Why do I=you=we exist?

[Zweistein]

So wait, here are two other diagrams showing the same context:

 

[Zweistein]

Why would we dare to choose to go back to unconscious incompetence?

[Zweistein]

Ahhh, I see - as unconsciously competent master, one may or may not learn to treat the unconscious incompetent as equal? Is that what you mean, Tsuki?

Edited July 26, 2018 by Zweistein

[now is forever]

17 hours ago, tsuki said:

@Zweistein I never considered this difference. I simply used a word that felt appropriate.
After reflecting on it, I think that the difference lies in openness towards the I=you=we.

I think that beliefs are aggressive in nature. One believes in order to orient oneself in the world.
If one is not accustomed with the unknown, one becomes upset when beliefs don't work in a particular situation.
By not working, I mean - the hierarchy of things (values/importance) is being messed with, and whatever one holds dear is brought among beings with no significance.
It's like when you tell a Christian, that the Holy Bible is just a fantasy book. That upsets his hierarchy (order) and the unwillingness to face the unknown (chaos) makes him suffer. What beliefs tend to do is to make people try to influence 'the other' so that the other conforms to the believed hierarchy. They try to change the world so that it doesn't upset their order.

What I called a 'vague hint' is different in its nature. It is non-aggressive.
Beliefs arise as a substitute of contemplation. Contemplation being a process in which things become unknown, so that one can watch like a child.
This hint is born (or rather, is open) as a result of contemplation.
This hint is not something that is used to orient myself in a hierarchy of separate things. That particular hint that I was talking about is a hint of totality that joins instead of severing. It cannot be used for orientation.

What hints do, as opposed to beliefs, is actually upset the order (the inner order) so that the order fits whatever arises.
That is why I was talking about its relationship to infinite intelligence. It bears similarity to a still mind, but it has nothing to do with the mind per se.
It is a singularity within the mind. It is neither no-mind, nor a mind. 
Thinking of it as a hint is not a good way to put it. As a 'vague hint', it is much more 'vague' than it is a 'hint'.
It is a form of openness, a smear, a cloud, a mist, a smoke, a water. It does not cut things into order, nor it can be cut.

Do you know what I'm talking about? Do you have any words (cuts) to point towards it?

if you let a materialistic worldview in sense of political philosophy with an utopian outcome run it’s tracks through the symbolism of religious systems in a childlike open mind, it will cut a track into existential survival, understanding where humanity has always wanted to go, leaving the controversials behind. it’s a matter of possibilities to act uppon them or the wanting to act uppon them that makes you one with everyone else. if you then reflect on the symbols and decide witch one are fake and witch one overlap in meaning you‘ll get a clear hint to the survival outcome of humanity on this planet. the path maybe smeared but the vision is not.

survival is the ability to find something positive in life and something to cling to.

Edited July 27, 2018 by now is forever

[now is forever]

found this yesterday 

the darker ones are related to the outside material world - the light gray to the inner spiritual work. i hope i don’t reveal too many secrets here... please delete if that‘s the case.

1.how to find love

2. how to keep love alive

3. sticking with it or going

4. how to develop potential in creating something (here it‘s related to career)

5. how to develop self-confidence

6. how to fail

7. how to develop selfawareness

8. how to interact/deal with others

9. how to be serene/composed

10. how culture can change your life

11. how to enjoy life

12. the meaning of life

Edited July 27, 2018 by now is forever
i take my pride in unlearning, wish i had this map before

[now is forever]

bauhaus philosophy of education, basically you wander through all phenomena, experiencing it, in the end you meet at the experimentation space together to create.

that‘s bauhaus networking.

if you finally understand the emptyness off a cup - you understand zen.

Edited July 27, 2018 by now is forever

[tsuki]

12 hours ago, Zweistein said:

Why would we dare to choose to go back to unconscious incompetence?

@Zweistein It is not a matter of insolence, but a matter of honesty.
What is the difference between a master and a novice? They are both unconscious, so the difference is competence.
What is competence? Competence is a measure of performance given a certain set of standards.
The degree of your competence is therefore predicated on the standards you compare your measurements of performance against.

