What is normal ? Healthy Power dynamics / Relationships

[ValiantSalvatore]

I am currently struggling with the notion of what is normal. I never enjoyed subconsciously to adjust for various reasons I could interpret. Yet, I know I have insecurities and the normal way seems to hide those, especially in public. I can't fathom why or how humans restrict vulnerability so much, yet I can understand since it breeds a lot of anger for me. I can be very open and vulnerable when there is space for that to the degree I can and it feels awesome. Yet, to have the strength to do that in public seems, quite odd. The more I get to meet people the more I feel they want to destroy any repute that I build because I am tbh. above average and don't like it to be oppressed in any sort of way. Then people abuse that to make me look aggressive when I feel hurt and already technically deal with that emotion because I tap into it. Yet, I am not sure yet this all seems like a big unconscious joke. Even when I sit at the Students Council or Connection, they complain why are you so quiet. Well, I can tell XYZ Introvert etc.  I do not talk if there is no reason. Even when I am quite open. Sometimes since I am tall I need to lead the whole conversation that is how I feel, yet I know let alone being on this forum that differences and opinions will differ greatly. And I get angry at spoiled brats like in the past somehow who put themselves above me. In that sense is that even normal? 

Then people put themselves above me or others because I am not in a position to be above them. Which is fine, yet they forgot that there are many constellations that build up status. Like, size, money, amount of friendships, compassion dimensions, the value you provide, amount of sexual partners you have available etc. To have influence. 

From what I've read the most healthy approach is to be compassionate and provide value in the specific area. Still, I've read maybe one book about power dynamics indirectly and otherwise watched some videos. 

I really have a problem with people ascribing an identity towards me which affects me negatively, same with relationships. I do not know what is normal in a relationship since I either see the highly idealistic version that I have, which could be possible or not. Or the unconscious materialistic version which focuses on Netflix and chill, consumption and the holidays, which is fine to a degree. Yet, I feel as if there is something which goes lost. Especially a more conservative viewpoint. Most women in my age group, I basically would need to influence them into practicing vulnerability with me, also meditation and or yoga. Which helps to grow or I feel often that I would be cheated on, since I am a loyal trustworthy idiot basically. Which struggles with abandonment issues, pls kill it, and therefore I reject people in order to not get hurt since I fear rejection. Yet, tbh I am not in a position where I feel I can take these without some support. Which I do not have atm. Since this causes so much anger, especially when questioned that I fear to hurt people since I would do it. In case I would be threatened in the same manner!

I fear shamanic breathing since my scar basically hinders me to breathe completely and when I do it even while meditation or anything else, I get so pissed sometimes that I can't even breath normally and have the impression unconsciously that I do smth. wrong. I still do the 3-2-1 process of Ken Wilber, but I think this has limits.

This pretty much describes the problem that I have and the solutions that I am also implementing for some time:
https://www.goodtherapy.org/learn-about-therapy/issues/anger
https://www.goodtherapy.org/learn-about-therapy/issues/anger/control

 

In that what is a normal healthy power dynamic and aggression? Especially, with anger in relationships or rejection etc.

Edited January 30, 2019 by ValiantSalvatore

[lmfao]

@ValiantSalvatore I myself can have a lot of pent up anger as well, so I can relate. I'm also quite introverted. I see myself as a nice guy, but I can have a low fuse for certain things which trigger me. Are you asking for advice in regards to your anger as well as advice on being more open and vulnerable with people? ( I believe you're trying to say that your interactions with people lead to pent up anger?). 

Introversion is an interesting thing. The way I see it, there does exist a large natural variation in people's temperaments in regards to introversion and extraversion. However I know that for myself my introverted traits are partially a function of low consciousness and neurosis. The willingness to open up to other people and the willingness to be authentic are usually the same thing (at least for me), and in many situations someone who's not willing to open up or express themselves is acting upon neurosis imo (unless they have some tangible motive for not doing so). Not being willing to open up is often attributed to introversion. I still think that introversion/extraversion is natural. Some people like to talk and socialise loads, other not so much. 

