Subjective vs Objective Enlightenment?

[Anton Rogachevski]

What troubles me lately is the function of a brain to turn off the ability to
distinguish reality from imagination. It happens everytime we dream,
because the weird things in a dream would immediately be recognized as not real
in a conscious state, but in order for the dream to keep
going we gotta have the ability to ignore the weirdness - to perceive it as normal and real.

Guess what, the brain is activating that function using its own secreted DMT.

Now who's to say that psychedelics don't do just that: turn off the
brain's ability to distinguish imagination from reality. This is a scary
thought because it threatens all the insights we bring back.

Of course one may take enlightenment to be a purely subjective experience which affects
one's own relationship to mental objects and still get all the cool benefits -
wouldn't that be quite reasonable to admit?

Edited April 23, 2020 by Anton Rogachevski

[The observer]

37 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

Now who's to say that psychedelics don't do just that: turn off the brain's ability to distinguish imagination from reality.

well the truth is just the opposite b cuz the ability to distinguish imagination from reality comes later. the natural state is no distinction but then one learns to create distinctions and so the illusion gets created. this realization could certainly be a problem b cuz it could mean the end of the dream which is the human life but of course u could still ignore it and go on to live an ordinary life its fine either way theres no wrong way to live neither a wrong way to die. its just a dream 

[Anton Rogachevski]

@The observer

When you dream you take all the imagined things to be real because of the dream state. When you wake up you see that it was imaginary.

If you take DMT you can have imaginary things seem real while awake. Like a feeling of love, it will feel real, leading you to conclude that: "reality is love."

[Nahm]

@Anton Rogachevski

Subjective, objective, reality, imagination, and a brain which can ‘tell the difference’, are thoughts, and not even.

[The observer]

12 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

@The observer

When you dream you take all the imagined things to be real because of the dream state. When you wake up you see that it was imaginary.

ur assuming that this waking state has a ground (ie is real) as opposed to the dream state which is grounded in this waking state (ie is unreal) but where is this ground? just b cuz u wake up here does not mean this is the ultimate ground we will die eventually and this ground will vanish so wheres the ultimate ground?

12 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

@The observer

If you take DMT you can have imaginary things seem real while awake. Like a feeling of love, it will feel real, leading you to conclude that: "reality is love."

ive never taken a drug and ive concluded that reality is love. its not about the drug its about identifying as a human being and having stakes in the game. of course from a human being pov reality is not love b cuz love is just an emotion but from a unattached unbiased pov things become clearer and u realize the truth b cuz truth is unattached and unbiased so u cant say reality is anything unless ur neutral 

Edited April 23, 2020 by The observer

[Anton Rogachevski]

9 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@Anton Rogachevski

Subjective, objective, reality, imagination, and a brain which can ‘tell the difference’, are thoughts, and not even.

Or so it appears from an absolutely solipsistic subjective point of view, which makes total sense.

[Nahm]

@Anton Rogachevski Might be a step in home direction, but doesn’t make ‘total sense’. It will lead to deeper contemplation & deconstructions.

[Anton Rogachevski]

All of which paradoxically means that "Awakening" is the ability to induce a lucid dream state while awake.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Anton Rogachevski

[fridjonk]

One of the most radical things about reality is its oneness. So the more slicing and dicing one does, it seems to go further away from being total. 

That's why the rational mind cannot know it. Feelings come closer to experiencing it, as I'm sure you know all this already

It's all the same substance.  

[Nahm]

@Anton Rogachevski

Paradox doesn’t exist in actuality. The thought itself it does is you. 

[The observer]

Just now, Nahm said:

@Anton Rogachevski

Paradox doesn’t exist in actuality.

love this one!

[Anton Rogachevski]

@Nahm

Sure a "Paradox" is the braking point of logic in trying to depict actuality.

[Nahm]

@Anton Rogachevski You just returned to the initial subject-object inquiry of the thread. Try to ascertain which is which in your last comment.

  

[Anton Rogachevski]

@Nahm

Why though? Both actuality and logic are absolutely subjective so to speak.

One subjective appearance is trying to to depict another subjective appearance with a third subjective appearance. 

Surely if one wanted to disqualify an argument which threatens his worldview it would be easy to dismiss it all as "just thoughts."

Edited April 23, 2020 by Anton Rogachevski

[Nahm]

19 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

Why though

Fear, but ultimately, love. 

Don’t rope me in to your subject-object situation! 

?

[VeganAwake]

1 hour ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

All of which paradoxically means that "Awakening" is the ability to induce a dream state while awake.

It's literally the opposite of what you said here.