So, the question arises: who is responsible for establishing the standards that are used to measure your performance?
If somebody else is responsible for that, then the distinction between a master and a novice is their choice and it has little to do with you.
If you are responsible for the standards, then you can call yourself a master, or a novice on a whim.

12 hours ago, Zweistein said:

Ahhh, I see - as unconsciously competent master, one may or may not learn to treat the unconscious incompetent as equal? Is that what you mean, Tsuki?

In a sense - yes. It is not something voluntary, though.
A master knows what he knows so, by extension, he knows the limit to what can be done.
A novice not only doesn't know, but also doesn't know what he doesn't know. There is no limit to not-knowing.
If there is a problem to be solved, a master will know when it is impossible to solve it, because he knows what can be done.
A novice however, has no such limitation. To a novice, there can always be a solution, because his search space is not constrained.

Knowledge of a master is a lens through which he perceives the world. If the world is misaligned with his knowledge, he calls it a problem.
A master that knows to be a novice understands that and can re-frame a problem so that it lies in a different domain. Out of his expertise.
This way, not only solutions can be found that are not bound by knowledge, but the problems can be solved without doing anything.
One may find that a problem in one domain is necessity for another domain. That a problem is actually a solution.

This is the path to peace/infinite intelligence that I'm following.
 

Edited July 27, 2018 by tsuki

[now is forever]

@tsuki it‘s a matter of construction and a matter of returning to the center fast enough.

i recommend wheel throwing class  for yogic experience in flexibility.

? we all carry our house on our shoulders it’s a matter of learning to fit us into the house and the house to fit us, when we are gone all that remains is an empty shell.

it’s nice to know, with growing, we already grow into a bigger house.

here and where we really are.

Edited July 27, 2018 by now is forever

[tsuki]

8 hours ago, now is forever said:

if you let a materialistic worldview in sense of political philosophy with an utopian outcome run it’s tracks through the symbolism of religious systems in a childlike open mind, it will cut a track into existential survival, understanding where humanity has always wanted to go, leaving the controversials behind. it’s a matter of possibilities to act uppon them or the wanting to act uppon them that makes you one with everyone else. if you then reflect on the symbols and decide witch one are fake and witch one overlap in meaning you‘ll get a clear hint to the survival outcome of humanity on this planet. the path maybe smeared but the vision is not.

@now is forever Sorry, but I don't quite understand what you're saying.
Not even the relationship between what you said and the post that you are quoting.

Are you hinting at a possibility to find a universal trend that all humanity follows?
From what I understand, you're saying that this trend can be found by curiously exploring the symbolism of religions in the context of political philosophy. I don't understand what do you mean by that.

You seem to be saying that this universal trend is the basis for oneness with everybody else.
It is also possible to predict where we're all headed, but I fail to see why would I want to know that.

I think that you're trusting my intellect too much and drop topics that are too deep for me at once.
If you want me to understand you, you have to start from a common place and first gain momentum before dropping them.
Baby steps.

8 hours ago, now is forever said:

survival is the ability to find something positive in life and something to cling to.

If that how you define it - it is impossible for me to survive. To me, positivity is a drive towards incidental values that I cling to.
It is again, a matter on how the values are chosen.
If I am the one that chooses these values, then I need something to optimize. How do I choose what to optimize, if I have no values?
If I am not the one that chooses these value, then my values have nothing to do with me. So does my positivity, or negativity.

Edited July 27, 2018 by tsuki

[now is forever]

mh - difficult - now i also need a translation to what you are saying. i’m talking in symbols.

and talking about how holism reappears in a lot of cultures - especially in religions. all these cultures are producers of art. in the art you can find symbols these symbols stand for something - if you try to align them with medicine politics etc you get some kind of code. and this code is a step closer to infinite intelligence. because you just have to follow the code. to understand the hidden meaning of unwritten knowledge. if you’ve found it you can embody it into every space or system. and then experiment upon that. but you are good in nihilism- so that’s your strength. so you are already good in saying no - why should you say yes, you are already saying yes to no. disconstruction is your power, it’s good without changing something about it!  it‘s still good to understand the symbols.

sorry i can‘t explain it better! it‘s about the meaning of the body parts what they do etc. what is a body when you talk about the ego, if systems are ego‘s etc.

the ego sits inside another ego inside another ego - like a matrioshka. the space in the middle is yourself. the house represents the shells ? it‘s a spiral, isn‘t it.