I'm usually quite the introverted dull person, but I was to meet someone new today they might get the impression that I'm an extraverted and jolly . I've found that for myself when I'm in a higher consciousness state and am less neurotic I'm naturally more extraverted. However, socialising still tires me out. It's weird, because I partially want to socialise but it feels like a drain for me and to a large degree that can be due to my natural temperament. However when looking at the general case for different people and different situations, I think being drained from socialising isn't solely a function of "introversion"(im using quotation marks because the word introversion is hard to precisely define and the definition can be somewhat subjective). If you force an extravert into social situations where the topic of conversation is boring for them, they will get drained. Part of the reason I get drained from social situation is because most of the social situations I find myself in are just extremely boring for me at times. Maybe this is true for you? I think I possibly have "ADHD" so I just get drained from things I find boring. 

After reading what you write, it sounds like you need give less of a fuck in general. I can't say I've integrated this for myself, but just be yourself and pay little regard for the consequences. I know that for myself, the more assertively I act the less angry I feel. That's because my mind isn't fighting with itself neurotically about what I should do in certain situations. I try to act on instinct, mindfully with little filtering if possible. It's about trying to act in the spirit of what is often called "Wu Wei" for me. Action in the spirit of non-action. Being vulnerable will lead to you having more power and control over certain situations. I have anxiety problems and that leads to me not being open and vulnerable, as you put it. Maybe you feel fear and anxiety about what other people will think/do if you say/do certain things? 

[ValiantSalvatore]

@lmfao I know what you mean with "Wu Wei" in case I remember and correct me if I am wrong, it is effortless action. I love this when I can be humorous with someone or it occurs out of a situation, where it feels more like a high state of concentration. Especially, innocent humor is lovely. 

4 hours ago, lmfao said:

Introversion is an interesting thing. The way I see it, there does exist a large natural variation in people's temperaments in regards to introversion and extraversion. However I know that for myself my introverted traits are partially a function of low consciousness and neurosis. The willingness to open up to other people and the willingness to be authentic are usually the same thing (at least for me), and in many situations someone who's not willing to open up or express themselves is acting upon neurosis imo (unless they have some tangible motive for not doing so). Not being willing to open up is often attributed to introversion. I still think that introversion/extraversion is natural. Some people like to talk and socialise loads, other not so much. 

Did you ever read the book "Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking"? WhatI know about introverts is that they have a different brain structure, they tend to be more verbose, yet worse problem solvers in juxtaposition to extroverts, also they have a different facial structure, so extroverts look like they smile more often or happier overall, on pictures. Another/Same thing I read with energy levels, that introverts tend to have energy levels drained by interactions while extroverts are fulled by them. This was from an ASAP Science video years ago.

I can go in a bit more detail about the BIG 5 which has been broken up, for interest sake.

Where introverts that have a low in conscientiousness get more done than extroverts, yet it is the opposite when they are high in conscientiousness. I am assuming the trait and that you are familiar with the single traits, that I am discounting orderliness. Since industrious is basically ambition or action taking. Extroverts with low conscientious levels get bored and start distracting themselves. I can see this with friends, they also tend to have worse grades and academic achievement overall, even when high in openness and especially if not. Take Joe Rogan or so for as an example. His drawing skills are excellent, yet he moved out of university for whatever reason. I saw the same with friends here the very extroverted and lazy human beings struggle with keeping up with exams, yet they enjoy life a lot. 

Also, that introversion somehow developed already in apes? That the extroverted apes went down and explored while the others stayed on trees. In case you are interested to feel free to elaborate lol. 

4 hours ago, lmfao said:

I myself can have a lot of pent up anger as well, so I can relate. I'm also quite introverted. I see myself as a nice guy, but I can have a low fuse for certain things which trigger me. Are you asking for advice in regards to your anger as well as advice on being more open and vulnerable with people? ( I believe you're trying to say that your interactions with people lead to pent up anger?).

