You Don't Have To Live In A Cave... Or Do You?

[Jan Odvarko]

"You don't have to live in a cave or become a monk in order to achieve enlightenment."

That's what many wise people say. Although I agree that doing so would in most cases be an overreaction, looking at it from the other side, living in the western society makes the task of dissolving one's sense of self extremely hard to impossible, IMO, because no matter how diligently one tries, the false image of self is consistently reinforced by the environment - shared assumptions, beliefs, and conceptions (or misconceptions if you like.) It's difficult to fight it.

Do you think it is possible for a person to become enlightened while having a 9-5 job where they have to fully focus on the task in hand? Does it make the endeavour more difficult?
Do you know of anyone who actually achieved enlightenment in such an environment?
What is your idea of a conductive environment that would be at the same time realistic from the western perspective?

Thanks.

[Jan Odvarko]

Thank you @Pinocchio. Just watching the video... very inspiring!

[99th_monkey]

@Pinocchio  is right, there's more distractions but it provides more "fuel" for your work. More fuel to burn ...

[WelcometoReality]

3 hours ago, Jan Odvarko said:

"You don't have to live in a cave or become a monk in order to achieve enlightenment."

That's what many wise people say. Although I agree that doing so would in most cases be an overreaction, looking at it from the other side, living in the western society makes the task of dissolving one's sense of self extremely hard to impossible, IMO, because no matter how diligently one tries, the false image of self is consistently reinforced by the environment - shared assumptions, beliefs, and conceptions (or misconceptions if you like.) It's difficult to fight it.

 

This is just a smoke screen of the mind. You don't have to dissolve your sense of self. You just need to transcend yourself. Dissolving will happen by itself once you're grounded in what you really are.

3 hours ago, Jan Odvarko said:

 

Do you think it is possible for a person to become enlightened while having a 9-5 job where they have to fully focus on the task in hand? Does it make the endeavour more difficult?
Do you know of anyone who actually achieved enlightenment in such an environment?
What is your idea of a conductive environment that would be at the same time realistic from the western perspective?

Thanks.

Yes I do. 

How about right where your sitting now.

[abrakamowse]

You can do nothing to become enlightened

[Jan Odvarko]

2 hours ago, abrakamowse said:

You can do nothing to become enlightened

Like if it was easy! 

[Ayla]

2 minutes ago, Jan Odvarko said:

Like if it was easy! 

IT IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[WelcometoReality]

13 minutes ago, Jan Odvarko said:

Like if it was easy! 

Yes do it right now!

[Jan Odvarko]

@Ayla, @WelcometoReality, I got to confess something here. I still have this conceptual view of myself being here and enlightenment being somewhere there in the distance. And in order to get there, some hard work has to be done. Sounds logical, doesn't it? After all, if enlightenment was easily attainable, I reckon every second person would have succeeded in that pursuit, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Yes, I guess my habitual view is completely wrong here, and I should be saying I'm in fact a part of emptiness, or the emptiness itself, and I always was and there is no such thing as here and there, and the only little step really needed is to experience it. However I must confess something is telling me that some hard work in an optimal environment has to be done and there is no other way to get enlightened. That's why I'm looking for an optimal environment. Or am I wrong on this front too?

Some people do nothing and gain nothing. Some people do nothing and gain enlightenment. What is the magic difference between them? Is it motivation? Determination? Or is it given?

[WelcometoReality]

@Jan Odvarko  

You are in your head right now and your mind is creating all these pit traps get out of your mind. These questions does not need an answer. Sense what you are. Dont think.

It's so damn hard because everyone is thinking that they have to do all this before they get enlightened. But when does everyone get enlightened? Is it in the future? Or is it now? 

[Jan Odvarko]

12 minutes ago, WelcometoReality said:

@Jan Odvarko  

You are in your head right now and your mind is creating all these pit traps get out of your mind. These questions does not need an answer. Sense what you are. Dont think.