Edited July 27, 2018 by now is forever

[tsuki]

@now is forever I'm starting to understand, I think.

I agree that cultural symbols are very powerful. 
My favorite medium for reading symbols are movies. Ever since I became interested in spirituality, there is a vast, almost never-ending depth to practically any artistic movie. It's like I'm actually the one that makes the movie by watching it and interpreting it. It's like authors of that movie didn't understand themselves what they were talking about when they created it, because they are so deep, that it is inconceivable to me that any human being could punch so much meaning into 2.5 hours.

More and more movies that I watch, even the completely mundane ones, simply scream enlightenment at me. It's unbelievable.
And yes, there seems to be a code. It almost feels like there is a giant conspiracy that tries to hide all of that deep knowledge in plain sight, trying to sell it as food for our addictions. I really can't wrap my head around it.

From one perspective, it's like these directors are infinitely intelligent making these movies, or that I am so brilliant that I read their unconscious minds.
Neither of which seem reasonable to me. I may simply be out of my mind, reading things that aren't there .

3 hours ago, now is forever said:

but you are good in nihilism- so that’s your strength. so you are already good in saying no - why should you say yes, you are already saying yes to no. disconstruction is your power, it’s good without changing something about it!  it‘s still good to understand the symbols.

Tell me more about nihilism. What is nihilism to you? How is it a strength to you?
And yes - I can see that a no is much more versatile than yes. I prefer to say no.
One can say 'no' to a 'no' and get a 'yes', but a 'yes' to a 'yes' is still 'yes'. Can you see that?

3 hours ago, now is forever said:

the ego sits inside another ego inside another ego - like a matrioshka. the space in the middle is yourself. the house represents the shells ? it‘s a spiral, isn‘t it.

Have you been peeling the layers of the ego?
I tried to understand myself for many years, but at some point there was a transition, a spontaneous jump, that peeled most layers off and shown me the middle.
When you peel off all of the layers of the onion, there is no middle, because there is no more onion! 

Sorry @Zweistein for hijacking your journal. I hope that we're not intruding?

[Zweistein]

@tsuki @now is forever

I love this! Keep going! 

Who said this is "my" journal? ? It belongs to everyone who wants to join the conversation. (I don't own anything really. Well, who does actually, right?)

I'm digesting all the insights (also the wheel-throwing class!) and will comment more again when I'm ready ? ... 

 

 

[now is forever]

On 27.7.2018 at 7:35 PM, tsuki said:

More and more movies that I watch, even the completely mundane ones, simply scream enlightenment at me. It's unbelievable.
And yes, there seems to be a code. It almost feels like there is a giant conspiracy that tries to hide all of that deep knowledge in plain sight, trying to sell it as food for our addictions. I really can't wrap my head around it.

From one perspective, it's like these directors are infinitely intelligent making these movies, or that I am so brilliant that I read their unconscious minds.
Neither of which seem reasonable to me. I may simply be out of my mind, reading things that aren't there .

mhhh - basically i think it’s not a conspiracy, it’s just that artists learn to think in pictures. during education in product design (in sens of industrial design) we used to say you can’t reinvent the wheel, we used that to get less fixated on doing something really new, because then we could let go a little bit.

if you try to take the perspective of the artist, you maybe can understand, that they need some kind of foundation - they need it more, if they are talking of something that does not exist - how can you show something that does not exist physically? the meaning of the underlying story has to be translated somehow - and it also should be perceived by the audience.

