Posted July 12, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, Emerald said: Tell a man that things will go back to a traditional society, and he may or may not like it. But he won't be afraid of his place within it. That's not true. Have you been subject to the choice between military conscription and imprisonment? Conscription was a traumatic experience for me. Have you been seriously threatened with years of prison sentence? We are still largely traditional although the difference is that women now have enough time and energy left to work at jobs. In the past, infant mortality rate was so high that only 2 out of 6 children survived. For a human population to maintain itself, the birth rate should be at least 2. It was evolutionary pressure that killed societies where women gave birth to less than 6 children in the past. It wasn't men who prevented women from going to work. Nowdays, even in islamic societies, economic necessity forces women to go to work and drive. Economic necessity is just another aspect of evolutionary pressure. It's only a matter of time before Islam succumbs to evolutionary pressure. Evolution doesn't care about tradition. Blue Traditionalism is scary to young men who are subject to conscription, too. Men like me want to abolish conscription. I was once very neurotic about eradicating conscription, but I realized I needed to understand perspectives before convincing people. Tell blue people to abolish conscription, and they won't listen. They will only strengthen their opinions through discussion. Blue traditionalism doesn't just let one gender roam freely. It is oppressive to everyone. It is far harsher to the lower class, but it is still oppressive to the kings like bill gates and donald trump. Do understand that blue absolutism was a solution to Red chaos. You can't just remove Blue absolutism without allowing Red psychopaths to run rampant. Go to south america where Red is running rampant. You'd wish more Blue was there. We still need some degrees of Blue conservatism without being dogmatic. Maintaining a stable conservative core for a while is helpful because doing so allows more room for experimentations. You can't just spin things every other day and expect things to not fall into Red chaos. Test your social theories in small-scale experimentations before rolling it out on a bigger scale. Every stage of tier 1 expects too much too fast. if you try to change things at a neckbreak pace, things collapse. Slow down. But, don't think that I support Blue. Blue tried to ban writing 2500 years ago and fought wars with capitalists over slavery. I try to maintain distance from any specific group. The pattern I see is that dogmatism slightly loosens as you transition from Purple to Blue to Green. But, Green is still dogmatic about group identity because it is in tier 1. One sign of dogmatic group identity is that one is persistent in gerrymandering an issue along the line of group boundary when there is no such clear boundary. The group can be any group. Another problem is that perspective by itself doesn't necessarily suffice as a solution. It might take more than perspective to solve a complex problem. Infinite intelligence could solve problems in totally unexpected ways. I've seen different perspectives at work, and they haven't worked too well. We have to accept that we don't know how to solve a problem, yet. Ignoring the fact that we don't know for sure is ignorance. What I'd like to see is more tolerance for confusion and more integrative systemic approach that includes everyone instead of drawing lines over artificial group boundaries because it's impossible for only a certain group of people to escape. Take capitalism for example. The ultra rich haven't escaped capitalism. Capitalism is rigged against everyone including the ultra rich. The ultra rich are so afraid of losing money and social status associated with money that they keep trying to screw everyone else over. The counterintuitive move is to lead people into a place where everyone doesn't care much about group identity. You become a woman or a man when you need to be. You become a citizen of USA when you need to be. But, most of the time, you just are a human being. The blue problems associated with islam and western traditionalism can be solved by leading people into Orange, Green, and Yellow. Don't expect Blue people to directly skip to Green. Green fails to convince Blue because Green wants Blue people to directly skip to Green. Lead Blue people into Blue-Orange first and then Orange and then Green. Encourage Blue people to taste sweet freedom that comes with Blue-Orange and Orange. After they become Orange, they will be ready for Orange-Green, Green, and Yellow and so on. Green depises Orange. Green hates leading Blue people into Orange. That's why it would be another counterintuitive move. To a spiral wizard, the stages matter much more than particular perspectives of stages. Green Islam and Green Jordan Peterson will not have problems associated with Blue. I don't know whether spiral wizardry works, but I bet my hopes on it for now. Edited July 12, 2018 by CreamCat Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 12, 2018 (edited) Quote you make the conclusion that he's advocating for genocide and eugenics secretly but don't say it (dog whistle). @Outer I don't know where this comes from. How do you know what a person didn't say? Why do you not refute my arguments as well? Where do you peg me, you, and others in spiral dynamics? Edited July 12, 2018 by CreamCat Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 12, 2018 @Outer So, you don't know spiral dynamics? I was excited to talk about spiral dynamics. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 12, 2018 I noticed that the real problem here is that we are not focusing on self actualization but social problems and collective ego. I remembered that I didn't come here to talk about social issues. What happened to focus on yourself? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 12, 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Outer said: Schools are systemic oppression. What do you do for those people experiencing that? @Outer It's too late for those already trapped in compulsory education. But, you can plan for a future in which your children are free from compulsory education, jury duty, and military conscription. Save what you can. Create small bubbles of freedom. Edited July 12, 2018 by CreamCat Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted July 12, 2018 Locking down these politically charged threads as they are just a juicy red herring. Back to the self-inquiry salt mines! You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