More or less, I listened to an Audiobook since I caught a cold where Ken Wilber... talked about Shadow work and aggression and I went through my notes from the Integral Life forum. Where they talked about aggression ( Ken Wilber and a different Psychologist than Dr.Robert Keith, what I can recall is. That anger is an energy that wants to move forward, Ken talks about a story on the integral life platform where, he sliced open frogs, and was very very ambitious and competitive, also the relationship towards his father, yearning for him to come home etc. It is or seemed a bit psychopathic, yet ( I don't know what a psychopath is besides that he has cold empathy and not any sort of affective empathy, manipulates people to his advantage and is a liar). The word anger somehow can be retraced back to the verb "to agrees" which means to move forward, so it can be a healthy expression of anger. With shadow work in the audiobook, he mentioned that instead of projection making the first person anger I, into a third person liaison, hence.. projecting it on an object or it. Yet, what happens with shadow work is that the anger is not projected upon others anymore, instead owned. I did that a lot during the last year now almost two years in Feb/March. He also mentions as one grows through the spiral more shadow elements are being added and that if shadow work is not done, lower shadow elements of lower stages, stay as residuals. 

So, instead of projecting what happens is that the trait is renowned and not projected onto a third person object. Meaning I become/own my anger and stop blaming, criticizing that others are angry and criticizing me out of anger, meaning I stop projecting and say hey this xyz gestalt is so angry, everyone is angry besides me, I am so perfect I never get angry etc. I simply become angry, which scares me a lot , .... sometimes can be a lifesaver, anger is expressed instead of repressed to make a long story short. That's it. I was using, for instance, my anger last week on the treadmill testing how fast I can run/sprint. As I felt my body moving with anger as movement or shitty wu wei inside my body. It was effortful. (the energy move me into producing more effort)

What I was somehow asking subconsciously is if vulnerability and anger are correlated. Yet, I can't find an answer I feel anger is a defensive stance towards a healthy expression of vulnerability. 

 

4 hours ago, lmfao said:

After reading what you write, it sounds like you need give less of a fuck in general.

Agree, yet I never felt I could stop carrying that is why it pisses me off lol. So, I bought the book 48 laws of power, to see the mechanisms behind power games and use them myself when necessary. Yet, networking would be more beneficial to deal with this as training. I attended 3 networking events in my life and there was more of a natural aping than power aping, like in politics. Or forums..., so just getting to know people and buzzing off at one point was kind of cool. While I did not drink alcohol, this was even more fun. But uh, scary lol. 

[ValiantSalvatore]

5 hours ago, lmfao said:

Action in the spirit of non-action.

I assume "wu wei" is effortless action, action without having an intention of having an action or non-attached action as I think you described. Open presence is one term Krishnamurti used. I loved this so much I trained auto-think from Shinzen Young for a time, do nothing feels different imo. Yet, stayed with the overall "system".  

[Forestluv]

A compassionate, heart-centered perspective:

 

[ValiantSalvatore]

@Serotoninluv Thanks a lot! This pretty much sums up, to a degree what I went through the last micro-retreat! In addition to the 48 laws of power and let's say ... Makiyo to take this a little deeper. This is from some paid source from Shinzen where I took notes on for other reads, I assume you know all of this by content. EXCUSE GRAMMAR! 

Phenomena that happen when you are meditating:

Makiyo: Visual type things, can happen when you have physical stress, sleep deprivation, sensory deprivation, hot cold, extreme pleasure, pain. It can get into the way of spiritual practice it also is the content of spiritual practice. The devil in zen is considered something that is getting in the way of spiritual practice.

Content and Nature of consciousness -> When gods or deities appear on refers to them on the content of consciousness mostly, because they are either way freaked out or they are intersted and relate to it. What ever comes up is observerd with mindfulness and equanimity. Including the reactions to meditation. Be precisie and detach and observe that material. What is happening at that time. The creativ activity of consciousness is creating this world. Underneath these forms are movement of consciousness, it is like a turning in the ocean or the turning of buutter. It is formless wilness and effortless. These forms a flowing up and are generated, the more detached you become the more real they get, untill you beomce completely detached from them and they become the pure energy of expansion and contraction. Insight into how the mind produces experiences or consciousness.