they also work in different teams on the movie - so costumes may play a big role etc. they think about how to translate the story. you have different directors and people who all work together to make that happen. that brings about the depth of picture alignment. but it doesn’t make the movie automatically a good one. a lot of movies are flatliners even though they have deep pictures.

why because they don’t get the essence of what they are talking about out there.  or the story was already not it. it’s open for interpretation. so it’s certainly about the glases you are wearing, to understand them in a certain way - leo’s video about recontextualisation is supposedly about that, too.

and don’t forget how difficult it is to throw a movie out there. you already mostly only see the ones that had potential initially. the ones that are worth spending money, to earn some more money.

but sometimes you don’t get to see the really good ones. because no one wants to make them - it’s like baking bread - you can bake a bread that’s really healthy but fear not to sell enough or you can let it look healthy but the colour is made with sugar couleur.

in that sense, you can always learn something from a bad movie, too. may that be visually or content poor if you set that into some kind of context.

then of course, you are the director  of the movie you are watching. kopf kino - head cinema.

so it’s about how aware you are about the underlying content and the content of reality, if you get it right and at the same time about how aware you are about the pictures, to get hidden meanings right. 

might look like a pretty bad movie but on the second schell it is not and one level deeper it’s still hollow ? (something else than empty) - i usually ask for the intention to make it, to begin with, to decide if it’s hollow or not.

 

there we are already at the question about nihilism... i thought that through some day. what i kept was the last part of the thought, too: a no to a no is still a yes. a yes to a yes is also a yes. but in some cases a yes to a no can also be felt as a no but said as a yes.

so in the end it is a matter of how aligned one is to his/her own yes’s and no’s.

but nihilism as a philosophy and way of interacting turns to the yes at one point. while negativism may keep the no to the point of selfdestruction.

so it’s very important to separate negativity from the nihilism. as well as the false yes from the positivism. - think i’m still learning to do that, saying no more often. 

so a yes to a yes is only a yes if the yes seems to be very important. maybe because it is a no to a no.

Edited July 28, 2018 by now is forever

[Zweistein]

On 23.7.2018 at 1:32 AM, now is forever said:

i like how you are an archeologist of nature - how you retrace the stones and find stories for them. no one would have thought of them if not you. i like that. 

it showes how wonderful you also are with people and how sensitive you are to your loved ones too. if you can love stones, your heart must be a very soft and sensitive one.

you seem to belong to the swan family, too. one of the lonely „ugly“ ducklings. that’s why you like the seekers, they are kindred spirits. it’s quiet hard to find them in reality and also hard to loose them again because life leads them to different paths. would be nice if you have a grown up female swan in reality to share your everyday life. maybe one with little ducklings, too. 

your shadow - for me it’s a beautiful one, specially because it’s self expressed. but a beautiful shadow can sometimes also be heavy to carry. so be careful by unwiering it, do it slowly. and be careful to not let your kids heal your wounds regularly - it‘s part of mother child relationship and can make them strong in their heart, to know they have this ability. but they might think it’s their job to figure out a problem if it happens regularly. (that was very personal, but just meant for reflection). 

by the way doing this work now is the best gift you can give them for life - so it might make you strong to know that.

Contemplation takes time... 
I'm silently observing: Do I let my kids heal my wounds regularly? And I have not come to an answer yet... it's not an easy one to contemplate. In the meantime, let me show you the full drawing that I first used as my profile pic here in the forum. So yes, heavy weights on my shoulders!

It can bring us to the next questions: Are self-actualizers self-actualizing because they have "heavy weights" to carry (suffering/trauma)? But not everyone who suffered or experienced trauma ends up self-actualizing - some might also get stuck in some sort of depression or other coping mechanism (e.g. addictions), right? So then, is it only the "smarter" people who self-actualize? Haha, and how can we dare to say that we are smarter than others?
 

Edited July 29, 2018 by Zweistein

[Zweistein]

Holy shit - and I thought I was done taming dragons. I thought I was ready to plant some seeds... How could I be so freaking naive? 

@now is forever Thank you for meeting me in the underworld! 

