven or hell, regardless if it benefits you or not. 

[actualizing25]

@The0Self All the spiritual gurus and religious leaders like Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed or Spira, Tolle, Mooji etc. all reached enlightenment and describe it as joy, peace and happiness. They are no longer seeker.

[actualizing25]

@electroBeam To want to feel happy, or at peace comes from ego.

To know the truth comes from ego.

Everyone is doing something because he is thinking that this thing will make him happy, be it knowing the truth or somethingelse.

Like Rupert says, enlightenment is the most direct way to happiness.

[The0Self]

10 minutes ago, actualizing25 said:

@The0Self All the spiritual gurus and religious leaders like Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed or Spira, Tolle, Mooji etc. all reached enlightenment and describe it as joy, peace and happiness. They are no longer seeker.

It's a transcendent happiness that you in your current state would not recognize as happiness, because there's a self that wants to feel good. They are no longer seekers because they aren't there anymore.

[electroBeam]

4 minutes ago, actualizing25 said:

@electroBeam To want to feel happy, or at peace comes from ego.

To know the truth comes from ego.

Everyone is doing something because he is thinking that this thing will make him happy, be it knowing the truth or somethingelse.

Like Rupert says, enlightenment is the most direct way to happiness.

You're right but knowing the truth for truth's sake is the most expansive desire out of all desires, because knowing the truth allows, accepts and includes happiness, sadness, anger, hell, heaven, nazis, bitter pills, sweetness, counter intuitive truths, going backwards, accepting your ego is wrong, accepting you can't ever even know the truth, being open minded to absolutely everything, including things like heaven isn't enlightenment, etc. Acceptance of EVERYTHING, including things you don't like, like sadness and bitter truths, is the key to enlightenment.

Chasing enlightenment to be happy or to be in heaven is too limiting as you'll not include EVERYTHING, you'll just include what you like and therefore will never get there. Which is most people on this site, and most people in spiritual groups beyond this site.

[The0Self]

18 minutes ago, actualizing25 said:

To know the truth comes from ego.

Yes, to want to know the truth does, in a sense, come from ego. But the ego never actually wants to know the truth (it just says it does), simply because the ego is falsehood. That's why the only way to know the truth is actually not a way at all, because as soon as you know the truth, you are no longer there. You were the lie. You never actually get to know the truth.

18 minutes ago, actualizing25 said:

Like Rupert says, enlightenment is the most direct way to happiness.

And maybe you aren't aware, but Rupert Spira defines happiness as "the absence of the sense of lack." If you want ecstasy and bliss, do jhana practice. Some talent may be needed but with enough diligence and skill you'll be able to reach states of bliss beyond anything you could've ever imagined. That's not enlightenment though.

Edited November 1, 2020 by The0Self

[actualizing25]

@The0Self They are there, but not identified with what is there.

[actualizing25]

@electroBeam You can chase enlightenment for whatever reason. The destination is the same regardless of your motivation. You can chase it to escape suffering or you can chase it to know the truth. Two different paths which will eventually lead you the same place.

[The0Self]

4 minutes ago, actualizing25 said:

@The0Self They are there, but not identified with what is there.

If nobody is identified with what is there, nobody is really there. This is really just semantics though. I've already spoken the truth.

[actualizing25]

@The0Self Doesnt these states of bliss and ecstasy come from enlightened states?

[The0Self]

27 minutes ago, actualizing25 said:

@The0Self Doesnt these states of bliss and ecstasy come from enlightened states?

Depends on what you mean by enlightened states. Jhana 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 and the unfabricated (nirvana; end of time) might aptly be called enlightened states. Unity consciousness, when experienced, will pretty much invariably be assumed to be the goal of the spiritual path when it is made lasting (it pretty much never lasts). Same with jhana 3 and higher, oftentimes. What I mean by enlightenment is the complete collapse of the real sense of here/there, now/then, I/you, distance, good/bad, personal doer-ship, and reality in any sense whatsoever, to the point where it is inconceivable that any self that is separate from everything could "come back," because it's recognized it wasn't actually ever there -- the only thing that seems to be able to bring this about is absolute egoic suicide. Perhaps there is a pleasant path that somehow leads to it, but it would only be pleasant by virtue of doing extremely pleasant things in meditation, etc. The enlightenment would happen completely in spite of the pleasantness. The pleasantness only serving to make the process less painful. I can imagine some may not only get enlightened pain free, but filled with bliss -- that would be due to profound meditation skill. No idea if it's true though. And of course, no one gets enlightenment.

Edited November 1, 2020 by The0Self

[electroBeam]

35 minutes ago, actualizing25 said:

@electroBeam You can chase enlightenment for whatever reason. The destination is the same regardless of your motivation. You can chase it to escape suffering or you can chase it to know the truth. Two different paths which will eventually lead you the same place.

Enlightenment isn't about escaping suffering  There's no such thing as suffering. 

[actualizing25]

@The0Self ok thanks for your answers. So if you want to escape suffering and experience deep peace and happiness, you dont recommend the path of enlightenment? which path do you recommend then?thanks

[Moksha]

@The0Self You are describing conceptual enlightenment, which is a contradiction. Enlightenment is nonconceptual. It cannot be named, and can only be experienced directly. At best, people can be it and point others toward it, but it is ultimately a personal journey of Self-realization.

It is being Consciousness itself. It is beautiful, unitive, spacious, holy light. The Buddha describes it as the end of suffering, because suffering is resistance to what is. Enlightenment is the end of resistance.

Edited November 1, 2020 by Moksha

[The0Self]

2 minutes ago, actualizing25 said:

@The0Self ok thanks for your answers. So if you want to escape suffering and experience deep peace and happiness, you dont recommend the path of enlightenment? which path do you recommend then?thanks

The path of enlightenment is un-recommendable, not only because there isn't really a path to truth (which is all there is), but because you'll embark upon it against your will if you become all too conscious of your own fraudulent nature as a separate individual. For happiness, peace, meaning, and exploration, I guess I'd have to recommend Rob Burbea's Seeing That Frees. Unbelievable happiness is possible with his approach. I get butterflies in my stomach just thinking about that guy. Or any self-love guru's approaches -- Anna Brown; Matt Kahn; etc. Also, keep on following Leo. His understanding is incredible. And expanding. For fulfilment as a person, the best approach is probably radical practicality. Figure out what you want, and figure out how you're gonna do it. Look for things to be grateful for, keep a radically open mind, and look for miracles. Everything is a miracle. See what you can genuinely see as a miracle now, and keep going further. Never stop. You'd think the more conscious you become, the more bliss you'd feel, but really you just feel more fulfilment, and as far as your mood goes, it may just increasingly consist of gratitude. And perhaps sadness, but maybe that's just me. Even before I started waking up I saw the beauty in sadness more than I think is normal.

[The0Self]

21 minutes ago, Moksha said:

@The0Self You are describing conceptual enlightenment, which is a contradiction. Enlightenment is nonconceptual. It cannot be named, and can only be experienced directly. At best, people can be it and point others toward it, but it is ultimately a personal journey of Self-realization.

It is being Consciousness itself. It is beautiful, unitive, spacious, holy light. The Buddha describes it as the end of suffering, because suffering is resistance to what is. Enlightenment is the end of resistance.

Basically agree. Can't describe it but it can be attempted.

Edited November 1, 2020 by The0Self