Do You Really Want Enlightenment?

[Patrick]

@abrakamowse

1 hour ago, abrakamowse said:

Anyway...  there's no one to become enlightened so... there's also no one to become depressed or see the experience as hollow.

True

1 hour ago, abrakamowse said:

Yeah, it's just that. It can sound hollow from the ego perspective but once you are on the other side means freedom.

Are you speaking from experience?

[abrakamowse]

4 minutes ago, Patrick said:

@abrakamowse

True

Are you speaking from experience?

Well, I could finally "see" that there's no one doing anything. But I didn't have a non-duality experience. They say when you see there's no one there doing anything or controlling anything, everything begins to fall by itself.  But really, once you know there's no one, anything else matters.

You don't search anymore, there's no thirst to read more, you just let things happen. And it's really nice.

Some people prefer to call it self-realization. I think that's more appropriate.

Edited July 21, 2016 by abrakamowse

[electroBeam]

@charlie2dogs Yes you're right, I don't know, hence why I said that choosing enlightenment is choosing to go on a panet you know nothing about.

"are you telling me that all these opinions on this forum about what enlightenment is dont mean anything?" Yes I am. You can't explain an experience most people haven't experienced before, so they really don't.

 

But you seem to be saying that pursuing enlightenment is futile. I don't know why people on this forum make that assertion. Plenty of people on this planet don't pursue enlightenment, and all of those people are not enlightened.

Buddhist on the other hand do pursue enlightenment, and most of them are much more self actualized then the general public. 

[charlie2dogs]

2 minutes ago, electroBeam said:

@charlie2dogs Yes you're right, I don't know, hence why I said that choosing enlightenment is choosing to go on a panet you know nothing about.

"are you telling me that all these opinions on this forum about what enlightenment is dont mean anything?" Yes I am. You can't explain an experience most people haven't experienced before, so they really don't.

 

But you seem to be saying that pursuing enlightenment is futile. I don't know why people on this forum make that assertion. Plenty of people on this planet don't pursue enlightenment, and all of those people are not enlightened.

Buddhist on the other hand do pursue enlightenment, and most of them are much more self actualized then the general public. 

your objective should not be seeking enlightenment, first of all because the only ones who know what it is, is those who are, so why would you choose to seek something you know nothing about. 

 

[charlie2dogs]

Just now, charlie2dogs said:

your objective should not be seeking enlightenment, first of all because the only ones who know what it is, is those who are, so why would you choose to seek something you know nothing about. 

 

im not so sure that it is enlightenment that buddhist seek, maybe it is more about liberation from suffering is what they seek,  enlightenment is not something that you can seek and find.  enlightenment only happens to a very few and those few, their consciousness has evolved to a state of self realization,  and then the term enlightenment or self realization may be applied to their new state of being,

[charlie2dogs]

Just now, charlie2dogs said:

im not so sure that it is enlightenment that buddhist seek, maybe it is more about liberation from suffering is what they seek,  enlightenment is not something that you can seek and find.  enlightenment only happens to a very few and those few, their consciousness has evolved to a state of self realization,  and then the term enlightenment or self realization may be applied to their new state of being,

so what are those who are seeking enlightenment doing to get it?  meditating? on what?

[charlie2dogs]

1 minute ago, charlie2dogs said:

so what are those who are seeking enlightenment doing to get it?  meditating? on what?

enlightenment is a real state of being, but not by the human being identity.  so if the human identity cannot become enlightened, then who can?

[Mal]

48 minutes ago, charlie2dogs said:

enlightenment is a real state of being, but not by the human being identity.  so if the human identity cannot become enlightened, then who can?

I thought about this for a while, and discovered that it would be impossible for me, or any human being to understand what this means.  Even non-dualistic thought cannot comprehend what you are pointing to.

This is literally beyond the capacity for any human brain to think about.

The only thing I can fathom is that consciousness is not merely located in the brain, it's everywhere? 

Edited July 21, 2016 by Mal

[charlie2dogs]

50 minutes ago, Mal said:

I thought about this for a while, and discovered that it would be impossible for me, or any human being to understand what this means.  Even non-dualistic thought cannot comprehend what you are pointing to.

This is literally beyond the capacity for any human brain to think about.

The only thing I can fathom is that consciousness is not merely located in the brain, it's everywhere? 

consciousness created your body it encompasses the entire body.  the body is a reflection of consciousness, sickness, disease, problems all begin within consciousness because of what is allowed to take root there before it is manifest in the physical body.

[Leo Gura]

You guys take Jed way too seriously. He over-exaggerates a lot for dramatic effect.