So, no - no infinite potentials anymore now. It feels more like orbitals (specific regions of higher potentials).
And "blaming" on language contructs or word games doesn't "work" anymore either.

I will be diving for a while....
 

[now is forever]

@Zweistein hope it is also growing luck dragons! or transforming the dragon into a luck dragon!

the orbitals - it’s an interesting picture! i’ll try to integrate that, too. 

we are talking about possibilities here, aren’t we?

(bought two books: “ becoming super natural” from joe dispensa and “der weltgeist” from roger d. nelson)

[now is forever]

@Zweistein @tsuki about nihilism in general and why nihilism is important and a strength in my perspective (took me some time to bring that into a thought):

i think nihilism is indeed the power of rejection. people who go on this path, reject the inherent meaning of the way everything around them is organized. so they start deconstructing it, until they see it’s all just chaos, but also am able to see how society constructs this chaos. a true nihilist is also saying more no to the world than a positivist. nihilism maybe is also more often a male energy, so nihilists often work also more with the mind tool. learning to think like that, they are able to deconstruct reality for others - because they know to ask the deconstructing questions.

positivistic thinking people always seem to find meaning in everything, sometimes without asking questions. they just take it for granted. i see myself as a yes sayer so if i meet with nihilists they trigger me to rethink my world construction. so i have to align with truth to not loose myself - some people might counterreact, because they don’t have a lot true ideals to cling to. but with an open mind it’s all about learning. 

so @Zweistein yes selfactualizers are all some kind of seekers - but some are more and some are less seekers of truth. it’s not better or worse it’s just the will to make a difference.

[Zweistein]

53 minutes ago, now is forever said:

@Zweistein hope it is also growing luck dragons! or transforming the dragon into a luck dragon!

the orbitals - it’s an interesting picture! i’ll try to integrate that, too. 

we are talking about possibilities here, aren’t we?

Thank you @now is forever! 

Yes, orbitals is a term used in chemistry to display where the chances are highest for electrons to occur around an atomic core. Depending on the number of protons, orbitals have a different shape:

 

[now is forever]

@Zweistein whaaaa thank you!!!  the eight in 3d, and a butterfly ?, too.

Edited July 30, 2018 by now is forever

[tsuki]

23 hours ago, Zweistein said:

It can bring us to the next questions: Are self-actualizers self-actualizing because they have "heavy weights" to carry (suffering/trauma)? But not everyone who suffered or experienced trauma ends up self-actualizing - some might also get stuck in some sort of depression or other coping mechanism (e.g. addictions), right? So then, is it only the "smarter" people who self-actualize? Haha, and how can we dare to say that we are smarter than others?

@Zweistein The key component that I identified as the difference between 'us' and 'them' is what I call a short-circuit.

A short circuit is an ability to create a positive feedback loop between suffering and pleasure.
'They' seek pleasure and are repelled by suffering. The direction feels like willingly chosen, but it is a mechanical navigation in relation to these opposites. Pleasure is positive, suffering is negative. However, the more one avoids negativity, the more negative it becomes. It is then, a closed feedback loop of reinforcing the poles by seeking positive and avoiding the negative.

'We' have this ability to treat suffering as something positive and pleasure as something negative. In the act of willingly going against the flow of polarities, we upset the hierarchy of strength. It is either that polarity becomes smaller and suffering lessens (but so does pleasure), or that we become more resistant to both. This way we have this freedom of choice and opportunity to sail anywhere. At some point however, any place becomes exactly the same, just like on ocean that is still. Any place becomes 'here' and any time becomes 'now'. In doing that, everything becomes 'I'. 

This stillness is too intensive to most. They call it boredom. They treat it with disgust.
They seem to miss that boredom is not the feeling that everything is uninteresting.
Boredom is the feeling of everything being equally interesting. Without any point of reference.
This feeling of everything being equal is what most identify as suffering, but what it is is simply stillness.
It is peace. Bearing with it is what shows the bliss of life.

I am a nihilist, aren't I? Hmmm...