 

Sublte grasping unconscious does that. You are near the source of unconscious or near the unconscious. Any grasping becomes a thing and can be observed and if not no solidifying and it becomes activated.

 

-Subtle little vibrations expansion and contraction high frequencies. Enlightenment is you are comfortable in the dark.

 

Clear light is expansion and contraction at a high frequency.

That can be an object of meditation the frequencies.

[lmfao]

@ValiantSalvatore

1 hour ago, ValiantSalvatore said:

@lmfao 

Did you ever read the book "Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking"? WhatI know about introverts is that they have a different brain structure, they tend to be more verbose, yet worse problem solvers in juxtaposition to extroverts, also they have a different facial structure, so extroverts look like they smile more often or happier overall, on pictures. Another/Same thing I read with energy levels, that introverts tend to have energy levels drained by interactions while extroverts are fulled by them. This was from an ASAP Science video years ago.

I can go in a bit more detail about the BIG 5 which has been broken up, for interest sake.

Where introverts that have a low in conscientiousness get more done than extroverts, yet it is the opposite when they are high in conscientiousness. I am assuming the trait and that you are familiar with the single traits, that I am discounting orderliness. Since industrious is basically ambition or action taking. Extroverts with low conscientious levels get bored and start distracting themselves. I can see this with friends, they also tend to have worse grades and academic achievement overall, even when high in openness and especially if not. Take Joe Rogan or so for as an example. His drawing skills are excellent, yet he moved out of university for whatever reason. I saw the same with friends here the very extroverted and lazy human beings struggle with keeping up with exams, yet they enjoy life a lot. 

Also, that introversion somehow developed already in apes? That the extroverted apes went down and explored while the others stayed on trees. In case you are interested to feel free to elaborate lol. 

I'm quite familiar with the Big 5 traits. I haven't read that book lol. I didn't know that information about the interaction between extraversion and conscientiousness, it makes sense to me though lol. I don't know if introverts are more verbose. Being verbose but being a worse problem solver reminds me of myself. In MBTI I think this might correspond to the N vs S dichotomy, or in the big 5 it could correspond to high vs low openness to experience. 

1 hour ago, ValiantSalvatore said:

@lmfao

More or less, I listened to an Audiobook since I caught a cold where Ken Wilber... talked about Shadow work and aggression and I went through my notes from the Integral Life forum. Where they talked about aggression ( Ken Wilber and a different Psychologist than Dr.Robert Keith, what I can recall is. That anger is an energy that wants to move forward, Ken talks about a story on the integral life platform where, he sliced open frogs, and was very very ambitious and competitive, also the relationship towards his father, yearning for him to come home etc. It is or seemed a bit psychopathic, yet ( I don't know what a psychopath is besides that he has cold empathy and not any sort of affective empathy, manipulates people to his advantage and is a liar). The word anger somehow can be retraced back to the verb "to agrees" which means to move forward, so it can be a healthy expression of anger. With shadow work in the audiobook, he mentioned that instead of projection making the first person anger I, into a third person liaison, hence.. projecting it on an object or it. Yet, what happens with shadow work is that the anger is not projected upon others anymore, instead owned. I did that a lot during the last year now almost two years in Feb/March. He also mentions as one grows through the spiral more shadow elements are being added and that if shadow work is not done, lower shadow elements of lower stages, stay as residuals. 

So, instead of projecting what happens is that the trait is renowned and not projected onto a third person object. Meaning I become/own my anger and stop blaming, criticizing that others are angry and criticizing me out of anger, meaning I stop projecting and say hey this xyz gestalt is so angry, everyone is angry besides me, I am so perfect I never get angry etc. I simply become angry, which scares me a lot , .... sometimes can be a lifesaver, anger is expressed instead of repressed to make a long story short. That's it. I was using, for instance, my anger last week on the treadmill testing how fast I can run/sprint. As I felt my body moving with anger as movement or shitty wu wei inside my body. It was effortful. (the energy move me into producing more effort)

What I was somehow asking subconsciously is if vulnerability and anger are correlated. Yet, I can't find an answer I feel anger is a defensive stance towards a healthy expression of vulnerability. 