It's so damn hard because everyone is thinking that they have to do all this before they get enlightened. But when does everyone get enlightened? Is it in the future? Or is it now? 

Thanks @WelcometoReality for such a nice splash of cold water on my face 

Edited February 23, 2016 by Jan Odvarko

[abrakamowse]

 

 

[Leo Gura]

If you're serious about getting enlightenment, it would be a good idea to go into a period of seclusion. Doesn't have to be a cave. Could be your vacation time, could be a holiday, could be a retreat or workshop, could be camping in the wilderness, could be reducing your full-time job to part-time. Get creative.

In modern society, seclusion is in a sense easier than ever because foods, water, and shelter are cheaper than ever. And you could work at a job for 1 year, save up some money, then quit for a year and get your enlightenment handled. Then find a new job.

Realistically you will NOT get enlightened without spending dozens or even hundreds of hours of time in continuous isolation. You need to be able to take 100 hours off straight and just sit there and do nothing. Without this, it will be very hard.

Ralston told me he stopped keeping track of time after he did 5000 hours of contemplation. And that's only when he stopped keeping track! Lol. He's done WAY more I'd bet.

You're gonna need INSANE amounts of time if you want to pierce to the very depths of Truth. The first enlightenment experience is much easier though.

[DizIzMikey]

Focus on nothing, if it seems too hard, you are, you are making it too hard, maybe? 

[99th_monkey]

its very possible to do it without seclusion, more detraction but your life is constantly kept in the foreground. like on the front line. constant things to question, keeps you very grounded. i think if i walked off into the woods for a month i wouldnt be able to come back.  BUT im imagining. Easier to "see" in a sense. 

this is all crap anyway because everything out there has nothing to do with it. 

[Jan Odvarko]

4 hours ago, Pinocchio said:

I actually did the quitting thing too. I'd been alone in my apartment for well over a year, living off of savings, before I started working again to support myself.

Did you do it specifically to reach some spiritual goal? Do you think, looking back, you made a progress during that period?

[Ayla]

8 hours ago, Jan Odvarko said:

I still have this conceptual view of myself being here and enlightenment being somewhere there in the distance. And in order to get there, some hard work has to be done. Sounds logical, doesn't it? After all, if enlightenment was easily attainable, I reckon every second person would have succeeded in that pursuit, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

 

Yes, the fact that your body and everything else in this plane is experienced within time, makes it that you perceive that you need to "go" somewhere or "do" something, but the "real reality" is that you already are enlightened, only you cannot let go of the things that tell you that you are not. Also, you are not a part of "emptiness", you ARE emptiness, expressed through some kind of "concoction" of different materials, more or less solid (body, images, thoughts, concepts, etc)

Think of this as looking for your glasses frantically. There's gonna be a moment, where you will understand that your glasses are already there on your nose. 

[WelcometoReality]

@Jan Odvarko just glad to be of help.

[Jan Odvarko]

2 hours ago, Ayla said:

only you cannot let go of the things that tell you that you are not.

See that's the thing @Ayla, in order to be able to let go of these things telling us otherwise, some change has to take place, even if only in our point of view. And that change IMO takes some time and hard work. That's what I'm trying to say, just my choice of words is a little clumsy.

I like your analogy with glasses BTW.

Maybe I'm already as enlightened as everyone else, maybe I am emptiness itself whether I realise it or not, but no matter how we put it, this doesn't help us to experience the truth until we actually do some hard work and progressively open ourselves to it.

A prisoner might find it encouraging to know that he was in fact free all along and the only thing that stands in his way are the cell bars. That doesn't change the fact that it takes some time to break out the cell. See how long it took Wentworth Miller, and he was a freaking smart guy who could make an origami duck.

[Emily]

11 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

@Jan Odvarko  

But when does everyone get enlightened? Is it in the future? Or is it now? 

Now. Because that's all we ever have.

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You're gonna need INSANE amounts of time if you want to pierce to the very depths of Truth. The first enlightenment experience is much easier though.

But time is an illusion, no? There's only ever now...