The fact is that experiencing the truth, first-hand, is the greatest experience you can have. There's nothing else like it.

The only problem is that getting there isn't easy.

[cetus]

16 hours ago, Patrick said:

After reading it, I had a minor ego-trip of depression the following day

@Patrick Hi Patrick. It sounds like you had a realization to some degree by your statement here. The ego throwing up resistance any way it can to protect it's fragile self. Your realization gave contrast to that ego by bringing it into the light and exposing it for what it is. This is a big part of the practice. Leo said in one of his video's  "He loves fucking with his ego". If I may suggest, the next time it shows itself by putting up resistance, just laugh in it's face. Doing so will result in the liberation from it.

[Patrick]

@Leo Gura Perhaps Jed + Steven Norquist's explanation of enlightenment is exaggerated--my question for you is, why would they feel the need to do so?

What's lurking on the other side? Can you know for sure without having experienced it yourself?

As Steven Norquist puts it, enlightenment is "serious business," is irrevocable, nor does he ever recommend it to anyone else (he hides it from his family in fact)--According to his haunting, yet consistent description of enlightenment, it's complete annihilation, destruction, the body will literally experience "horror;" "You" will literally never be the same again, and you cannot know how the human body will react afterwards. You will feel utter "emptiness" every single second of every single day for the rest of your life. He's lost motivation:

(from article) "I have hesitated to write about it not because enlightenment itself is so hard to describe, but because enlightenment tends to make one quite lazy. Before my change I was a busy beaver, reading and writing and playing music and sports and really actively getting out there. But after “the change” as I call it, there was a clear vision of how silly all this activity was and how much incredible effort is required to perform it."

And he's even lost touch with how to navigate just mundane reality.

It sounds like enlightenment work is risky business to be perfectly honest.

http://www.spiritualteachers.org/norquist_article.htm

Edited July 22, 2016 by Patrick

[Travis]

@Patrick @Leo Gura

Yeah, this has me very confused as well.

Accounts by McKenna and Norquist are so completely different than the one's by Ralston, Spira, and other no-nonsense people.

Why such a disparity?

Are McKenna and Norquist just the only 2 enlightened beings and everyone else is faking it?

Is the process of enlightenment completely unpredictable?

They both say no one actually wants enlightenment because basically the price is everything.

Honestly, it seems incredibly dangerous, the way those 2 put it. 

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Travis said:

@Patrick @Leo Gura

Yeah, this has me very confused as well.

Accounts by McKenna and Norquist are so completely different than the one's by Ralston, Spira, and other no-nonsense people.

Why such a disparity?

Are McKenna and Norquist just the only 2 enlightened beings and everyone else is faking it?

Is the process of enlightenment completely unpredictable?

They both say no one actually wants enlightenment because basically the price is everything.

Honestly, it seems incredibly dangerous, the way those 2 put it. 

People are different. Enlightenment can come through very different paths, and post-enlightenment can be different too. How the mind interprets the Truth can be very different.

I dunno about Norquist, but McKenna's clearly very happy with his enlightenment.

Don't mistake the hellish path to enlightenment that some people take with enlightenment itself. A lot of people are neurotic and fucked up before they get enlightened, and they can even remain so afterwards.

If you're doing enlightenment work properly and calmly, there's nothing to worry about.

Broaden your sources. Try looking at enlightenment from the Sufi perspective or the Yogic perspective, rather than just these two guys.

[Patrick]

@cetus56

13 hours ago, cetus56 said:

@Patrick Hi Patrick. It sounds like you had a realization to some degree by your statement here. The ego throwing up resistance any way it can to protect it's fragile self. Your realization gave contrast to that ego by bringing it into the light and exposing it for what it is. This is a big part of the practice. Leo said in one of his video's  "He loves fucking with his ego". If I may suggest, the next time it shows itself by putting up resistance, just laugh in it's face. Doing so will result in the liberation from it.

  

Thank you for your support!

[Patrick]

@Leo Gura

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

People are different. Enlightenment can come through very different paths, and post-enlightenment can be different too. How the mind interprets the Truth can be very different.

I dunno about Norquist, but McKenna's clearly very happy with his enlightenment.

Don't mistake the hellish path to enlightenment that some people take with enlightenment itself. A lot of people are neurotic and fucked up before they get enlightened, and they can even remain so afterwards.

If you're doing enlightenment work properly and calmly, there's nothing to worry about.

Broaden your sources. Try looking at enlightenment from the Sufi perspective or the Yogic perspective, rather than just these two guys.

Thank you for your wise words, Leo. Much appreciated!