"anger is an energy that wants to move forward" yeah. Although I don't necessarily believe in it fully you can take a SD perspective on it. Stage Red wishes to further itself and get things accomplished with an intense single minded passion. Stage Red when healthily integrated will instils inside you a desire for individuation and chasing what you want.

I like what you said about owning your anger. Don't be afraid of it, it's a part of nature. Although, I might be a hypocrite since I have not got anger controlled for myself I'm instead just talking from a few experiences I've felt anger to be a force for "good" in my life. I've taken the approach of using anger as a tool for action and I have a mixed bag of results to be honest. Acting impulsively on anger for me can be an easy way to become egotistical and just have a lower consciousness overall, but on the other hand I don't want to repress it.  

1 hour ago, ValiantSalvatore said:

 

Agree, yet I never felt I could stop carrying that is why it pisses me off lol. So, I bought the book 48 laws of power, to see the mechanisms behind power games and use them myself when necessary. Yet, networking would be more beneficial to deal with this as training. I attended 3 networking events in my life and there was more of a natural aping than power aping, like in politics. Or forums..., so just getting to know people and buzzing off at one point was kind of cool. While I did not drink alcohol, this was even more fun. But uh, scary lol. 

 I haven't read that book. When I care about what other people think of me, it's a function of raw anxiety and partially fear for me. I know that for me I probably wouldn't find that book helpful for that purpose. Social intelligence is always good though, I'm sure the book would be useful for me somehow.

You might like the book thick face black heart. I haven't read it all but it seems good. Wasn't my cup of tea fully because I felt it to be repeating itself, but good nonetheless. 

Edited January 31, 2019 by lmfao

[ValiantSalvatore]

@lmfao Yeah, I did Thick Face Black Heart. But needs a couple of re-reads with life experiences. I can understand it a bit since I lived in China, that is why I like it a lot. For instance, the boss had such a "big face" that everyone worked hard, and he had a "perfect" life. Multiple startups, always on the go was married which is culturally extremely important. Etc. Nobody would dare to question him(note I don't speak any Chinese languages), and everyone paid him a lot of respect and worked giga hard when he was there, it dropped dead silent and you could only hear the bosses voice upstairs talking very very intelligently and friendly by tonality, yet I have no idea what actually happened. Me and my co-worker from France always had to laugh at weird Chinese social interactions no idea, for me it felt like an anime I am legit not kidding lol, I loved it. Many people in the startup went to uni, no idea which. The French guy did his masters in economics

Still, somehow either the culture or the boss abused the people, not sure most people stayed an hour longer. So, by contrasting culture and imagining how business is like. This book can be fantastic imo. For whatever purposes.

2 hours ago, lmfao said:

"anger is an energy that wants to move forward" yeah. Although I don't necessarily believe in it fully you can take a SD perspective on it. Stage Red wishes to further itself and get things accomplished with an intense single minded passion. Stage Red when healthily integrated will instils inside you a desire for individuation and chasing what you want.

I like what you said about owning your anger. Don't be afraid of it, it's a part of nature. Although, I might be a hypocrite since I have not got anger controlled for myself I'm instead just talking from a few experiences I've felt anger to be a force for "good" in my life. I've taken the approach of using anger as a tool for action and I have a mixed bag of results to be honest. Acting impulsively on anger for me can be an easy way to become egotistical and just have a lower consciousness overall, but on the other hand I don't want to repress it.  