It's seeing reality without the mind's conditioning.(filters,lenses, judgements)

It's recognized subject was never apart from object... the separation was an illusion created by the mind and energy in the body.

Enlightenment is Awakening from the dream of the separate individual...its simply Truth!!

Psychedelics are great for throwing off the minds traditional/natural thinking patterns, and they create a new path for energy to take... it reveals alternatives...

Now after this is recognized the trick is not taking any path at all... just stay neutral for a while until the illusion is completely seen through..

❤

 

 

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by VeganAwake

[Anton Rogachevski]

43 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Fear, but ultimately, love. 

Don’t rope me in to your subject-object situation! 

?

You may keep pretending that your subjective actuality is all there is. I won't blame ya, It sure seems that way subjectively. 

[Nahm]

@Anton Rogachevski Hi! Welcome to the actuality. Now confront & release that without involving me. Consider writing a list of what is not subjective in your direct experience. ??  And perhaps a second list of what you know to be true outside of your subjective direct experience. 

Here’s a great song about it.  

[Forestluv]

3 hours ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

What troubles me lately is a function the brain has to turn off the ability of
distinguishing reality from imagination. It happens everytime we dream
because in dreams there are weird things that in a normal conscious state
we immediately recognize as not real, but in order for the dream to keep
going we gotta have the ability to ignore the weirdness.
 

Now who's to say that psychedelics don't do just that: turn off the brain's ability to distinguish imagination from reality. This is a scary thought because it threatens all the insights we bring back.
 

This is creating categories of “real” and “imagined”. There is nothing wrong with that and it can be helpful to functioning in life and for survival. If I’m standing on the edge of the Grand Canyon and tempted to fly like an eagle, it’s good to create categories and distinguish whether I am dreaming or not dreaming. If I’m dreaming, it’s time to fly like an eagle, if I’m not dreaming it’s best to stay standing and imagine what it would be like to fly like an eagle.

This as practical value and I’m not saying it’s wrong. The trap a mind gets into is dualistic structures of opposites - that if one thing is true, then the opposite is false. This is major barrier. In this case the mind may think “If everything is a imaginary, that must mean that there is nothing real - that there is no real and imagined. How can that be? There is obviously real and imagined?”. This is a trap, because both are true and if the mind believes it must accept one side and reject another side, then it will not be able to see the truth of both sides. A very simple example, are the two sides of the coin. If the mind is oriented such that only one side is the coin, it will not be able to see how both sides are the coin. If the mind believes the coin is the heads side and someone says look at the tails side - the mind will think “How can the coin be tails? That would mean the coin is not heads and the coin is clearly heads”. 

To see both sides of the duality, one must be shown the truth of the opposite to see both are true. If someone can only see the truth of the “heads” side, they need to realize the truth of the “tails” side. If one can only see the truth of the “tails” side, they need to realize the truth of the “heads” side. . . Here you can clearly see that there is real and imagined. You can clearly see that there are imaginary and real things. You have that part of the truth down. That is the “heads” side, and you don’t need any more help seeing the truth of that side. What you need to realize is that everything is imaginary (without rejecting that everything is not imaginary). To do this, I have found it helpful to explore inter-connections between the duality so it is not black and white. For example, rather than creating two categories of “real” and “imagined”, we can explored how the categories are inter-related and how there is a spectrum. For example, we could explore things that are “sorta real and sorta imagined”, we could explore experiences in which we cannot tell the difference between real and imagined. We can observe how the mind creates real and imagined.

On the flip side would be a person locked into “everything is imagined. Everything is a dream”. This person can see the truth that everything is imagined, yet cannot see the truth that there is a difference between real and imagined. The human mind is generally not programmed for this orientation, yet it can occur. I’ve met one person that was completely immersed within the truth that everything is imagined and could not see the truth that there is real vs. imagined. He had the opposite orientation than you. Due to his immersion into everything is imagined, he didn’t even consider anything real (it’s all imagined). He could even understand the concept of real. He had an extremely difficult time functioning in life and it took him many years to understand a thing the concept of “real vs. imagined”. He still struggles with it at times. . . He could only see “tails” and not “heads”. However, you have the opposite orientation. You can see that there is real and imagined, yet cannot see that there is only imagined. You can see “heads”, yet not “tails”. Yet it can be very difficult to see the other side of truth, since it is perceived as very threatening to a self construct and it’s survival. 

[Anton Rogachevski]

11 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@Anton Rogachevski Hi! Welcome to the actuality. Now confront & release that without involving me. Consider writing a list of what is not subjective in your direct experience. ??

Yes it is all within the subjective experience, but why would I assume it's not somewhere out there too?

Edited April 23, 2020 by Anton Rogachevski