5

 

I read the book integral psychology, this is a great resource talking about psychology and spiral dynamics. Premodern and Modern to Postmodern changes in culture. Theories from Psychologist such as Kohlberg and Cale Gilligan, various stages, quadrants, lines, levels. AQAL -> All quadrants all levels all lines are explained. Yet, it is okay to read, a bit technical, I am not a memory genius. So, talking about it helps or writing. 

I took a glimpse into the book, stage red is described by the lord of the flies, for instance, power drives, feudal lords, heroes, dragons. Is the basis of feudal empires, is power driven, egocentric, impulsive, heroic. (See any anime fight).  "The Feudal Lords protect underlings in exchange for obedience and labor". Also, power and glory enjoy self to the fullest without regret or remorse. Can be equated with a black heart. If it would be the social sword and thick face the social shield. 

Where seen:  Jame bond villains, wild rock stars, Attila the Hun, rebellious youth, frontier mentalities, epic heroes. 

I can see what you mean with that, owning anger especially with the preference of choosing anger as something good is from my point of view an awesome choice, instead of repressing it and denying it. I am owning my anger more and more. Sports is the game changer for me, yet I cought I could so I am missing that streak for now. Especially, in case you want to grow up stages in the Audibook integral transformation which came out this year, Ken Wilber mentions that weightlifting especially helps, to grow, since its activities the body. It helps with neurogenesis as is commonly known now and helps also to grow in the emotional line and one other line(+growth overall)

Also, that training the "subtle", "casual", bodies the physical body is the "gross" body helps to grow in stages like tai chi etc.

I am also doing a compassionate meditation now and split it up into 2 segments because I can't stand being overly compassionate for 1h. It is draining, and I feel too many setbacks from that 30 min works is perfect for now. The flow ( i am going by technique name) inside the body feels similar to anger, yet warmer, more colorful, happier and merrier. I feel it helps a lot with jealousy and frustration, I am by predisposition not a very jealous person, I am more ... resentful and frustrated. So, this is great. For counteracting that. (All three emotions).

2 hours ago, lmfao said:

I'm quite familiar with the Big 5 traits. I haven't read that book lol. I didn't know that information about the interaction between extraversion and conscientiousness, it makes sense to me though lol. I don't know if introverts are more verbose. Being verbose but being a worse problem solver reminds me of myself. In MBTI I think this might correspond to the N vs S dichotomy, or in the big 5 it could correspond to high vs low openness to experience. 

I have this from JP lectures and websites where I took the big 5 test. I assumed you might have read the book Quiet, I always wanted to buy it. Yet, never felt it is that important. I will still buy it in the near future. Ideally. I like MBTI, yet I made myself crazy, I still glimpsed into it. Reading it too much I feel I define myself to one stereotype at one hand at the other I feel when I know how each function works that I can use it to understand ppl and myself. I rarely get types wrong besides INTP, I often think they are ISTJ an ISFJ.. Even after watching so much of Leo's content + LP course. I like it as a model to deal with individuals and seeking out people who I know I click with. For instance, I get along the most as an INFJ with ISTJ is for me the most humorous of all times, INTJ and ENFJ work extremely well. I like all types. So, I don't care that much. This is the video I watched in the past about introversion and extroversion.
 

 

Edited February 1, 2019 by ValiantSalvatore

[ValiantSalvatore]

2 hours ago, lmfao said:

Acting impulsively on anger for me can be an easy way to become egotistical and just have a lower consciousness overall, but on the other hand I don't want to repress it

@lmfaoShadow work or shamanic breathing might be the best tool, Ken Wilber mentioned that Zen Masters had hang-ups with shadow material, for instance, anger was one point he mentioned. Also, that meditation opens up a space of integration of shadow elements and does so automatically "horrible paraphrasing". 

To give an analogy from Ken he mentioned a deer taking charge at a bramble brush because it is angry is not considered hostile or anything, it is just angry charging against the bramble brush. So, might not be the best analogy. Yet, hopefully, get's the point across, I am still integrating this now with more sports! 

Edited February 1, 2019 by ValiantSalvatore

[lmfao]

Yeah sports probably is one of the best ways to do shadow work.